Derwin Kitchen

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2009, 06:23:32 PM »
Cedrick Jackson
               Points    Reb  Ass  TO    FG%  3PT%  FT%
Freshman     4.1     3.6   1.7  1.3    34%   23%   59%
Sophomore   4.4     3.3   1.7  1.6    36%   12%   47%

Yes that says 12% for 3 point% in his sophomore year.  It makes Boothe's 22% look lethal.  Almost twice as good a shooter. ;D

Don't get me wrong...he played hard for us and was a good defender but he did not belong in the Big East. 
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

boo3

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2009, 06:32:09 PM »
  Agree 100%  Johnny.  When Cedric was here he was one of the worst offensive guards i've ever seen.  Kudos to him for improving as much as he has.  Don't believe it would have occurred here,especially with our fearless leader.

sjd8886

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2009, 06:44:40 PM »
idk what to say about that except he averaged 30ppg in hs, then came here, put up those numbers, then went to Cleveland state and is doing what hes doing now...norm is a cancer

sjd8886

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2009, 06:58:26 PM »
seriously though, ced was amazing in hs...then comes to st johns and right away is garbage...for two seasons...in every stat category...then again, completely flip flops...it obviously was this program and norm...look at it

Year  Team          Min     PPG     FG%  FT%  3PT%  RB     AST     STL     BLK
2004    St. John's       24.4    4.1    .339    .657    .231    98    46    48    6
2005    St. John's       24.0    4.4    .358    .473    .125    89    45    36    5
2007    Cleveland State     31.1    13.9    .419    .686    .390    166    168    88    10
2008    Cleveland State     33.1    10.5    .382    .623    .303    201    190    104    7

sjd8886

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2009, 07:00:23 PM »
well it seems even though i fixed it, the stats got jumbled again when i posted, so heres the link

http://ncaabasketball.fanhouse.com/players/cedric-jackson/38100

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2009, 09:38:48 PM »
level of competition has a lot to do with it.  And high school averages mean nothing.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 09:39:58 PM by jumpinjohnny »
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Marillac

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2009, 09:50:34 PM »
Cedrick Jackson
               Points    Reb  Ass  TO    FG%  3PT%  FT%
Freshman     4.1     3.6   1.7  1.3    34%   23%   59%
Sophomore   4.4     3.3   1.7  1.6    36%   12%   47%

Yes that says 12% for 3 point% in his sophomore year.  It makes Boothe's 22% look lethal.  Almost twice as good a shooter. ;D

Don't get me wrong...he played hard for us and was a good defender but he did not belong in the Big East.

Do you even watch basketball games?  He beat Syracuse this year on the road.  He stifled Flynn when they were matched up.  It was VERY impressive.  If you are keeping track, they beat two very good Big East teams and lost only one cloes game all on the road the last two years.  We haven't beaten one good team in the Big East in two years.  We were 0 for the season against the top nine.

If you are so big on stats, how about the fact that Ced shot 39% from three last year as a two guard for Cleveland State.  They beat Florida State, Butler, and West Virgnia. 

This year he was moved to PG and early on a lot of his shots were off the bounce.  He was shooting in the teens halfway through the year, but the coach took that priviledge away from him and now his three pt % is over 30%.  In two years it is higher than ANY STJ player on our current roster. 

Stats don't tell the whole story.  Most players shoot in the teens or low twenties for shots they have to create from three.  When you can set your feet and step into it, good shooters can easily hit 40-50%.  It comes to selection and need.  If you watched any CSU games you would know that their best player, J'Nathan Bullock is horribly inconsistent.  He went scoreless in several halves and the pressure fell squarely on Ced's shoulders to produce in those situations.

How do you explain Ced averaging 36% from three the last two years? 

Marillac

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2009, 10:27:48 PM »
level of competition has a lot to do with it.  And high school averages mean nothing.

How is this for level of competition over the last two years for Ced:

Butler (SIX TIMES!)
Kansas State
Ohio State
Florida State
Syracuse
WV
Washington
South Florida
George Mason
Valpo 5x
Dayton


Their OOC Strength of Schedule on KenPom.com is 24.  STJ's is 289.

Their RPI is 54. St. John's is 143. Overall SOS is 74 for STJ and 113 for Cleveland State.  Not worlds apart.

Look at the RPI's they played this year alone for CSU:

11 (won)
23 (lost)
23 (lost)
23 (won)
14 (lost)
21 (lost)
72 (won)
72 (lost)
72 (won)
82 (lost)
95 (lost)
95 (won)

And you can add at least one more top 30 RPI to that in the tournament.

