Is this the year St. John's plays uptempo?

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 26, 2009, 01:35:44 PM

We should run but I agree with choz, don't see any reason to think we will.  Basketball isnt like football...you dont need a complete team overhaul to implement your strategy.  If we didnt run last year, why would we run this year?  We SHOULD, I just doubt it.

I think they run, Norm hasnt had the horses to get out and move the ball up the court. This year he finally does

Yeah, he did.
Its just not his style to run.
He just dont change.
He a coach who dont make no adjustments whether they be in game or to the personnel he got at his disposal.

Point of order:

Wasju, I love your opinions and this thread has gotten funny, but you are actually dead wrong about having to shoot 3's to run.  In D'Antoni's system you have to.  But Lorenzo Romar at Washington, the UNC Tar Heels, the Siena Saints, and Wake Forest played fast (defined as in had a lot of possessions and put up a lot of shots) and they DID NOT SHOOT THREES.  Like at all.  As a percentage of their total shots, they were below 300th in 3-pointers attempted. 

Look at this list - look at the bottom.  Also included: the fast U Conn Huskies and the Texas Longhorns: http://kenpom.com/tmleaders.php?c=F3GRate

Missouri was 214th.  Virginia Military Institute played at the fastest pace and attempted a lot of 3's, true.  But it's not a requirement.  The common thread is that those teams protect the ball better and either defend like maniacs (keeping the other team's field goal percentage down) or generate turnovers.

  Spoke with Norm once about pressing Full, 3/4, or 1/2 court. He does not believe in extending pressure although he said trapping along the sidelines is appreopiate at times. So, how much running am I expecting?

Point of order:

Wasju, I love your opinions and this thread has gotten funny, but you are actually dead wrong about having to shoot 3's to run.  In D'Antoni's system you have to.  But Lorenzo Romar at Washington, the UNC Tar Heels, the Siena Saints, and Wake Forest played fast (defined as in had a lot of possessions and put up a lot of shots) and they DID NOT SHOOT THREES.  Like at all.  As a percentage of their total shots, they were below 300th in 3-pointers attempted. 

Look at this list - look at the bottom.  Also included: the fast U Conn Huskies and the Texas Longhorns: http://kenpom.com/tmleaders.php?c=F3GRate

Missouri was 214th.  Virginia Military Institute played at the fastest pace and attempted a lot of 3's, true.  But it's not a requirement.  The common thread is that those teams protect the ball better and either defend like maniacs (keeping the other team's field goal percentage down) or generate turnovers.

How about this then to be a succesful running team three point shooting would help tremendously! All of Pitino's teams use it, the UNLV and ARKANSAS teams, LMU and D'Antoni's teams, though in fairness the Knicks are far from succesful. It just makes sense. If you are going to play fast and have more shots/possesions why wouldn't you utilize the three. Isn't Pitino's motto "Bang as many lushes on restaurant...er I mean:If you shoot 40% from three it is better than shooting 50% from two"?

Quote from: we are sju on October 26, 2009, 02:13:52 PM

Quote from: Choz4Life on October 26, 2009, 02:02:16 PM

Quote from: we are sju on October 26, 2009, 01:39:21 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 26, 2009, 01:23:51 PM

I think running in the past was always a challenge
Because we weren't athletic, or deep enough.

Also, if you're playing a team that runs better than you,
What's the point?

I agree he hasn't had the personal to run, but he still doesn't! He has had 5years to recruit to play a faster style and he has not. You do not need 5 star recruits to run, look at the Pitino Providence team! Either Norm chose to recruit players that fit his boring ball or he has no idea what he is doing recruiting wise.. Probably a bit of both.

We got the horses.
Paris, DJ, JB, Sean, Malik, Omari, the kid from Harrisburg. All them is straight up athletes.
This aint no team made up of Fred Lysons.

Do you have faith in Boothe running a break?
Will we rebound well enough in the BE?
Do we have enough three point shooting?
WILL NORM ACTUALLY HAVE THE TEAM RUN?

You are the only one who says that you need shooters to be a running team. You are more intelligent each day. Congratulations.

Rick Pitino, Mike D'Antoni, Paul Westhead, Jerry Tarkanian,Nolan Richardson and Meagan Fox all agree with me thanks.

Quote from: Dave on October 26, 2009, 02:28:37 PM

I agree with wasju that we need to rebound in order to orchestrate a fast break style of play. I do think we have that ability. Our rebounding numbers were + in our favor last year but we had a staggering amount of offensive rebounds which showed good hustle but also poor shooting. We do need to pick up some slack on the defensive end. We aren't THAT bad though at rebounding like wasju might be making us out to be.

