Here is the deal

The program has been irrelevant for what 25 years. First two Jarvis years were outliers. Since our "Glory years" of losing every year in 1st or 2nd round of tourney, we have not had a sustainable period of success or a coach that wasn't eventually hated by our apathetic fan base. Granted some of the coaches like Norm Roberts deserved the remaining fans wraith. One coach (Fran) ran himself out of town and Jarvis deservedly wore out his welcome.

Which brings us to Lavin. Bloward, shaky game coach, drama Queen, etc. However based on the program's history, I felt he did enough outside getting a slam dunk replacement to get an extension. I posted as much at the time. Now I had no faith that we would or could hire a quality replacement. I also had no faith a quality replacement would come here. I base this on the fact that since 1992 we haven't had a quality coach with any kind of staying power. That is not my opinion, that is based on 26 years worth of proof.

Which brings us to Chris Mullin. We are not Duke. We are not Kansas. We are not Syracuse. We are not Nova. Heck recently we are not Creighton or Butler.  We do have some history that some on here cling to like a life preserver that we are something we are not and probably never were. You can't have it both ways. Louie, Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Sealy with all due respect to the guys that precede my time as a fan are royalty for us. No one could have foreseen this Lovett thing. Or maybe we should have considering his and our past. But if Lovett thing never happened, we were right on track. Based on who we were ,what we have been and what we will replace him with, Chris Mullin deserves more than two and a half years before people start talking crazy. I am not saying he should not be criticized or eventually replaced. I am just saying that it is too soon for this nonsense!!!!

Chris Mullin = Santa Claus for St. John’s fans over 50

Chris Mullin = Santa Claus for St. John’s fans over 50

If Mullin is Santa that makes Danny Hurley the tooth fairy.

Chris Mullin = Santa Claus for St. John’s fans over 50

In 85 I was 12 going on 13. Do the math.
So who is your Santa Claus Anthony Mason jr?

We've done this over and over again with Lavin, but the reason I personally wanted him gone was because he grossly underachieved with the talent he had and we were set up for another couple rebuilding type years after the 2015 season whether he stayed or not. It was no lock that Rysheed and Obekpa were going to stay had Lavin stayed, and even if they did we still would not have been a good team in 15-16.

Now, I agree it is too early to want to fire Mullin. To expect huge results in year 3 after what he inherited is a ton to ask of any coach. That being said, we shouldn't be 0-5 at this point either and it doesn't take a basketball genius to see that there are huge deficiencies in the coaching. I don't think he should be fired but it's time for him to swallow his pride a little bit and make some changes on the coaching staff. We absolutely cannot enter next season with these same 4 coaches.

Ideally, what this program needs is a young, hungry coach whose career depends on being successful here. Lavin got lazy because he didn't have the fire and passion needed to win because he knew he had a comfy TV job waiting for him if needed it. I'm sure Mullin has the fire and passion to win but he's another guy who will be just fine if he isn't coaching anymore. We need a young up and coming guy to come in here and work his tail off and if that means he leaves after 5 or so years for a better job, that would be great because that would mean he won here.

Jay Wright came from Hofstra. Chris Mack was an assistant at Xavier before becoming their head coach. Kevin Willard came from Iona. Those are the 3 best teams in our conference this year. No reason we can't find a guy like that

We've done this over and over again with Lavin, but the reason I personally wanted him gone was because he grossly underachieved with the talent he had and we were set up for another couple rebuilding type years after the 2015 season whether he stayed or not. It was no lock that Rysheed and Obekpa were going to stay had Lavin stayed, and even if they did we still would not have been a good team in 15-16.

Now, I agree it is too early to want to fire Mullin. To expect huge results in year 3 after what he inherited is a ton to ask of any coach. That being said, we shouldn't be 0-5 at this point either and it doesn't take a basketball genius to see that there are huge deficiencies in the coaching. I don't think he should be fired but it's time for him to swallow his pride a little bit and make some changes on the coaching staff. We absolutely cannot enter next season with these same 4 coaches.

