Norm's Job Security

i thought i would bring this post back up! LOL.....going to do it everytime we lose.

its definitely worth talking about as well as justified especially in the fashion we lose in.

Quote from: NYCbuckeye on February 14, 2008, 12:54:29 PM

i thought i would bring this post back up! LOL.....going to do it everytime we lose.

its definitely worth talking about as well as justified especially in the fashion we lose in.

Think of it in terms of recruits. If you are a kid with pro aspirations, would you come play for a team that struggles to score in the 50's? Is this the way you would want to show case your talents? The last time a basketball team ran this kind of offense, you would only be able to watch it on a black & white TV   

I think with the fact that he has zero recruits signed for 2008 it makes it easier to pull the trigger for the administration which might be the reason we're throwing scholarships around to anyone this past two weeks.

Quote from: JJ on February 14, 2008, 12:58:50 PM

Quote from: NYCbuckeye on February 14, 2008, 12:54:29 PM

i thought i would bring this post back up! LOL.....going to do it everytime we lose.

its definitely worth talking about as well as justified especially in the fashion we lose in.

Think of it in terms of recruits. If you are a kid with pro aspirations, would you come play for a team that struggles to score in the 50's? Is this the way you would want to show case your talents? The last time a basketball team ran this kind of offense, you would only be able to watch it on a black & white TV   

you mean the 40s .....anyway i mentioned this in a previous post, its unfortunate the sampson violations occurred during the norm era, i bet the administration truely feels they now hit a home run. is it too much to ask a school that cost over $40K MBA tuition to pony up and pay for a true homerun coach? honestly, sju is not known for its academics as they certainly cannot compete w/NYU or Columbia in the NYC area, they do not have a football program. their trademark is NYC basketball. nationally schools are known for their strengths. can you imagine NYU without STERN school of business? or Columbia without Teachers college...or OHIO STATE (my undergrad alma mater) without a competitive football program? this is completely unacceptable. SJU has the tradition and pipeline for talent. this CAN be fixed, but a new man needs to run the show.

Lot of talk on the oter boards that Hewitt is on his way here, anyone here the same from a reliable source or is it all just wishful thinking. I think he is about the level of exper. coach we can land at this time. We are not going to land a stud coach and hopefully no more asst or small school coach. Please someone end this nightmare this year!!!

I don't doubt the legitimacy about the rumors however its an outside person driving the wagon. I'm not sure if St. John's admin is on board or not. Also if I asked anyone at St. John's they would deny it like the plague. Although I've expressed my feelings on Hewitt and they aren't strong. I'm driving and starting the Bobby Knight rumors who knows maybe someone will believe them and they'll become true. I can dream.

I don't doubt the legitimacy about the rumors however its an outside person driving the wagon. I'm not sure if St. John's admin is on board or not. Also if I asked anyone at St. John's they would deny it like the plague. Although I've expressed my feelings on Hewitt and they aren't strong. I'm driving and starting the Bobby Knight rumors who knows maybe someone will believe them and they'll become true. I can dream.

JJ
The person who posted that rumor is not really a Hewiit fan, and does have good sources so I would not doubt it. Hewitt wouldnot be my first choice but at least he is a real basketball coach and not just some guy standing on the sideline. Would be a big improvement. Well actually the bum that yells every morning that the world is ending by my subway every morning would be an improvement.

Has anyone thought that the administration might just keep Norm as the head coach but require him to find more experienced  coaches behind him?  There's obviously something about Norm that they like in the man.  I can't imagine there won't be some kind of change.

Also, the talk of "we'll evaluate," especially without a "vote of confidence," raises an eyebrow.

We did lose one of our better assistant to memphis this past season wonder why he left?? haha

I don't doubt the legitimacy about the rumors however its an outside person driving the wagon. I'm not sure if St. John's admin is on board or not. Also if I asked anyone at St. John's they would deny it like the plague. Although I've expressed my feelings on Hewitt and they aren't strong. I'm driving and starting the Bobby Knight rumors who knows maybe someone will believe them and they'll become true. I can dream.

