What if?

Bill Simmons on ESPN.com always does these things and even if it is all speculation, they are pretty interesting. As far as ST John's goes, everyone always plays the what if Fran hadn't been fired scenerio. To me that one is too hard to do becuase one way or another Fran was leaving sooner rather than latter. To me the biggest SJU WHAT IF is:

What if Jarvis had taken the Wizards job after the Elite 8 season? Coming off an Elite 8 with a solid team coming back it is interesting to wonder who would have been on SJU's coaching list. I am certain there would be no obscure asst with only D 3 losing experience on it. Who knows if the right coach was hired maybe Ron Ron even stays another year and we at least make the final 4? At the very least the Pitt scandel, Abe Keita and Norm Roberts never happen.

I believe Jay Wright was all set to get the job.

I believe Jay Wright was all set to get the job.

I did not remember the Jarvis to the Wiz being to the point where SJU was already looking at replacements?
But playing along I think Wright would have inherited a strong enough team even if Artest left to start a nice foundation for the future. I think Jay would have eventually bolted us, but I think the progam would have been viewed as a nice get for whoever his replacement turned out to be.
Or Jay becomes a huge Met fan loves Queens and we become Nova.

If Jarvis had only left us for Washington.

If Jarvis had only left us for Washington.

I believe that was the key moment when it all went south

I'm sure Jarvis also wishes he had left us for Washington.  As lazy as he got, he was not a bad coach, got burnt out fighting with the admins, and even gets blamed by many of us for the sacandal even though it didn't happen and wouldn't have happened on his watch.

I'm sure Jarvis also wishes he had left us for Nova.  As lazy as he got, he was not a bad coach, got burnt out fighting with the admins, and even gets blamed by many of us for the sacandal even though it didn't happen and wouldn't have happened on his watch.

Revisionist history. Jarvis was an awful coach. Awful. He basically spent 5 years crouching on the sidelines rubbing the bridge of his nose. He was a horrible recruiter, an atrocious game coach, and on top of that an appalling human being. Blaming his failures on the administration is ridiculous. All that jibber jabber (!) about facilities was an excuse for his own failings. He was also in charge during a number of "scandals" (Grady Reynolds assault, Elijah's SUV, Hatten/Shaw) including the one that got us put on probation (Keita). Norm might be incompetent but he's not incompetent enough to make Jarhead anything but revolting.

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 22, 2010, 02:31:51 PM

I'm sure Jarvis also wishes he had left us for Nova.  As lazy as he got, he was not a bad coach, got burnt out fighting with the admins, and even gets blamed by many of us for the sacandal even though it didn't happen and wouldn't have happened on his watch.

Revisionist history. Jarvis was an awful coach. Awful. He basically spent 5 years crouching on the sidelines rubbing the bridge of his nose. He was a horrible recruiter, an atrocious game coach, and on top of that an appalling human being. Blaming his failures on the administration is ridiculous. All that jibber jabber (!) about facilities was an excuse for his own failings. He was also in charge during a number of "scandals" (Grady Reynolds assault, Elijah's SUV, Hatten/Shaw) including the one that got us put on probation (Keita). Norm might be incompetent but he's not incompetent enough to make Jarhead anything but revolting.

I am no fan of Jarvis, but the elite 8 team was extremely fun to watch. Jarvis gets credit for that, Fran's players or not.

Quote from: Foad on January 22, 2010, 03:04:50 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 22, 2010, 02:31:51 PM

I'm sure Jarvis also wishes he had left us for Nova.  As lazy as he got, he was not a bad coach, got burnt out fighting with the admins, and even gets blamed by many of us for the sacandal even though it didn't happen and wouldn't have happened on his watch.

