Doron Lamb - SG - Bishop Loughlin - Brooklyn, NY - KENTUCKY

  With so many reasons i'm amazed no top recruits come.  Not trying to bash anything or stir up controvery,  but PMG  brought up a valid point.  I hope one day (and soon), they want to come here again.  I don't think it will be to play for NR though.   Because when you get right down to it,  the studs go to schools for the coach.  End of story. 

  Oh Yeah,   you asked the question.  "Why wouldn't a top recruit come to St.John's"    didn't you

Quote from: boo3 on June 17, 2009, 05:39:27 PM

Quote from: Dave on June 17, 2009, 05:13:35 PM

Quote from: boo3 on June 17, 2009, 04:38:37 PM

Quote from: Dave on June 17, 2009, 03:27:52 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on June 17, 2009, 12:57:12 PM

if you are a high level recruit at this point. . why would you come to St. John's..?

why wouldn't you want to come to St. John's?

  just playing devils advocate here:

  1. Horrific brand of basketball to both play and watch
   2.  Been almost 10years since program has produced a pro. 
  3.  sparse crowds.
  4.  Jaimaca ain't exactly Chapel Hill

1. I enjoyed watching our team at times last season.
2. 10 years past has nothing to do with next
3. win and the place will be packed
4. Chapel Hill ain't exactly Madison Square Garden

  of course there were moments that were enjoyable last season.  there were also moments where we didn't score for 10 min at a time,  like once a game.

  If you don't think being able to get kids to the next level affects their college choice then your missing something. 

  when a recruit comes to a game at MSG and there are 5k people there,  what do you think goes through their mind?

  I guess you've never been to Chapel Hill.  Step on campus,  you'll understand.

  PMG  original question was why would a top recruit come to SJU.  No one gave a reason.  i don't want to hear the ressurect the program/messaih routine.  The top NYC player with the biggest messiah complex in the world told us to take a hike.

Peter gave answers before but we can go over more again. Playing time, Big East conference, New York, media, exposure, resources, nice on campus living facilities, tradition, madison square garden, current players on roster all upperclassman. This is off the top of my head but we can think of more things.

I don't see the reason to stir up discussion on why recruits shouldn't pick St. John's.

Playing time:  Not unique to STJ, and every top player believes, rightly or wrongly that they'll get their playing time anywhere and almost every coach allows their recruits to believe that.

Big East conference:  That's great but pretty much every big recruit STJ gets mentioned with has 3-4 other BE teams on their radar

New York:  This is true, would be more true if the school weren't in Jamaica and so far from what 99% of the world considers New York City

Media / Exp:  National media in sports now doesn't revolve around the Big Apple.  Countless teams get more coverage than STJ and one top recruit wouldn't change that.

Resources: Amongst the lowest of all BCS schools

Nice on campus living facilities:  Equal to most big time schools at best

Tradition:  Well if you do a Clockwork Orange tie down eyes open thing and make today's kids read the coffee table book or watch the video then they might believe you, but probably not

Madison square garden:  Relatively inarguable so I won't waste my time

Current players on roster all upperclassman:  Not unique to STJ and not a regular occurence.

Effectively all your points are valid if STJ is going against Manhattan, LaSalle or Stony Brook for a player but that's not where STJ should be fishing. 

However a good coach and recruiter should be able to take your line semi-falsehoods and hyperbole and sell it to a kid.  Norm has been unable to do so.  Need someone who can if this year's team doesn't win - which also cures a lot of ills.

I've been to a ton of schools and St. John's dorms are all bigger, newer, and nicer in almost every aspect. This is one thing I must compliment St. John's on.

Media coverage: we have 2 sports radio stations, multiple newspapers, multiple online places to discuss hoops, MSG, SNY, YES, etc. Maybe some people don't realize all over the country coverage isn't like that and take it for granted.

Resources are plentiful mostly due to the fact of being in New York. Perhaps again some people take that for granted.

Current players being upperclassmen in the Big East this holds true for us for the 2010/2011 class which is what we're gearing discussion to.

I'm not trying to make St. John's out to be the best thing out there or overhype it but I don't get the point of trying to make St. John's sound like a less attractive choice for a top recruit. Recruits do read the site.

  of course there were moments that were enjoyable last season.  there were also moments where we didn't score for 10 min at a time,  like once a game.

  If you don't think being able to get kids to the next level affects their college choice then your missing something. 

  when a recruit comes to a game at MSG and there are 5k people there,  what do you think goes through their mind?

  I guess you've never been to Chapel Hill.  Step on campus,  you'll understand.

  PMG  original question was why would a top recruit come to SJU.  No one gave a reason.  i don't want to hear the ressurect the program/messaih routine.  The top NYC player with the biggest messiah complex in the world told us to take a hike.