I was told by someone I trust that Bobby Knight is heading back to Indiana when they can Sampson. . which is just a matter of time...

Quote from: JJ on February 14, 2008, 09:59:50 PM

I don't doubt the legitimacy about the rumors however its an outside person driving the wagon. I'm not sure if St. John's admin is on board or not. Also if I asked anyone at St. John's they would deny it like the plague. Although I've expressed my feelings on Hewitt and they aren't strong. I'm driving and starting the Bobby Knight rumors who knows maybe someone will believe them and they'll become true. I can dream.

I was told by someone I trust that Bobby Knight is heading back to Indiana when they can Sampson. . which is just a matter of time...

I guess Miles Brand has no more pull at IU...

Maybe that's why Bobby quit in the first place.  I don't even mean that as joke, the timing is curious all around.

Wouldn't want Bobby Knight here anyway.  He hasn't been a great coach in 15 years, and we need someone who's gonna be here for a while.

We're turning down Bobby Knight now?  I think some of us have a bit of an inflated view of our program.

And I think there is more of a chance that Calipari comes to St. John's than Knight back to Indiana.  And I don't think there is any chance Calipari is coming here.

I think he is would like to see someone with 15 year potential not 5....I don't think he is saying he doesn't want bobby knight because of his coaching ability.

I think he is would like to see someone with 15 year potential not 5....I don't think he is saying he doesn't want bobby knight because of his coaching ability.

I don't disagree with the fact that we get someone for the long term but this is what he typed...

"he hasn't been a great coach in 15 years"

I guess he lost all that basketball knowledge along the way somewhere.  And I'm still waiting for the name of a coach that is a sure thing that is also a realistic possibility of taking the job?  Haven't heard one yet.  Hewitt is the closest one to that description.  But I'm not buying the rumor that was posted.  Its probably something a couple of bigwigs want to see happen but I doubt very much that St. John's will pull the trigger because of that.

We're turning down Bobby Knight now?  I think some of us have a bit of an inflated view of our program.

And I think there is more of a chance that Calipari comes to St. John's than Knight back to Indiana.  And I don't think there is any chance Calipari is coming here.

Going from Norm to Knight would be about as extreme as you can get. One guy is supposedly a nice guy, who couldn't coach a dog to chase a cat. The other guy is a great coach but a nut. I am pretty sure Knight would have shot Geno and Mase jr at some point in the last 4 years

Quote from: JJ on February 15, 2008, 03:22:30 PM

I think he is would like to see someone with 15 year potential not 5....I don't think he is saying he doesn't want bobby knight because of his coaching ability.

I don't disagree with the fact that we get someone for the long term but this is what he typed...

"he hasn't been a great coach in 15 years"

I guess he lost all that basketball knowledge along the way somewhere.  And I'm still waiting for the name of a coach that is a sure thing that is also a realistic possibility of taking the job?  Haven't heard one yet.  Hewitt is the closest one to that description.  But I'm not buying the rumor that was posted.  Its probably something a couple of bigwigs want to see happen but I doubt very much that St. John's will pull the trigger because of that.

first: Bobby Knight is simply not a good person.  Not someone I'd trust my (future) kids with.  He's demanding and sharp, but also rigid, a hypocrite, a power hungry a-hole. 

second: How long can that man coach?

third: Have you watched Indiana games?  Or Texas Tech games?  They're technically sound but he avoids running plays for the three point shot.  Does he switch up his defenses?  Not really.  He plays a half court offense that hasn't really changed in the last 15 years!  What have his results been? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Knight

Sweet Sixteen in 2005.
Sweet Sixteen in '94.
6 first round outs. 
3 second round outs (one in '99 when St. John's just smoked Indiana.  That game was a thrill to watch, but my Indiana friend turned it off in the second half). 
Twice missing the NCAAs (1- NIT, 1 no post season).