STJ was 0-9 against teams in the top 50 of the RPI.  CSU was 2-4 against top 25 with a game coming up next weekend.  Is it really THAT different?  STJ was 3-16 against the top 100 RPI.  CSU was 5-7.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 10:34:23 PM by Marillac »

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2009, 11:39:11 PM »
Ced got better cause he got older and mo used to playin DI ball. He playin at a lower level, which help, plus he playin fo Gary Waters who is a hella good coach despite what went down at Rutgers. The brother is also a fifth year senior, which make a serious difference.
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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2009, 11:54:28 PM »
Cedrick Jackson
               Points    Reb  Ass  TO    FG%  3PT%  FT%
Freshman     4.1     3.6   1.7  1.3    34%   23%   59%
Sophomore   4.4     3.3   1.7  1.6    36%   12%   47%

Yes that says 12% for 3 point% in his sophomore year.  It makes Boothe's 22% look lethal.  Almost twice as good a shooter. ;D

Don't get me wrong...he played hard for us and was a good defender but he did not belong in the Big East.

Do you even watch basketball games?  He beat Syracuse this year on the road.  He stifled Flynn when they were matched up.  It was VERY impressive.  If you are keeping track, they beat two very good Big East teams and lost only one cloes game all on the road the last two years.  We haven't beaten one good team in the Big East in two years.  We were 0 for the season against the top nine.

If you are so big on stats, how about the fact that Ced shot 39% from three last year as a two guard for Cleveland State.  They beat Florida State, Butler, and West Virgnia. 

This year he was moved to PG and early on a lot of his shots were off the bounce.  He was shooting in the teens halfway through the year, but the coach took that priviledge away from him and now his three pt % is over 30%.  In two years it is higher than ANY STJ player on our current roster. 

Stats don't tell the whole story.  Most players shoot in the teens or low twenties for shots they have to create from three.  When you can set your feet and step into it, good shooters can easily hit 40-50%.  It comes to selection and need.  If you watched any CSU games you would know that their best player, J'Nathan Bullock is horribly inconsistent.  He went scoreless in several halves and the pressure fell squarely on Ced's shoulders to produce in those situations.

How do you explain Ced averaging 36% from three the last two years?

Did you see Ced play a game at St. John's?  He was horrible.  Its not just about stats...but he didn't have a good handle...couldn't play point...and couldn't shoot.  Stats just happen to back that up.  I guess stats only matter if they back up your argument. 

The Big East game was too much for him early on.  Ced got a year off and was able to develop his game.  No doubt he improved from the time he was at St. John's...but don't compare Ced's senior year in the Horizon league to Boothe's/Horne's sophomore year in the Big East.  Compare Apples to Apples. 

They didn't beat West Virginia...they beat Syracuse(which you've mentioned 7 times and is probably 1 of 2 games you've seen them play this year)  and the powerhouse South Florida.  They did beat Fla St. last year but does anyone else play for Cleveland St. or does Ced win games all by himself?
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2009, 12:01:35 AM »
level of competition has a lot to do with it.  And high school averages mean nothing.

How is this for level of competition over the last two years for Ced:

Butler (SIX TIMES!)
Kansas State
Ohio State
Florida State
Syracuse
WV
Washington
South Florida
George Mason
Valpo 5x
Dayton


Their OOC Strength of Schedule on KenPom.com is 24.  STJ's is 289.

Their RPI is 54. St. John's is 143. Overall SOS is 74 for STJ and 113 for Cleveland State.  Not worlds apart.

Look at the RPI's they played this year alone for CSU:

11 (won)
23 (lost)
23 (lost)
23 (won)
14 (lost)
21 (lost)
72 (won)
72 (lost)
72 (won)
82 (lost)
95 (lost)
95 (won)

And you can add at least one more top 30 RPI to that in the tournament.

STJ was 0-9 against teams in the top 50 of the RPI.  CSU was 2-4 against top 25 with a game coming up next weekend.  Is it really THAT different?  STJ was 3-16 against the top 100 RPI.  CSU was 5-7.

Now your comparing the Horizon league schedule to the Big East?  Nice argument lets look at just out of conference games because thats all that counts or just one or two games against the Big East. in which nobody but Ced Jackson showed up to play for Cleveland St. considering HE beat them and not Cleveland St. 

