The Reality of Rebuilding

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on March 10, 2016, 06:48:37 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 02:26:32 PM

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles


Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Willing to give Mullin and staff a pass this year and next but did any of the above coaches not have any coaching experience before they took over a major D-1 conference team?

No they did not, which I think strengthens the argument I guess I'm trying to make. Even these proven and experienced coaches struggled with overmatched rosters in their first season at their schools

Crean was the coach of Marquette in the Big East
Kruger was head Coach in the Big 10, SEC & NBA before Oklahoma
Bennett was coach in Pac 10

Understand what you are saying but some of these guys had a lot more experience then Coach Mullin

Unless you meant to say they did have experience prior to their current jobs...

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 06:52:36 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on March 10, 2016, 06:48:37 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 02:26:32 PM

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles


Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Willing to give Mullin and staff a pass this year and next but did any of the above coaches not have any coaching experience before they took over a major D-1 conference team?

No they did not, which I think strengthens the argument I guess I'm trying to make. Even these proven and experienced coaches struggled with overmatched rosters in their first season at their schools

Crean was the coach of Marquette in the Big East
Kruger was head Coach in the Big 10, SEC & NBA before Oklahoma
Bennett was coach in Pac 10

Understand what you are saying but some of these guys had a lot more experience then Coach Mullin

Unless you meant to say they did have experience prior to their current jobs...

Yeah I'm saying that even guys that were proven at other places (like the ones you mentioned) struggled in year one at a new place with a barren roster, so this is not isolated to our season this year and cannot be blamed on Mullin's lack of coaching experience. Doesn't mean he'll ultimately be as successful as any or all of them but just means established coaches have also struggled in year one before turning things around

Quote from: goredmen on March 10, 2016, 06:52:36 PM

Not that I should have to explain how the season's poor record isn't really on Mullin and the staff, but it appears that somebody has to here. The fact that seems to go unremembered here is this is a total rebuild and many coaches that have been in much better positions have struggled in their first seasons at a new school just to turn them around later. Here's a look at how some of today's most successful and consistent programs fared in their first season with their current head coach.

Important to keep in mind here that only Tom Crean really inherited a roster as bad as the one our current staff did. Every other coach entered tough, but not nearly as bad of situations as Mullin and Co.

Tom Crean: 6-25 in season 1, 10-21 in season 2, 12-20 in season 3.
Since: Has made the tournament 4 of the last 5 years, 3 of those years as a 4 seed or better

Tony Bennett: 15-16 in his first season at UVA (lost 10 of last 11)
Since: Tournament 4 of last 5 years, 3 straight years of being 2 seed or better, a couple ACC regular season titles


Lon Kruger: 15-16 in his first season at Oklahoma
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances, 3 straight as a 5 seed or better

Gregg Marshall: 11-20 in first season at Wichita
Since: 4 straight tournament appearances including an undefeated regular season

Matt Painter: 9-19 in first season at Purdue followed by 6 straight NCAA appearances
Since: Led Purdue to 6 straight tourney appearances

Larry Krystkowiak: 6-25 in first season at Utah
Since: 2 straight tourney appearances, consistent Pac 12 contender

Mick Cronin: 11-19 in first season at Cinci
Since: This year will probably be his 6th straight tourney appearance


Now, this doesn't mean that Mullin and this staff are guaranteed to succeed but this should reinforce the fact that this season's failures have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not this staff will finally be able to make this program a consistent winner again.

While some lament a perceived lack of improvement as the season went on, the fact is we competed with a few NCAA tournament teams towards the end of the season with one of the worst rosters in BE history.

This season sucked for sure, but we aren't the first team every to go through a season like this and it is not a death sentence by any stretch.

Crean was the coach of Marquette in the Big East
Kruger was head Coach in the Big 10, SEC & NBA before Oklahoma
Bennett was coach in Pac 10

Understand what you are saying but some of these guys had a lot more experience then Coach Mullin

Unless you meant to say they did have experience prior to their current jobs...

Krystkowiak also coached two Montana teams to the NCAA Tournament during his only two years as head coach for the Grizzlies.  He was also a college assistant for a few years before he was a head coach at Montana, and was an NBA assistant for several seasons (also an NBA head coach for one season for the Milwaukee Bucks) before taking over the Utes.

Painter was a longtime assistant coach before coaching Southern Illinois to the NCAA Tournament in his only year as the head coach. 

Marshall was also a longtime assistant coach  (8 years under John Kresse at the College of Charleston) before going to Winthrop and coaching 'em to the NCAA Tournament 7 out of the 9 years he was at the helm. 

Cronin was an assistant for several years under Huggins (Cincinnati) and Pitino (Louisville) before getting the head coaching job at Murray State.  He coached the Racers to the NCAA Tournament twice in his three years at Murray State. 

Kruger has had some form of success wherever he's also coached, outside of his stint in the NBA (Atlanta Hawks).  He also coached Florida to the Final Four a little over two decades ago.

I know the point you're attempting to make, but those coaches came with lots of experience (even, some success at one point or another) before they took over at their respective schools.  Does this mean Mullin can't have similar success?  No, it doesn't at all.  Hopefully, for our sake, he does have similar or better success.  But it doesn't change the fact those coaches had been at it awhile before their initial difficulties at their current spots.

I dont know why you would disagree what I presented is all factually true. Look at the existing team and recruiting cycle from last year pre-Mullin.  Sima, Ron, Durand, Ellison , Williams, and Owens were the only pure Mullin recruits. Everything else was there already or was in the process of being built.

And I understand your concept of the off-the court issues and limits to where they would go. Yes I do think NIT is good gauge for what that group would have brought.

The point of my post was not the merits of whether a house-cleaning was warranted or not. This thread focused on comparing how bad wins/loss wise of teams that were inherited by new coaches with a bare cupboard. I am just pointing out the cupboard was not as bare as people think it was whether you liked the players or recruits fit for our program or not. Talent wise and potential  wins/losses wise we were not exactly that empty. And  much of the people we have all been talking about as future contributors- Yakwe, Lovett, Mussini all had the relationship built already. The Euro pipeline was also technically established through Amar. 

Let's be fair...Irrespective of how you or any of us feel about Lavin's firing...those guys were NOT on board yet and still had to be recruited...