He's been a little over .500 in his conference seasons.  That's not greatness.  It's just not. Don't make him out to be a great coach when he's been merely solid for a long time now.  Knight has technically sound teams, but the good talent doesn't want to play for him.  And you can't match up against the great teams in this league without some talent. 

fourth: I don't want SJU to drop major coin on a guy who craps on a school's good name with his behavior (the cussing with his grandson in his lap, his shotgun incident, his general demeanor), who is only going to be here for a couple of years.  A guy who thinks he's bigger than the name on the jersey.  A coach should also be a good ambassador, don't you think?

A guy who hasn't shown that he could beat the big players of the Big Twelve, a conference with Kansas, Texas, and Texas A&M. 

We have U Conn, 'Cuse, Georgetown, Louisville, Marquette, and possibly West Virginia.  I'd rather roll the dice with a younger coach who will establish a pipeline of talent in NYC.

 

first: Bobby Knight is simply not a good person.  Not someone I'd trust my (future) kids with.  He's demanding and sharp, but also rigid, a hypocrite, a power hungry a-hole. 

second: How long can that man coach?

third: Have you watched Indiana games?  Or Texas Tech games?  They're technically sound but he avoids running plays for the three point shot.  Does he switch up his defenses?  Not really.  He plays a half court offense that hasn't really changed in the last 15 years!  What have his results been? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Knight

Sweet Sixteen in 2005.
Sweet Sixteen in '94.
6 first round outs. 
3 second round outs (one in '99 when St. John's just smoked Indiana.  That game was a thrill to watch, but my Indiana friend turned it off in the second half). 
Twice missing the NCAAs (1- NIT, 1 no post season).

He's been a little over .500 in his conference seasons.  That's not greatness.  It's just not. Don't make him out to be a great coach when he's been merely solid for a long time now.  Knight has technically sound teams, but the good talent doesn't want to play for him.  And you can't match up against the great teams in this league without some talent. 

fourth: I don't want SJU to drop major coin on a guy who craps on a school's good name with his behavior (the cussing with his grandson in his lap, his shotgun incident, his general demeanor), who is only going to be here for a couple of years.  A guy who thinks he's bigger than the name on the jersey.  A coach should also be a good ambassador, don't you think?

A guy who hasn't shown that he could beat the big players of the Big Twelve, a conference with Kansas, Texas, and Texas A&M. 

We have U Conn, 'Cuse, Georgetown, Louisville, Marquette, and possibly West Virginia.  I'd rather roll the dice with a younger coach who will establish a pipeline of talent in NYC.

Let me start off by saying Bob Knight will not be coaching St. John's.  I think thats pretty safe to say.  I agreed that we should be looking for someone that can be here a while. 

Now Point by point:
First:  I guess you don't want your kids to graduate from college, learn discipline or work ethic.  You should expect more from your kids. 

Second:  I agreed with you.

Three:  I don't even know where to start with this one. Do you actually think you are a better coach than Bob Knight?  You are going to criticize Bobby Effin Knight?  If you gonna criticize Bobby Knight's coaching ability just what coach would satisfy you?  Maybe you have mentioned someone...I haven't read all your posts.  Don't give me Cal or Pitino...we have no shot.  Give me a realistic name. 

Again who do you consider a great coach?...a guy with 902 wins?  a guy with 27 straight post season appearances run?  I guess you're a "what have you done for me lately" kind of guy.  Well when he took over at Texas Tech they were coming off four straight losing seasons.  First season he is there and they make the NCAAs.  He got irrelevant Texas Tech to the SWEET 16!! 

Here's a parting quote about Bob Knight from John Wooden..."I don't think there's ever been a better teacher of the game of basketball than Bob. I don't always approve of his methods, but his players for the most part are very loyal to him. I would say that no player that ever played for him would not say he did not come out a stronger person."