Also to respond to tha kid, we didn't run last year because we were very short handed on ball handlers. We did run the ball a lot up until the BC game and then the injuries started coming in to play. A healthy Boothe and Stith will really aid our ball handling in terms of running the break and hopefully cut down on turnovers in general. Also having Hardy and Lawrence in addition to Horne, Kennedy, Roberts as secondary ball handlers will also be an improvement.

Also depth is just huge, we don't have to worry about minutes as much because of foul trouble. We played timid at times last year because of this. We can play much more aggressive when you have guys like Hardy, Lawrence, Brownlee coming off the bench instead of Edmondson, Wait, and Tomas.

No disrespct to Malik Stith, but I think you puttin too much into him.

I aint ever seen the brother play so what do I know? But thing is this: I aint ever seen a frosh point play exceptional 'less they come in wit a rep.

I'm not looking for him to be exceptional but serviceable. I think he can come in and spill minutes and handle the rock better than anyone did last season. He isn't Kemba Walker but he definitely isn't Tyshwan Edmondson either. I think we'd all be welcoming for something in between.

Quote from: peter on October 26, 2009, 03:34:22 PM

Point of order:

Wasju, I love your opinions and this thread has gotten funny, but you are actually dead wrong about having to shoot 3's to run.  In D'Antoni's system you have to.  But Lorenzo Romar at Washington, the UNC Tar Heels, the Siena Saints, and Wake Forest played fast (defined as in had a lot of possessions and put up a lot of shots) and they DID NOT SHOOT THREES.  Like at all.  As a percentage of their total shots, they were below 300th in 3-pointers attempted. 

Look at this list - look at the bottom.  Also included: the fast U Conn Huskies and the Texas Longhorns: http://kenpom.com/tmleaders.php?c=F3GRate

Missouri was 214th.  Virginia Military Institute played at the fastest pace and attempted a lot of 3's, true.  But it's not a requirement.  The common thread is that those teams protect the ball better and either defend like maniacs (keeping the other team's field goal percentage down) or generate turnovers.

How about this then to be a succesful running team three point shooting would help tremendously! All of Pitino's teams use it, the UNLV and ARKANSAS teams, LMU and D'Antoni's teams, though in fairness the Knicks are far from succesful. It just makes sense. If you are going to play fast and have more shots/possesions why wouldn't you utilize the three. Isn't Pitino's motto "Bang as many lushes on restaurant...er I mean:If you shoot 40% from three it is better than shooting 50% from two"?

I'm just talking possibilities.  And if the whole five can run & be shifty in the open court, they can draw fouls.  I am a big believer in that stathead view of basketball - because hitting 40% from 2 is FAR better than shooting the same or slightly better from 2.  Unless you draw fouls and/ or play great defense. 

Really, the problem with not having shooters is that running badly - with poor spacing, poor finishers, and an ineffective secondary break/ plan B - leaves you with no other option. 

And one of the reasons Pitino, in particular, as an advocate of the three-pointer is that with a less-talented team or smaller squad, those long twos are going to be more contested.  So why not step back a foot and make it count?

(As an aside, it's one of the most frustrating things about watching Mase play, when he did play 2 years ago. He can get his shot off but in looking for his shot, inexplicably finds himself within the line... and then he takes the high-difficulty, lower-reward attempt. If he only shot from 21ft and from 10ft or less, he'd be a more efficient player; that's true for most.)

We've had a lot of great sleepers in this league.

But exceptional is tough. I'd be thrilled with a good solid playmaker. He might surprise us who knows?

It is a bit concerning that the only one I hear saying he's great is his high school coach.

Quote from: we are sju on October 26, 2009, 03:41:44 PM

Quote from: peter on October 26, 2009, 03:34:22 PM

Point of order:

Wasju, I love your opinions and this thread has gotten funny, but you are actually dead wrong about having to shoot 3's to run.  In D'Antoni's system you have to.  But Lorenzo Romar at Washington, the UNC Tar Heels, the Siena Saints, and Wake Forest played fast (defined as in had a lot of possessions and put up a lot of shots) and they DID NOT SHOOT THREES.  Like at all.  As a percentage of their total shots, they were below 300th in 3-pointers attempted. 

Look at this list - look at the bottom.  Also included: the fast U Conn Huskies and the Texas Longhorns: http://kenpom.com/tmleaders.php?c=F3GRate

Missouri was 214th.  Virginia Military Institute played at the fastest pace and attempted a lot of 3's, true.  But it's not a requirement.  The common thread is that those teams protect the ball better and either defend like maniacs (keeping the other team's field goal percentage down) or generate turnovers.