Revisionist history. Jarvis was an awful coach. Awful. He basically spent 5 years crouching on the sidelines rubbing the bridge of his nose. He was a horrible recruiter, an atrocious game coach, and on top of that an appalling human being. Blaming his failures on the administration is ridiculous. All that jibber jabber (!) about facilities was an excuse for his own failings. He was also in charge during a number of "scandals" (Grady Reynolds assault, Elijah's SUV, Hatten/Shaw) including the one that got us put on probation (Keita). Norm might be incompetent but he's not incompetent enough to make Jarhead anything but revolting.

I am no fan of Jarvis, but the elite 8 team was extremely fun to watch. Jarvis gets credit for that, Fran's players or not.

Fine. The elite 8 team was fun to watch, and Jarvis can have credit for not completely ruining it, as he went on to completely ruin SJ basketball.

Quote from: we are sju on January 22, 2010, 03:16:20 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 22, 2010, 03:04:50 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 22, 2010, 02:31:51 PM

I'm sure Jarvis also wishes he had left us for Nova.  As lazy as he got, he was not a bad coach, got burnt out fighting with the admins, and even gets blamed by many of us for the sacandal even though it didn't happen and wouldn't have happened on his watch.

Revisionist history. Jarvis was an awful coach. Awful. He basically spent 5 years crouching on the sidelines rubbing the bridge of his nose. He was a horrible recruiter, an atrocious game coach, and on top of that an appalling human being. Blaming his failures on the administration is ridiculous. All that jibber jabber (!) about facilities was an excuse for his own failings. He was also in charge during a number of "scandals" (Grady Reynolds assault, Elijah's SUV, Hatten/Shaw) including the one that got us put on probation (Keita). Norm might be incompetent but he's not incompetent enough to make Jarhead anything but revolting.

I am no fan of Jarvis, but the elite 8 team was extremely fun to watch. Jarvis gets credit for that, Fran's players or not.

Fine. The elite 8 team was fun to watch, and Jarvis can have credit for not completely ruining it, as he went on to completely ruin SJ basketball.

I guess my point is that though Jarvis was not a particularly good game coach IMO, he was the perfect coach for that group of players. Would that team have done as well with Fran? Louie? Just a weird circumstance.

Quote from: Foad on January 22, 2010, 03:04:50 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 22, 2010, 02:31:51 PM

I'm sure Jarvis also wishes he had left us for Nova.  As lazy as he got, he was not a bad coach, got burnt out fighting with the admins, and even gets blamed by many of us for the sacandal even though it didn't happen and wouldn't have happened on his watch.

Revisionist history. Jarvis was an awful coach. Awful. He basically spent 5 years crouching on the sidelines rubbing the bridge of his nose. He was a horrible recruiter, an atrocious game coach, and on top of that an appalling human being. Blaming his failures on the administration is ridiculous. All that jibber jabber (!) about facilities was an excuse for his own failings. He was also in charge during a number of "scandals" (Grady Reynolds assault, Elijah's SUV, Hatten/Shaw) including the one that got us put on probation (Keita). Norm might be incompetent but he's not incompetent enough to make Jarhead anything but revolting.

I am no fan of Jarvis, but the elite 8 team was extremely fun to watch. Jarvis gets credit for that, Fran's players or not.

I don't think Jarvis coached the team that much. Mostly, all he did was manage the game with playing time. He let his players play.

Therefore... IMO...  Fran, Ron Artest, Erick Barkley, Postell, Bootsy, etc. get 95% credit. Jarvis gets 5% for getting his players to the game on time, substitutions, occasional play calling, etc.

Quote from: we are sju on January 22, 2010, 03:16:20 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 22, 2010, 03:04:50 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 22, 2010, 02:31:51 PM

I'm sure Jarvis also wishes he had left us for Nova.  As lazy as he got, he was not a bad coach, got burnt out fighting with the admins, and even gets blamed by many of us for the sacandal even though it didn't happen and wouldn't have happened on his watch.