Fourth: "I'd rather roll the dice with a younger coach who will establish a pipeline of talent in NYC."

You mean like Norm?

Quote from: peter on February 15, 2008, 08:06:54 PM

 

first: Bobby Knight is simply not a good person.  Not someone I'd trust my (future) kids with.  He's demanding and sharp, but also rigid, a hypocrite, a power hungry a-hole. 

second: How long can that man coach?

third: Have you watched Indiana games?  Or Texas Tech games?  They're technically sound but he avoids running plays for the three point shot.  Does he switch up his defenses?  Not really.  He plays a half court offense that hasn't really changed in the last 15 years!  What have his results been? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Knight

Sweet Sixteen in 2005.
Sweet Sixteen in '94.
6 first round outs. 
3 second round outs (one in '99 when St. John's just smoked Indiana.  That game was a thrill to watch, but my Indiana friend turned it off in the second half). 
Twice missing the NCAAs (1- NIT, 1 no post season).

He's been a little over .500 in his conference seasons.  That's not greatness.  It's just not. Don't make him out to be a great coach when he's been merely solid for a long time now.  Knight has technically sound teams, but the good talent doesn't want to play for him.  And you can't match up against the great teams in this league without some talent. 

fourth: I don't want SJU to drop major coin on a guy who craps on a school's good name with his behavior (the cussing with his grandson in his lap, his shotgun incident, his general demeanor), who is only going to be here for a couple of years.  A guy who thinks he's bigger than the name on the jersey.  A coach should also be a good ambassador, don't you think?

A guy who hasn't shown that he could beat the big players of the Big Twelve, a conference with Kansas, Texas, and Texas A&M. 

We have U Conn, 'Cuse, Georgetown, Louisville, Marquette, and possibly West Virginia.  I'd rather roll the dice with a younger coach who will establish a pipeline of talent in NYC.

Let me start off by saying Bob Knight will not be coaching St. John's.  I think thats pretty safe to say.  I agreed that we should be looking for someone that can be here a while. 

Now Point by point:
First:  I guess you don't want your kids to graduate from college, learn discipline or work ethic.  You should expect more from your kids. 

Second:  I agreed with you.

Three:  I don't even know where to start with this one. Do you actually think you are a better coach than Bob Knight?  You are going to criticize Bobby Effin Knight?  If you gonna criticize Bobby Knight's coaching ability just what coach would satisfy you?  Maybe you have mentioned someone...I haven't read all your posts.  Don't give me Cal or Pitino...we have no shot.  Give me a realistic name. 

Again who do you consider a great coach?...a guy with 902 wins?  a guy with 27 straight post season appearances run?  I guess you're a "what have you done for me lately" kind of guy.  Well when he took over at Texas Tech they were coming off four straight losing seasons.  First season he is there and they make the NCAAs.  He got irrelevant Texas Tech to the SWEET 16!! 

Here's a parting quote about Bob Knight from John Wooden..."I don't think there's ever been a better teacher of the game of basketball than Bob. I don't always approve of his methods, but his players for the most part are very loyal to him. I would say that no player that ever played for him would not say he did not come out a stronger person."

Fourth: "I'd rather roll the dice with a younger coach who will establish a pipeline of talent in NYC."

You mean like Norm?

I was gonna reply point by point, but we don't need a flame war over a coach who's not coming to St. John's.  But don't get into some personal s**t because I didn't do that to you.  I never said I was a better coach than Bobby Knight.  What, only coaches can comment on results?  On the numbers?  On what they see?  What, if I criticize Bobby Effin Knight you'll toss a chair across a court at me?