Ideally, what this program needs is a young, hungry coach whose career depends on being successful here. Lavin got lazy because he didn't have the fire and passion needed to win because he knew he had a comfy TV job waiting for him if needed it. I'm sure Mullin has the fire and passion to win but he's another guy who will be just fine if he isn't coaching anymore. We need a young up and coming guy to come in here and work his tail off and if that means he leaves after 5 or so years for a better job, that would be great because that would mean he won here.

Jay Wright came from Hofstra. Chris Mack was an assistant at Xavier before becoming their head coach. Kevin Willard came from Iona. Those are the 3 best teams in our conference this year. No reason we can't find a guy like that

There was definitely stretches in wrights and Williards career at those schools where our fan base would have turned on them and turned on them fast. Mullin has not impressed me what so ever as a game coach but I’m not trying to start over yet.

Kevin Willard? Give me a break. How quickly people forget he sold his soul for this current class and will be a bottom dweller moving forward after this

Quote from: goredmen on January 12, 2018, 01:38:23 PM

We've done this over and over again with Lavin, but the reason I personally wanted him gone was because he grossly underachieved with the talent he had and we were set up for another couple rebuilding type years after the 2015 season whether he stayed or not. It was no lock that Rysheed and Obekpa were going to stay had Lavin stayed, and even if they did we still would not have been a good team in 15-16.

Now, I agree it is too early to want to fire Mullin. To expect huge results in year 3 after what he inherited is a ton to ask of any coach. That being said, we shouldn't be 0-5 at this point either and it doesn't take a basketball genius to see that there are huge deficiencies in the coaching. I don't think he should be fired but it's time for him to swallow his pride a little bit and make some changes on the coaching staff. We absolutely cannot enter next season with these same 4 coaches.

Ideally, what this program needs is a young, hungry coach whose career depends on being successful here. Lavin got lazy because he didn't have the fire and passion needed to win because he knew he had a comfy TV job waiting for him if needed it. I'm sure Mullin has the fire and passion to win but he's another guy who will be just fine if he isn't coaching anymore. We need a young up and coming guy to come in here and work his tail off and if that means he leaves after 5 or so years for a better job, that would be great because that would mean he won here.

Jay Wright came from Hofstra. Chris Mack was an assistant at Xavier before becoming their head coach. Kevin Willard came from Iona. Those are the 3 best teams in our conference this year. No reason we can't find a guy like that

There was definitely stretches in wrights and Williards career at those schools where our fan base would have turned on them and turned on them fast. Mullin has not impressed me what so ever as a game coach but I’m not trying to start over yet.

I agree, and like I said I do think it is too early to fire him and start over, not that he would ever get fired anyway. And our fan base may be crazy but there are definitely other fanbases just as crazy out there including the SHU one. They wanted Willard's head on a stake not too long ago but he made a gamble that Lavin was willing to make and he turned it around in a hurry

Kevin Willard? Give me a break. How quickly people forget he sold his soul for this current class and will be a bottom dweller moving forward after this

Who cares. We can't even dream about the success he's had over the last 3 years

Quote from: goredmen on January 12, 2018, 01:38:23 PM

We've done this over and over again with Lavin, but the reason I personally wanted him gone was because he grossly underachieved with the talent he had and we were set up for another couple rebuilding type years after the 2015 season whether he stayed or not. It was no lock that Rysheed and Obekpa were going to stay had Lavin stayed, and even if they did we still would not have been a good team in 15-16.

Now, I agree it is too early to want to fire Mullin. To expect huge results in year 3 after what he inherited is a ton to ask of any coach. That being said, we shouldn't be 0-5 at this point either and it doesn't take a basketball genius to see that there are huge deficiencies in the coaching. I don't think he should be fired but it's time for him to swallow his pride a little bit and make some changes on the coaching staff. We absolutely cannot enter next season with these same 4 coaches.