The Horizon league outside of Butler is bad...very bad.  I find it hilarious that you don't think there is any difference of playing a Big East schedule versus Horizon league...absolutely hilarious. ;D  :D  You can convince yourself of anything.

Then you throw in the powerhouse Wright St. and Wisconsin Green Bay... ;D

BTW they played 4 OOC games against quality comp and went 1-3.  Superman wears Ced Jackson underwear right? :D

Syracuse W
Kansas St. L
Washington L
West Virginia L
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2009, 12:07:53 AM »
Jumpinjohnny owning this thread

Marillac

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2009, 12:10:54 AM »
Cedrick Jackson
               Points    Reb  Ass  TO    FG%  3PT%  FT%
Freshman     4.1     3.6   1.7  1.3    34%   23%   59%
Sophomore   4.4     3.3   1.7  1.6    36%   12%   47%

Yes that says 12% for 3 point% in his sophomore year.  It makes Boothe's 22% look lethal.  Almost twice as good a shooter. ;D

Don't get me wrong...he played hard for us and was a good defender but he did not belong in the Big East.

Do you even watch basketball games?  He beat Syracuse this year on the road.  He stifled Flynn when they were matched up.  It was VERY impressive.  If you are keeping track, they beat two very good Big East teams and lost only one cloes game all on the road the last two years.  We haven't beaten one good team in the Big East in two years.  We were 0 for the season against the top nine.

If you are so big on stats, how about the fact that Ced shot 39% from three last year as a two guard for Cleveland State.  They beat Florida State, Butler, and West Virgnia. 

This year he was moved to PG and early on a lot of his shots were off the bounce.  He was shooting in the teens halfway through the year, but the coach took that priviledge away from him and now his three pt % is over 30%.  In two years it is higher than ANY STJ player on our current roster. 

Stats don't tell the whole story.  Most players shoot in the teens or low twenties for shots they have to create from three.  When you can set your feet and step into it, good shooters can easily hit 40-50%.  It comes to selection and need.  If you watched any CSU games you would know that their best player, J'Nathan Bullock is horribly inconsistent.  He went scoreless in several halves and the pressure fell squarely on Ced's shoulders to produce in those situations.

How do you explain Ced averaging 36% from three the last two years?

Did you see Ced play a game at St. John's?  He was horrible.  Its not just about stats...but he didn't have a good handle...couldn't play point...and couldn't shoot.  Stats just happen to back that up.  I guess stats only matter if they back up your argument. 

The Big East game was too much for him early on.  Ced got a year off and was able to develop his game.  No doubt he improved from the time he was at St. John's...but don't compare Ced's senior year in the Horizon league to Boothe's/Horne's sophomore year in the Big East.  Compare Apples to Apples. 

They didn't beat West Virginia...they beat Syracuse(which you've mentioned 7 times and is probably 1 of 2 games you've seen them play this year)  and the powerhouse South Florida.  They did beat Fla St. last year but does anyone else play for Cleveland St. or does Ced win games all by himself?

I don't know what your deal is.  It is actually quite funny.  You think mid-major ball is so bad.  Are you serious?  What is the difference between playing 10 games a year against Cincy through Depaul or Wright State through Detriot? 

Cleveland State is a good basketball team and St. John's is not.  Cleveland State would have done well in the Big East this year.  In two games against Big East teams they won more games against the top nine than STJ did in a whole season of conference play.  WV DESTROYED us.  Syracuse beat us by 30 and laughed the whole time.  They didn't laugh against CSU.   

Obviously Ced is not the only player on the team, but he is the captain, he is 1st team all-conference, and he is the conference defensive player of the year. 

You're right, though, he would have never cut it at St. John's!  We are way to good.  We only lost by an average of 19.6 ppg to the top eight in the league!

Good for Cedric. The kid was pushed out of here for a class that never even materialized.  He could have just disappeared and faded away, but the kid had a chip on his shoulder and worked his a'ss off.  He probably thought about Norm Roberts every single day he was bustin his a'ss. 

He got himself a coach that knew how to make the most of his abilities.  A coach that was at Rutgers and coached against Cedric.  He knew how good of a player he was and that is why he brought him in. 

And to answer your question, obviously I saw him play at St. John's.  His offense was horrible, but I've never seen a kid that young play D like he did.  The only word I have for it is inspring.  He was in his man's grill the entire game, any rebound or loose ball near him was his and he was very good in transition. 

