Seth Davis' thoughts on St. John's [SI]

You CAN say Siena is overrated bc they lost their best player from last season.  I's possible his affect on the team was underrated.

We will wait and see, but you cant judge either st johns or siena based on their performances against each other this early.  They are at least a decent team and it's good we won.

They did not lose their best player from last season. Ubiles is still on the team, Kenny Hasbrouck had a bad senior year and an even worse 10 game stretch at the end of the year. They return 4 out of the starting 5 that took Louisville to the wire and they also brought back the MAAC 6th man of the year Clarence Jackson who torched some big teams last year. Paris shut him done. How about we start giving St JOhns some credit for beating a team and a coach that most posters have been have been sweating prior to losing to St Johns

Quote from: Tha Kid on December 01, 2009, 02:03:19 PM

You CAN say Siena is overrated bc they lost their best player from last season.  I's possible his affect on the team was underrated.

We will wait and see, but you cant judge either st johns or siena based on their performances against each other this early.  They are at least a decent team and it's good we won.

They did not lose their best player from last season. Ubiles is still on the team, Kenny Hasbrouck had a bad senior year and an even worse 10 game stretch at the end of the year. They return 4 out of the starting 5 that took Louisville to the wire and they also brought back the MAAC 6th man of the year Clarence Jackson who torched some big teams last year. Paris shut him done. How about we start giving St JOhns some credit for beating a team and a coach that most posters have been have been sweating prior to losing to St Johns

Baldi just said to Tha Kid....

Quote from: pmg911 on December 01, 2009, 01:20:59 PM

Quote from: Dave on December 01, 2009, 12:12:51 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on December 01, 2009, 10:35:14 AM

talk to me in mid-January about NCAA Tournament.

Do you believe that the NCAA tournament is an unrealistic expectation? Does St. John's have any chance?

Unfortunately, I don't think they have a shot.

The wins this weekend were fantastic but I think by year end the win over Siena might not amount to much to the selection committee. I think it is obvious they were a little overrated, just as I might have underrated St. John's a little.

The conference is not nearly as weak as people think and I have zero faith in Norm getting the most out of these kids in the conference play. We will not be successul in the league with weak point guard play and a 6'7 - 6'8 center.

I also believe the return of Mason could potentially blow up the chemistry the teams has shown early.

So Siena makes runs in the past two years of the tourney, return a majority of their minutes, and now they're overrated? I just think thats unfair to say.

If you want to stick to your opinion St. John's isn't a tourney team that's fine but to start saying Siena isn't that good after we beat them is unjust. If they beat us I'm sure there would be high praise of Fran McCaffrey for doing such a wonderful job at Siena and how good of a program they are.

I also think Siena has been overrated.  They just aren't the same team after losing by far and away their best player.  Hasbrouk would be in the NBA if he was two inches taller.  Everyone else they have is a secondary player really--good ones, though.  They have no outside shooting this year. 

I hope I am wrong about that.  Temple wasn't the greatest team either, but a win against a solid team on the road is not something we've ever done under Norm. 

Quote from: Tha Kid on December 01, 2009, 02:03:19 PM

You CAN say Siena is overrated bc they lost their best player from last season.  I's possible his affect on the team was underrated.

We will wait and see, but you cant judge either st johns or siena based on their performances against each other this early.  They are at least a decent team and it's good we won.

They did not lose their best player from last season. Ubiles is still on the team, Kenny Hasbrouck had a bad senior year and an even worse 10 game stretch at the end of the year. They return 4 out of the starting 5 that took Louisville to the wire and they also brought back the MAAC 6th man of the year Clarence Jackson who torched some big teams last year. Paris shut him done. How about we start giving St JOhns some credit for beating a team and a coach that most posters have been have been sweating prior to losing to St Johns

Have to disagree with you, Baldi.  Ubiles is nowhere near as good as Hasbrouck.  It's not even close.  Hasbrouck was a very complete player that could shutdown an opposing player and even though his %'s dropped, could hit outside shots or drive equally well.