Ideally, what this program needs is a young, hungry coach whose career depends on being successful here. Lavin got lazy because he didn't have the fire and passion needed to win because he knew he had a comfy TV job waiting for him if needed it. I'm sure Mullin has the fire and passion to win but he's another guy who will be just fine if he isn't coaching anymore. We need a young up and coming guy to come in here and work his tail off and if that means he leaves after 5 or so years for a better job, that would be great because that would mean he won here.

Jay Wright came from Hofstra. Chris Mack was an assistant at Xavier before becoming their head coach. Kevin Willard came from Iona. Those are the 3 best teams in our conference this year. No reason we can't find a guy like that

There was definitely stretches in wrights and Williards career at those schools where our fan base would have turned on them and turned on them fast. Mullin has not impressed me what so ever as a game coach but I’m not trying to start over yet.

Exactly. I get Mullin is not off to a good start and never coached before. But if this was Joe Schmoe the up and coming hot assistant coach at Kansas and we got off to this start people would be calling for his head as well. This is not a quick fix program. That is my only point. If you are not going to give Mullin a leash, who would you give one to? An established good coach with a track record is not coming here!

The program has been irrelevant for what 25 years. First two Jarvis years were outliers. Since our "Glory years" of losing every year in 1st or 2nd round of tourney, we have not had a sustainable period of success or a coach that wasn't eventually hated by our apathetic fan base. Granted some of the coaches like Norm Roberts deserved the remaining fans wraith. One coach (Fran) ran himself out of town and Jarvis deservedly wore out his welcome.

Which brings us to Lavin. Bloward, shaky game coach, drama Queen, etc. However based on the program's history, I felt he did enough outside getting a slam dunk replacement to get an extension. I posted as much at the time. Now I had no faith that we would or could hire a quality replacement. I also had no faith a quality replacement would come here. I base this on the fact that since 1992 we haven't had a quality coach with any kind of staying power. That is not my opinion, that is based on 26 years worth of proof.

Which brings us to Chris Mullin. We are not Duke. We are not Kansas. We are not Syracuse. We are not Nova. Heck recently we are not Creighton or Butler.  We do have some history that some on here cling to like a life preserver that we are something we are not and probably never were. You can't have it both ways. Louie, Mullin, Berry, Jackson, Sealy with all due respect to the guys that precede my time as a fan are royalty for us. No one could have foreseen this Lovett thing. Or maybe we should have considering his and our past. But if Lovett thing never happened, we were right on track. Based on who we were ,what we have been and what we will replace him with, Chris Mullin deserves more than two and a half years before people start talking crazy. I am not saying he should not be criticized or eventually replaced. I am just saying that it is too soon for this nonsense!!!!

More or less agree with this. However, I had no issue moving on from Lavin - thought he was lazy and his heart wasn't in it - with the understanding that there was no slam dunk hire/silver bullet. This is clearly not an easy place to succeed otherwise someone would have figured it out over the last 25 yrs.

 

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

You can think Lavin was lazy, full of hot air, etc. But we are St. John's. We had no business firing a coach who brought us to our first NCAAT in a decade, three 20 win seasons, and a 2nd tourney appearance in his final year.

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

+1    all the rest is white noise. keep comparing him to Lavin, Norm, blah blah  blah blah.

You can think Lavin was lazy, full of hot air, etc. But we are St. John's. We had no business firing a coach who brought us to our first NCAAT in a decade, three 20 win seasons, and a 2nd tourney appearance in his final year.

Frankly, I think it would've been 3 NCAA Tournament appearances, if Harrison wasn't causing issues during the 2012-2013 season.  The team was 8-6 in the conference (16-10 overall)  when he was kicked off the team.  They were spanked in two games (vs. Pitt & @ Notre Dame), but lost two, winnable games (losing by 3 @ Providence & losing by 2 on a last second shot vs. Marquette during the last game of the season) to close out the regular season at 8-10 (16-14 overall).

IMO, with Harrison, they would've finished up at 10-8 in the conference (18-12 overall), and likely gotten themselves into the dance.  I remember we were clearly on the bubble before Harrison's dismissal.  All of this was done in a much tougher Big East.   