His handle was and is not good, but he is smart enough now that he is in an offensive system to average 5.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, and 3.1 steals per game.  He and his coach are aware of his weaknesses and limitations and play according to his strengths.  He is a very good passer.

This is a serious question:  have you ever played an organized sport in high school or beyond?

Marillac

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2009, 12:14:14 AM »
level of competition has a lot to do with it.  And high school averages mean nothing.

How is this for level of competition over the last two years for Ced:

Butler (SIX TIMES!)
Kansas State
Ohio State
Florida State
Syracuse
WV
Washington
South Florida
George Mason
Valpo 5x
Dayton


Their OOC Strength of Schedule on KenPom.com is 24.  STJ's is 289.

Their RPI is 54. St. John's is 143. Overall SOS is 74 for STJ and 113 for Cleveland State.  Not worlds apart.

Look at the RPI's they played this year alone for CSU:

11 (won)
23 (lost)
23 (lost)
23 (won)
14 (lost)
21 (lost)
72 (won)
72 (lost)
72 (won)
82 (lost)
95 (lost)
95 (won)

And you can add at least one more top 30 RPI to that in the tournament.

STJ was 0-9 against teams in the top 50 of the RPI.  CSU was 2-4 against top 25 with a game coming up next weekend.  Is it really THAT different?  STJ was 3-16 against the top 100 RPI.  CSU was 5-7.

Now your comparing the Horizon league schedule to the Big East?  Nice argument lets look at just out of conference games because thats all that counts or just one or two games against the Big East. in which nobody but Ced Jackson showed up to play for Cleveland St. considering HE beat them and not Cleveland St. 

The Horizon league outside of Butler is bad...very bad.  I find it hilarious that you don't think there is any difference of playing a Big East schedule versus Horizon league...absolutely hilarious. ;D  :D  You can convince yourself of anything.

Then you throw in the powerhouse Wright St. and Wisconsin Green Bay... ;D

BTW they played 4 OOC games against quality comp and went 1-3.  Superman wears Ced Jackson underwear right? :D

Syracuse W
Kansas St. L
Washington L
West Virginia L

Are you on crack?  What did St. John's do against the good teams of the Big East?  They were 0 the season!  Nobody talks the Big East up for G'twon, USF, ND or Depaul. 

It is all about Uconn, Pitt, Syracuse, WV, Nova, Louisville, etc.

Once again, JJ, St. John's was EMBARASSED by all of them.  19.6 was the average margin of defeate.  Not one single win.  NOT ONE SINGLE WIN.  Cleveland State had a win against that group.  What is the point you are trying to make?

Marillac

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2009, 12:20:09 AM »
I think that Ced's success is an indictment on Norm Roberts and his failures as coach. 

Roberts could do nothing with a kid that had a flawed game and definate weaknesses but was absolutely extraordinary in other areas.  Norm could not get the most of his strengths and limit his weaknesses. 

Same thing can be said for Larry Wright.  I guarantee that Larry Wright and Oakland make the tournament next year.

Yeah, the Horizon isn't the Big East, but it's not the NEC either. 

Keep the pom poms clean and don't hesitate to knock a kid that gave 100% for this school and did everything asked of him.  I'm glad he finally got a coach and nobody on this current roster can say they were all conference or played in a tournament game.  They can thank Norman Roberts.

Ced is a bulldog and a winner.  DJ and Paris should probably take note and find themselves a program with a better coach.

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2009, 12:27:15 AM »
I don't know what your deal is.  It is actually quite funny.  You think mid-major ball is so bad.  Are you serious?  What is the difference between playing 10 games a year against Cincy through Depaul or Wright State through Detriot? 

Cleveland State is a good basketball team and St. John's is not.  Cleveland State would have done well in the Big East this year.  In two games against Big East teams they won more games against the top nine than STJ did in a whole season of conference play.  WV DESTROYED us.  Syracuse beat us by 30 and laughed the whole time.  They didn't laugh against CSU.   

Obviously Ced is not the only player on the team, but he is the captain, he is 1st team all-conference, and he is the conference defensive player of the year. 

You're right, though, he would have never cut it at St. John's!  We are way to good.  We only lost by an average of 19.6 ppg to the top eight in the league!

Good for Cedric. The kid was pushed out of here for a class that never even materialized.  He could have just disappeared and faded away, but the kid had a chip on his shoulder and worked his a'ss off.  He probably thought about Norm Roberts every single day he was bustin his a'ss. 