Quote from: pmg911 on December 01, 2009, 01:20:59 PM

Quote from: Dave on December 01, 2009, 12:12:51 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on December 01, 2009, 10:35:14 AM

talk to me in mid-January about NCAA Tournament.

Do you believe that the NCAA tournament is an unrealistic expectation? Does St. John's have any chance?

Unfortunately, I don't think they have a shot.

The wins this weekend were fantastic but I think by year end the win over Siena might not amount to much to the selection committee. I think it is obvious they were a little overrated, just as I might have underrated St. John's a little.

The conference is not nearly as weak as people think and I have zero faith in Norm getting the most out of these kids in the conference play. We will not be successul in the league with weak point guard play and a 6'7 - 6'8 center.

I also believe the return of Mason could potentially blow up the chemistry the teams has shown early.

So Siena makes runs in the past two years of the tourney, return a majority of their minutes, and now they're overrated? I just think thats unfair to say.

If you want to stick to your opinion St. John's isn't a tourney team that's fine but to start saying Siena isn't that good after we beat them is unjust. If they beat us I'm sure there would be high praise of Fran McCaffrey for doing such a wonderful job at Siena and how good of a program they are.

I never said they weren't good, I just said by year end that win might not be as good a win as it is right now. That team was obviously over rated, they were pre-season Top 30 and are not that good of a team. Before the season started, people would have thought beating Temple was not such a good win and that might prove to be the more impressive victory come the end of the year. Nice job of trying to twist what i was saying though.

If Siena beat us people would have yawned and said they were suppoosed to beat us.

I never said they weren't good, I just said by year end that win might not be as good a win as it is right now. That team was obviously over rated, they were pre-season Top 30 and are not that good of a team. Before the season started, people would have thought beating Temple was not such a good win and that might prove to be the more impressive victory come the end of the year. Nice job of trying to twist what i was saying though.

If Siena beat us people would have yawned and said they were suppoosed to beat us.

Certainly have to agree that it was a pipe dream for these publications to put them in the top 20-30 teams in the country coming into the season and I for one didn't believe the hype, I mean it's a MAAC team.  That said they'll end up top 50 and likely dance.  It'll look like a quality win in March, not a superb win but a quality win.  Same with Temple.  But it means nothing if they don't get some quality wins from December 31 - March 5.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 01, 2009, 02:09:35 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on December 01, 2009, 02:03:19 PM

You CAN say Siena is overrated bc they lost their best player from last season.  I's possible his affect on the team was underrated.

We will wait and see, but you cant judge either st johns or siena based on their performances against each other this early.  They are at least a decent team and it's good we won.

They did not lose their best player from last season. Ubiles is still on the team, Kenny Hasbrouck had a bad senior year and an even worse 10 game stretch at the end of the year. They return 4 out of the starting 5 that took Louisville to the wire and they also brought back the MAAC 6th man of the year Clarence Jackson who torched some big teams last year. Paris shut him done. How about we start giving St JOhns some credit for beating a team and a coach that most posters have been have been sweating prior to losing to St Johns

Have to disagree with you, Baldi.  Ubiles is nowhere near as good as Hasbrouck.  It's not even close.  Hasbrouck was a very complete player that could shutdown an opposing player and even though his %'s dropped, could hit outside shots or drive equally well.

Here are 10 of Hasbrouck's games last year from the field - nearly 1/3 of his season

1-10
3-10
5-14
1-8
0-6
3-11
1-7
2-20
4-16
4-17

Somebody had to play well during this stretch, guess who that person was. The 5 guys that are still there
 
 

I'm no Saint expert...but last year they had a player better than Rossiter?

Wow.

No one is making Siena out to be Duke quality but bottom line they are still a quality OOC win especially given the fact that it was in a neutral location. They will still make the tourney with a automatic conference bid and will have a good shot at winning their first round matchup.

I'm no Saint expert...but last year they had a player better than Rossiter?

Wow.