I'm not aiming this at making St. John's look better or worse.  All of those factors (especially the losses, more than the lack of scoring) - and the lack of on-campus atmosphere (and boosters) play into why recruits don't want to come here.  But the reasons I stated are probably why recruits even consider the school, and you can't discount them as possibilities.

Maybe Lance doesn't have a messiah complex; maybe he's over carrying a team.  I don't know.  These are just factors pro and con; without some winning and some sense that a coach can get a player to the next level, the pluses go for naught.  I do believe that if the team can string together a year or two of winning seasons, more recruits will come.  Personally, I think some changes need to be made for that to happen, but I think it's foolish to make this out to be some entirely un-recruit appealing place.

  St. John's media coverage has sucked the last few years.  Hell, 25% of the games aren't even televised anymore.  This was never the case in past years.  All the games except maybe 1 or 2 were easily found on TV.

 

Look: what I am saying here in part is that there is a lot to sell at St. John's.  I do hope that if there isn't a 20-win team on the floor this year, they change the staff; that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot to sell.  The chance to join a winning squad is a great help to recruiting, of course. 

We should get this topic back on Doron Lamb.  Reasons whether or not to come to St. John's can be a topic on its own.

Here's a question: spectacular or not, is another guard what the team needs, especially going into 2011?  I would say a spectacular talent is always welcome, even if they have to make 4-guard lineups to work Doron Lamb in.

Look: what I am saying here in part is that there is a lot to sell at St. John's.  I do hope that if there isn't a 20-win team on the floor this year, they change the staff; that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot to sell.  The chance to join a winning squad is a great help to recruiting, of course. 

We should get this topic back on Doron Lamb.  Reasons whether or not to come to St. John's can be a topic on its own.

Here's a question: spectacular or not, is another guard what the team needs, especially going into 2011?  I would say a spectacular talent is always welcome, even if they have to make 4-guard lineups to work Doron Lamb in.

  If he's that talented, bring him in, regardless of position.  We are in no position to be picky at this point.  I apologize for diverting the thread from topic. My intention was not put down SJU at all,  just to answer a question posed by another poster.

winning changes everything. Potential at St. John's is huge.

No worries, boo.  These are all valid points.

I've been to a ton of schools and St. John's dorms are all bigger, newer, and nicer in almost every aspect. This is one thing I must compliment St. John's on.

Media coverage: we have 2 sports radio stations, multiple newspapers, multiple online places to discuss hoops, MSG, SNY, YES, etc. Maybe some people don't realize all over the country coverage isn't like that and take it for granted.

Resources are plentiful mostly due to the fact of being in New York. Perhaps again some people take that for granted.

Current players being upperclassmen in the Big East this holds true for us for the 2010/2011 class which is what we're gearing discussion to.

I'm not trying to make St. John's out to be the best thing out there or overhype it but I don't get the point of trying to make St. John's sound like a less attractive choice for a top recruit. Recruits do read the site.

All your points are valid strengths just not significant advantages over other schools.

Most big schools have special dorms/suites for hoops players, I'm sure they compete with SJU and SJU with them but it's not a significant advantage.  And with regard to the campus life just outside the doors of these dorms SJU is lacking substantially compared to most of the schools they should be recruiting against.

Pretty much every major city in America has two sports radio stations, we have three, and the sports programming on cable is plentiful but yes there are a couple NY centric sports cable brands so you got me there.  But like it or not ESPN rules the sports airwaves - both TV and to a lesser extent radio - nationally.  SJU being in NY certainly doesn't hurt but NY media isn't breaking down Monasch's door for opportunities to cover SJU.

Resource wise I agree if SJU showed any competency in leveraging the NYC for corporate sponsorship dollars this would be an advantage but they don't.  I thought you were talking about resources of the school both direct and through boosters and these are two areas SJU doesn't compete.

I agree there are plenty of reasons to play at SJU and there is a lot of potential but if, as you said, this team doesn't win a bunch this year and show they can be competitive on the court and establish Norm as a coach kids might want to play for the other factors are immaterial.  And sorry for discussing more about the long term implications of the factors, realize it's on a 2010 recruits thread but thought we had evolved to a more general discussion.

Quote from: Dave on June 17, 2009, 07:26:35 PM

I've been to a ton of schools and St. John's dorms are all bigger, newer, and nicer in almost every aspect. This is one thing I must compliment St. John's on.

Media coverage: we have 2 sports radio stations, multiple newspapers, multiple online places to discuss hoops, MSG, SNY, YES, etc. Maybe some people don't realize all over the country coverage isn't like that and take it for granted.

Resources are plentiful mostly due to the fact of being in New York. Perhaps again some people take that for granted.