Some continue to spout off Lavin being lazy and such, but some of that stuff is exaggerated, and the agenda-driven, insecure loudmouths were the one's who started that stuff and kept it going.  He may have not put as much effort into things as he did when he first got the job, but he surely wasn't some overly-lethargic coach.  There were also some things going on during the last season and half that was probably eating at him, as well. 

Regardless, it's old news.  Now, if some of y'all wanna speak of lethargic....... 

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

After 5 years Willard and the Hall were a mess.  He did what he had to do with Tiny and Antigua and VERY fortunately for him it has worked out over the past three years.  That said, their fan base wanted him gone last year 2/3 of the way through the Big East season when it appeared they weren't making the tourney.  In 7 years he has not won a single tournament game.  He's been extremely extremely fortunate in getting breaks (like Angel staying his senior year - what kids with those accolades stay that long even if they aren't going right to the NBA).  He was close to taking the South Florida job last year when the season was tanking and Angel was halfway out the door, but once again he got some breaks and it has all pulled together.

Quote from: Redy2Rumble on January 12, 2018, 01:53:55 PM

Kevin Willard? Give me a break. How quickly people forget he sold his soul for this current class and will be a bottom dweller moving forward after this

Who cares. We can't even dream about the success he's had over the last 3 years

Quote from: Johnny23 on January 12, 2018, 02:21:38 PM

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

You're referring to Coach K.  Different times, WASJU. 

Guess what, though?  I, once heard him on a radio show years ago talking about he knew he had to win that fourth season because he probably was gonna get fired.  He likely bought himself a 4th year because he had a fairly, good first season (made it to the 3rd round of the NIT), and he had a terrific recruiting class the year before that was gonna be sophomore's (Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and David Henderson) during his 4th season, and a one of the top point freshman point guards coming in that season (Tommy Amaker).

He won that fourth season, and has never turned back.  In his own words, it was (paraphrased) a "MUST win" season, and he came through.

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:44:22 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on January 12, 2018, 02:21:38 PM

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

You're referring to Coach K.  Different times, WASJU. 

Guess what, though?  I, once heard him on a radio show years ago talking about he knew he had to win that fourth season because he probably was gonna get fired.  He likely bought himself a 4th year because he had a fairly, good first season (made it to the 3rd round of the NIT), and he had a terrific recruiting class the year before that was gonna be sophomore's (Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and David Henderson) during his 4th season, and a one of the top point freshman point guards coming in that season (Tommy Amaker).

He won that fourth season, and has never turned back.  In his own words, it was (paraphrased) a "MUST win" season, and he came through.

If Lovett thing does not happen we win 17 or 18 and most would at least be mollified if not satisfied.

After 5 years Willard and the Hall were a mess.  He did what he had to do with Tiny and Antigua and VERY fortunately for him it has worked out over the past three years.  That said, their fan base wanted him gone last year 2/3 of the way through the Big East season when it appeared they weren't making the tourney.  In 7 years he has not won a single tournament game.  He's been extremely extremely fortunate in getting breaks (like Angel staying his senior year - what kids with those accolades stay that long even if they aren't going right to the NBA).  He was close to taking the South Florida job last year when the season was tanking and Angel was halfway out the door, but once again he got some breaks and it has all pulled together.

Quote from: goredmen on January 12, 2018, 01:59:23 PM

Quote from: Redy2Rumble on January 12, 2018, 01:53:55 PM

Kevin Willard? Give me a break. How quickly people forget he sold his soul for this current class and will be a bottom dweller moving forward after this

Who cares. We can't even dream about the success he's had over the last 3 years

Again, who cares how it happened? He won a conference championship, will have his team in the NCAA Tournament for a 3rd straight year and will be a top 25 team all season. He did what he needed to do to win. As long as he doesn't get them in trouble with the NCAA then he will have been a big success there if he leaves after this season.  We'd kill for a 3 year stretch like that