Bobby Knight's way is not the only way to instill work ethic or graduate players.  "I don't always approve of his methods" is putting it mildly.  He's extreme, he's pompous, he's overly temperamental about the smallest things.  You can get your graduated players, good work ethic, and a first round exit with most competent coaches.  As a fan, he's embarrassing to have as the face of one's team.   Who's to say, when he steps back on the sidelines, how long his vaunted work ethic and commitment to the team will last?  Walking out on one's team midseason would be a punk move for one of his players, and I apply the same standard to Knight.

Now, our current coach is proving himself incompetent and he has not built a pipeline to NYC players.  Don't you want sustained success?  What sustained success would Knight bring?  If we had a team with 4 seniors and they're just not meeting their ability, maybe Coach Knight is the guy to bring in.  But with a young roster?  To make a pro analogy, he's more like Hubie Brown than Larry Brown at this point.  Good coach, has been around for a long time, gets his wins, but he's not getting you deep in the postseason. 

If you're bringing in a big name coach, that's got to be the expectation.

For my money, St. John's needs to bring in a coach who still has some growth to do.  I think the Cal idea is right up there with bringing Dean Smith out of retirement-- not gonna happen.  Pitino is a long shot.  I like taking a look at the mid-major coaches, the Sean Millers and perhaps Keno Davis.  I'm sure there are other names who are not having those kind of hot seasons who are excellent x's and o's guys or decent x + o guys but excellent recruiters. 

Actually, here's an article that sums up my feelings on Knight's coaching in the past years-- good not great.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=134.

I was gonna reply point by point, but we don't need a flame war over a coach who's not coming to St. John's.  But don't get into some personal s**t because I didn't do that to you.  I never said I was a better coach than Bobby Knight.  What, only coaches can comment on results?  On the numbers?  On what they see?  What, if I criticize Bobby Effin Knight you'll toss a chair across a court at me?

Bobby Knight's way is not the only way to instill work ethic or graduate players.  "I don't always approve of his methods" is putting it mildly.  He's extreme, he's pompous, he's overly temperamental about the smallest things.  You can get your graduated players, good work ethic, and a first round exit with most competent coaches.  As a fan, he's embarrassing to have as the face of one's team.   Who's to say, when he steps back on the sidelines, how long his vaunted work ethic and commitment to the team will last?  Walking out on one's team midseason would be a punk move for one of his players, and I apply the same standard to Knight.

Now, our current coach is proving himself incompetent and he has not built a pipeline to NYC players.  Don't you want sustained success?  What sustained success would Knight bring?  If we had a team with 4 seniors and they're just not meeting their ability, maybe Coach Knight is the guy to bring in.  But with a young roster?  To make a pro analogy, he's more like Hubie Brown than Larry Brown at this point.  Good coach, has been around for a long time, gets his wins, but he's not getting you deep in the postseason. 

If you're bringing in a big name coach, that's got to be the expectation.

For my money, St. John's needs to bring in a coach who still has some growth to do.  I think the Cal idea is right up there with bringing Dean Smith out of retirement-- not gonna happen.  Pitino is a long shot.  I like taking a look at the mid-major coaches, the Sean Millers and perhaps Keno Davis.  I'm sure there are other names who are not having those kind of hot seasons who are excellent x's and o's guys or decent x + o guys but excellent recruiters. 

Not sure where I got personal...but I'll respectfully disagree that Knight was a mediocre coach over the last 15 years.  Its understandable that you don't like him...and I said that I agreed he's not a good fit here.  You may not like the way he did things but he got the job done and an overwhelming majority of his players loved him...

I just don't understand how someone thinks he's not a good coach...that somehow the game passed him by...he took an irrelevant program to the NCAAs 3 of his 4 first years...but he didn't get further than the Sweet 16 so he's a failure?  Criticizing for his behavior is one thing but to say he is a mediocre coach is a bit of a reach.

I don't know enough about Miller...I haven't seen Xavier play but his record is impressive.  I believe this is Davis' first year...good genes...but hard to tell what your getting with only one year under his belt.

Having said all this I still think Norm is coming back next year.