Carmine, Edwin Ubiles is a great player who pops up on NBAdraft sites. What you saw on Friday was great defense by DJ and St Johns to shut him down

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 01, 2009, 03:12:08 PM

I'm no Saint expert...but last year they had a player better than Rossiter?

Wow.

Carmine, Edwin Ubiles is a great player who pops up on NBAdraft sites. What you saw on Friday was great defense by DJ and St Johns to shut him down

Seen.  You mean Rossiter doesn't play like that every night?  He had a monster game and without him the green team get's blown off the court that night.

Hasbrouck was an excellent player, even if his shooting didn't reflect that at the end of the year; Siena's game is predicated on their press and defense.  They are chaos first, scoring second - and shared.  Hasbrouck went a damned 4-16 against Ohio State and they WON.  Kenny's scoring is not his whole game whatsoever.  And Rossiter makes plays all over - he's still an excellent player.

I think Siena isn't as good as they were at the end of last year.  BUT they had a three game stretch - in Puerto Rico or some other exempt tournament - where they lost 3 games in a row.  Just maybe, maybe, Fran McCaffery's coaching acumen extends to getting a team to understand what it does well over the course of a season - like Rick Pitino does with his teams.  Louisville craps the bed at least once in the non-conference while Rick works out how his team is going to play.

So yeah, Siena deserved top 25 consideration, but they're not there yet.  Yes, St. John's deserves some props, but we don't know how good those teams are.  Right now, Temple is just awful at scoring and Siena has some kinks to work out.  If you took this St. John's team and played last year's schedule, I think Boston College might still carve the Johnnies up.  Miami might still muscle them around.  Virginia Tech would still clown them.

We ain't there yet.  But it's looking more promising.

Alot of Siena fans will tell you that they think this years team is better than last. I dont necessarily agree with them

Seth just tweeted this

 SethDavisHoops Interesting how excited St. John's fans are by two Ws over respectable but unranked teams. They are really starved for a winner.

When you're used to losing to the likes of Illinois State, Tulane, Hofstra, Ohio, and Niagara early in the season, 5-0 with two pretty quality wins sounds like paradise.

Also, the point about Mason not having to carry the offense is a good one. He has been overly aggressive in the past with the shot selection and ball handling. If he can slide in and fill a nice role, I think he'll be an excellent addition.

our conference games against cuse and nova at the top of the big east will decide in january if these games were a solid oc win for stjohns or a bad loss for siena/temple....but for now it feels really good.

our conference games against cuse and nova at the top of the big east will decide in january if these games were a solid oc win for stjohns or a bad loss for siena/temple....but for now it feels really good.

Siena beating Georgia Tech tomorrow night would be a good thing too

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 01, 2009, 03:12:08 PM

I'm no Saint expert...but last year they had a player better than Rossiter?

Wow.

Carmine, Edwin Ubiles is a great player who pops up on NBAdraft sites. What you saw on Friday was great defense by DJ and St Johns to shut him down

 Can't go by NBA draft sites.  Hell, NBA draft.net has Chris Wright from Georgetown going in the 1st round!  They clearly no longer have any credibility.

   For the record, i've come around, georgetown does suck and we should beat them.  Are you willing to give us a "W" in that one yet?

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 01, 2009, 03:14:54 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 01, 2009, 03:12:08 PM

I'm no Saint expert...but last year they had a player better than Rossiter?

Wow.

Carmine, Edwin Ubiles is a great player who pops up on NBAdraft sites. What you saw on Friday was great defense by DJ and St Johns to shut him down

 Can't go by NBA draft sites.  Hell, NBA draft.net has Chris Wright from Georgetown going in the 1st round!  They clearly no longer have any credibility.

   For the record, i've come around, georgetown does suck and we should beat them.  Are you willing to give us a "W" in that one yet?

Im the mush, Baldi is usually wrong so I'll leave the L for us. If I change it to a W, ST Johns loses by 30 

 good idea.

we'll see if we got a real shot at ncaa's saturday...we dont need to win, just need to be able to compete with duke for 40 min without major lapses...then ill be excited for this season