Current players being upperclassmen in the Big East this holds true for us for the 2010/2011 class which is what we're gearing discussion to.

I'm not trying to make St. John's out to be the best thing out there or overhype it but I don't get the point of trying to make St. John's sound like a less attractive choice for a top recruit. Recruits do read the site.

All your points are valid strengths just not significant advantages over other schools.

Most big schools have special dorms/suites for hoops players, I'm sure they compete with SJU and SJU with them but it's not a significant advantage.  And with regard to the campus life just outside the doors of these dorms SJU is lacking substantially compared to most of the schools they should be recruiting against.

Pretty much every major city in America has two sports radio stations, we have three, and the sports programming on cable is plentiful but yes there are a couple NY centric sports cable brands so you got me there.  But like it or not ESPN rules the sports airwaves - both TV and to a lesser extent radio - nationally.  SJU being in NY certainly doesn't hurt but NY media isn't breaking down Monasch's door for opportunities to cover SJU.

Resource wise I agree if SJU showed any competency in leveraging the NYC for corporate sponsorship dollars this would be an advantage but they don't.  I thought you were talking about resources of the school both direct and through boosters and these are two areas SJU doesn't compete.

I agree there are plenty of reasons to play at SJU and there is a lot of potential but if, as you said, this team doesn't win a bunch this year and show they can be competitive on the court and establish Norm as a coach kids might want to play for the other factors are immaterial.  And sorry for discussing more about the long term implications of the factors, realize it's on a 2010 recruits thread but thought we had evolved to a more general discussion.

Our opinions are very similar. I think we can improve and St. John's has potential to be a better school and program. Whether we tap into that potential or not is another question. It's something I've been waiting on for a while and we're slowly moving in the right direction.

http://new.kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=21842

- Doron Lamb on UK’s staff: “I like the coaching staff. They have two New York guys and one Oak Hill guy and the coach is good, he makes pros.”

  This is the kind of stuff that will haunt this staff.  There is no argument.  OUCH!

Quote from: Not The Sleaveless Guy on June 18, 2009, 06:02:09 PM

http://new.kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=21842

- Doron Lamb on UK’s staff: “I like the coaching staff. They have two New York guys and one Oak Hill guy and the coach is good, he makes pros.”

  This is the kind of stuff that will haunt this staff.  There is no argument.  OUCH!

It won't matter. After six years of, at best, nearly  mediocre basketball, there are so few fans left. They've outlasted all but the die hards.

Not looking good.

Not looking good.

 please explain

I think that's in reference to Kentucky's involvement.

Quote from: true 3 blue on June 24, 2009, 12:59:30 AM

Not looking good.

 please explain

“They make pros, and that’s what I want to be.”

  ST.John's doesn't!
   that's how i read it.

Quote from: boo3 on June 17, 2009, 04:38:37 PM

Quote from: Dave on June 17, 2009, 03:27:52 PM

Quote from: pmg911 on June 17, 2009, 12:57:12 PM

if you are a high level recruit at this point. . why would you come to St. John's..?

why wouldn't you want to come to St. John's?

  just playing devils advocate here:

  1. Horrific brand of basketball to both play and watch
   2.  Been almost 10years since program has produced a pro. 
  3.  sparse crowds.
  4.  Jaimaca ain't exactly Chapel Hill

1. I enjoyed watching our team at times last season.
2. 10 years past has nothing to do with next
3. win and the place will be packed
4. Chapel Hill ain't exactly Madison Square Garden

1.  No one cares what you personally, the creator of st johns coolest fan website, enjoyed.

2.  10 years might not have anything to do with next, but the last 2 do.
3.  you can say that about any college anywhere
4.  Chapel Hill is an amazing college town where kids from the city would love to go for a few years.  Kids play in MSG in HIGH school now, it doesn't have the same allure, and the Knicks suck.  Other schools play in pro arenas as well.

PMG is totally right - why would a top 20 recruit make a leap of faith in Norm based on nothing to come here?

You know why they don't come here?

1.  Norm runs a boring, ineffective offense.
2.  No players have had success in the NBA since a FRASCHILLA recruit.
3.  We aren't an NCAA caliber team - yet.

All kids care about are 1) the NBA, 2) winning, and 3) playing in a fun offense and showing off their talents.

We haven't done any of that yet.  If this class of 9 juniors can pull it together and Norm can get a clue/improve, then I won't feel the same way and would think it was very possible for Norm to get top talent despite not getting it yet.  But there is NO reason, as of now, for a top 20 recruit to come here over Duke, UNC, Kansas, Georgetown, UCLA, USC, Maryland, Georgia Tech, or a whole hoard of other schools who have at least one of those factors that we don't have.  Simple as that.