He got himself a coach that knew how to make the most of his abilities.  A coach that was at Rutgers and coached against Cedric.  He knew how good of a player he was and that is why he brought him in. 

And to answer your question, obviously I saw him play at St. John's.  His offense was horrible, but I've never seen a kid that young play D like he did.  The only word I have for it is inspring.  He was in his man's grill the entire game, any rebound or loose ball near him was his and he was very good in transition. 

His handle was and is not good, but he is smart enough now that he is in an offensive system to average 5.7 rebounds, 5.4 assists, and 3.1 steals per game.  He and his coach are aware of his weaknesses and limitations and play according to his strengths.  He is a very good passer.

This is a serious question:  have you ever played an organized sport in high school or beyond?

So again you think there's not much of a difference between the Big East and the Horizon league? :o

Just let it go you're embarassing yourself.

The only thing we agree on is good for Cedric.  I don't think Norm was Ced's only problem.  He didn't adjust to the Big East and he found a more appropriate level to play at.  He busted his ass while he was at St. John's and represented the program well.  BUT he was horrible when he was here.  No way around it.

Organized sports?  You crack me up.  Did you score 8 points in a CYO game in 5th grade Mr. Internet Tough Guy.
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Marillac

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Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2009, 12:29:23 AM »
Also worth noting that STJ was 1 for the season on the road this year.  1-8 in the Big East (one win against 0-18 Depaul, who Cleveland State could have easily beaten).

CSU was 1-1 on the road in the Big East this year, 2-1 total in the last two years.  0-0 at home because no Big East team would play them at home. 

I'l ask you this one question, JJ:  Do you think St. John's is a better team that Cleveland State? 

And a follow up:  Do you think St. John's wins the Horizon Leauge. 

My answers?  St. John's is not a better team.  From what I've seen this year, I put St. John's behind Butler, CSU, Wright State, and UW Green Bay.  They are probably very close to UW Milaukee. 

I think they could have split home and home with UW Miluakee and Wright State.  They are not beating any of the top five on the road, because STJ doesn't win road games unless the other team is AWFUL.

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2009, 12:30:43 AM »
Are you on crack?  What did St. John's do against the good teams of the Big East?  They were 0 the season!  Nobody talks the Big East up for G'twon, USF, ND or Depaul. 

It is all about Uconn, Pitt, Syracuse, WV, Nova, Louisville, etc.

Once again, JJ, St. John's was EMBARASSED by all of them.  19.6 was the average margin of defeate.  Not one single win.  NOT ONE SINGLE WIN.  Cleveland State had a win against that group.  What is the point you are trying to make?

What does any of this have to do about St. John's?  We're talking about Ced Jackson...no?

My point is Cleveland St. plays lesser competition.  Gtown beat Memphis and Uconn...you put Gtown or ND in the Horizon league and they win the league.  Get a friggin clue!
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2009, 12:36:57 AM »
Cleveland St. would get destroyed in the Big East! Destroyed worse than Marillac is getting in this thread

Re: Derwin Kitchen
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2009, 12:38:39 AM »
I think that Ced's success is an indictment on Norm Roberts and his failures as coach. 

Roberts could do nothing with a kid that had a flawed game and definate weaknesses but was absolutely extraordinary in other areas.  Norm could not get the most of his strengths and limit his weaknesses. 

Same thing can be said for Larry Wright.  I guarantee that Larry Wright and Oakland make the tournament next year.

Yeah, the Horizon isn't the Big East, but it's not the NEC either. 

Keep the pom poms clean and don't hesitate to knock a kid that gave 100% for this school and did everything asked of him.  I'm glad he finally got a coach and nobody on this current roster can say they were all conference or played in a tournament game.  They can thank Norman Roberts.

Ced is a bulldog and a winner.  DJ and Paris should probably take note and find themselves a program with a better coach.

I'm not out to knock the kid...I've said he played hard when he was here.  BUT he was horrible.  Again no way around it.  You have no problem with knocking current St. John's players but anyone that transfers we can't talk about.

I agree about Larry he should do real well at Oakland.  Its too bad Norm couldn't get Larry to play the slightest bit of defense. I agree some of that is on Norm. 

But I don't blame Norm for Ced he was really bad when he was here.  Like I've said a hundred times...My point is the Horizon League was the right level for Ced.

And Paris and DJ both improved from their freshman years Ced didn't.
When you're a kid from New York and you do it in New York, that lasts forever!