How about this then to be a succesful running team three point shooting would help tremendously! All of Pitino's teams use it, the UNLV and ARKANSAS teams, LMU and D'Antoni's teams, though in fairness the Knicks are far from succesful. It just makes sense. If you are going to play fast and have more shots/possesions why wouldn't you utilize the three. Isn't Pitino's motto "Bang as many lushes on restaurant...er I mean:If you shoot 40% from three it is better than shooting 50% from two"?

I'm just talking possibilities.  And if the whole five can run & be shifty in the open court, they can draw fouls.  I am a big believer in that stathead view of basketball - because hitting 40% from 2 is FAR better than shooting the same or slightly better from 2.  Unless you draw fouls and/ or play great defense. 

Really, the problem with not having shooters is that running badly - with poor spacing, poor finishers, and an ineffective secondary break/ plan B - leaves you with no other option. 

And one of the reasons Pitino, in particular, as an advocate of the three-pointer is that with a less-talented team or smaller squad, those long twos are going to be more contested.  So why not step back a foot and make it count?

(As an aside, it's one of the most frustrating things about watching Mase play, when he did play 2 years ago. He can get his shot off but in looking for his shot, inexplicably finds himself within the line... and then he takes the high-difficulty, lower-reward attempt. If he only shot from 21ft and from 10ft or less, he'd be a more efficient player; that's true for most.)

Has there ever been a coach who radically changed their style of play after 5years? I know Paul Westhead was fired from the Lakers becuase Magic wanted to run more, then he went to LMU and they were running fools. But Westhead was also a Pro coach who had had success. Has a very unsuccesful coach ever changed styles drastically? Then again very unsucessful coaches generally are fired pretty quickly.

You need healthy bodies to run.
Our guys, for the most part, are out of gas by the end of the game.

My only argument on this topic might be that when you run more the three point looks you get are better than in half court sets, and in addition to that the best time to shoot a three is when you can step into your shot so that may improve the percentages of guys like paris and dj.

I agree about the rebounding.  Justin Burrell HAS to grab 8-9 rebound a game against Big East opponents.  He has NO reason why he couldn't do this. 

Has there ever been a coach who radically changed their style of play after 5years?

Leopards don't really change their spots - on offense, especially.  On defense, a number of good coaches will alter what they're doing to maximize their team's effort.  But I think college coaches generally do what they do, and teach what they teach - I'm not disagreeing with you here.

Quote from: we are sju on October 26, 2009, 04:40:45 PM

Has there ever been a coach who radically changed their style of play after 5years?

Leopards don't really change their spots - on offense, especially.  On defense, a number of good coaches will alter what they're doing to maximize their team's effort.  But I think college coaches generally do what they do, and teach what they teach - I'm not disagreeing with you here.

So according to this thought process, which I agree with, we will be walking the ball up again this year.

Defensive stops create running opportunities. The biggest change with this year’s team will be defensive ball pressure. The 2 Malik’s need to create havoc for other teams PG’s. Boothe was way too passive last year as he did not want to pick up fouls. Last year we one PG with only 5 fouls, this year we have 2 Pgs with 10 fouls. Ball pressure will be the key to other teams not being able to get in to their offensive sets. Are PG’s are small and fast and we need to use that to our advantage.

Rebound and run. Defense will create Offence.

Lets just say NOrm wants to run, now if thats the case do we need either of the Maliks on the floor to run?

Lets just say NOrm wants to run, now if thats the case do we need either of the Maliks on the floor to run?

yes we need the Malik's on the floor to create ball pressure.

I'm hoping we play a little more up tempo but I don't see Norm changing much.  But I also don't think we have the squad to play 40 mins of hell either.  But we have some defenders that could definitely put pressure on other teams for periods of time so I'm hoping for a slight change in gears.

Lets just say NOrm wants to run, now if thats the case do we need either of the Maliks on the floor to run?

Who else can handle the ball?  Can Hardy or Omari...last year proved we don't really have a reliable ball handler besides Boothe(who is only somewhat reliable).

Quote from: Marco Baldi on October 27, 2009, 01:13:23 PM

Lets just say NOrm wants to run, now if thats the case do we need either of the Maliks on the floor to run?

Who else can handle the ball?  Can Hardy or Omari...last year proved we don't really have a reliable ball handler besides Boothe(who is only somewhat reliable).

Kennedy