Revisionist history. Jarvis was an awful coach. Awful. He basically spent 5 years crouching on the sidelines rubbing the bridge of his nose. He was a horrible recruiter, an atrocious game coach, and on top of that an appalling human being. Blaming his failures on the administration is ridiculous. All that jibber jabber (!) about facilities was an excuse for his own failings. He was also in charge during a number of "scandals" (Grady Reynolds assault, Elijah's SUV, Hatten/Shaw) including the one that got us put on probation (Keita). Norm might be incompetent but he's not incompetent enough to make Jarhead anything but revolting.

I am no fan of Jarvis, but the elite 8 team was extremely fun to watch. Jarvis gets credit for that, Fran's players or not.

I don't think Jarvis coached the team that much. Mostly, all he did was manage the game with playing time. He let his players play.

Therefore... IMO...  Fran, Ron Artest, Erick Barkley, Postell, Bootsy, etc. get 95% credit. Jarvis gets 5% for getting his players to the game on time, substitutions, occasional play calling, etc.

Just to play Devil's advocate none of the guys on that team besides Ronn Ron went on to have any kind of pro career.
I'll ask you the same question. Does Fran or Louie take this team to the Elite 8? I can't give it a def YES.

I guess my point is that though Jarvis was not a particularly good game coach IMO, he was the perfect coach for that group of players. Would that team have done as well with Fran? Louie?

I think Fran surely would have. Louie is another matter. He lost a lot of NCAA games with some good teams. Mullin, B Goodwin, D Russell, Kevin Williams, Jeff Allen, second round loss at Nassau Coliseum. Artest et al were just the sort of athletic players he got the least out of. Open question.

If Fran stayed he possible would have recruited another high level player and we might won a championship.

We were a Serviceable Center away

Quote from: we are sju on January 22, 2010, 03:31:18 PM

I guess my point is that though Jarvis was not a particularly good game coach IMO, he was the perfect coach for that group of players. Would that team have done as well with Fran? Louie?

I think Fran surely would have. Louie is another matter. He lost a lot of NCAA games with some good teams. Mullin, B Goodwin, D Russell, Kevin Williams, Jeff Allen, second round loss at Nassau Coliseum. Artest et al were just the sort of athletic players he got the least out of. Open question.

Again just playing DA, Fran lost in 1st round with Lopez, Hamilton, Postell, Artest, Grant.
Believe it or not my favorite Louie team was the Berry team. Louie loosened the reigns and that team was fun to watch. Of course they were upset in 2nd round. I do believe combo of Berry still recovering from ankle sprain and Auburn's frontline size being a bad matchup being basically bad luck for us and nothing Louie did or did not do.

If Fran stayed he possible would have recruited another high level player and we might won a championship.

We were a Serviceable Center away

I was a Fran fan, but there were several issues that would argue against your opinion.
1. Fran was upset in the 1st round with maybe the most talented SJU team since the Berry/Mullin/Jackson days.
2. Fran clearly viewed SJU as a stepping stone job and all indications are that he would look to leave at the first good opportunity.
3. From what I have heard from several good sources including a former player there was a very real possibility of a Doherty/UNC type player revolt in the makings. I was told the players hated Fran.
4. Fran's flameout since he left SJU.

this is a depressing game to play

     I also have it on VERY good authority that Jarvis and his team, landed an even bigger deathblow to this program. As the story was told to me, a very high level employee of MSG was waiting for an elevator at the garden post game. When the door opens, its Jarvis and some members of the team. When the big wig from the garden gets in, he is heckled by racial epithets by Jarvis and his team. It gets to the point that the bigwig lets his superiors know what happened. Jarvis is confronted and basically tells the higher ups at MSG to take a flying leap. As a direct result, all of the benefits the garden had bestowed on the team, including reduced rental fees, and many other assorted goodies were yanked. It was a HUGE deal at MSG, and the garden has not forgotten it. Jarvis destroyed this program pure and simple. There is no other way around it.   

 We have to get away from the past and move on. At this point, who cares who's to blame for the mess. i want to know who's gonna come in and clean it up!