Norm's offense

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Norm's offense
« on: January 04, 2012, 08:54:00 AM »
Now before I begin let me state that I understand that we only have 6 and a half players. I also understand that we are young and very small. Furthermore I fully understand we have the worst shooting team in the nation. With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this! Now I understand the concept of limiting the opponents attempts in order for the team to try not to lose by 30. But the idea of running down the shot clock is to have movement and try and at least get off a good shot. Princeton used to run the clock down than get back door layups or threes off penetration. Even Norm's offense was designed to have his two"best players" Mase and Geno have the ball as the clock wound down. Under Dunlap whoever has the ball with 2 seconds left is shooting a really bad shot. We have to lead the nation in shot clock violations. So in short if my life depended on it I would have more faith in Geno or Mase firing away from three than have Stith trying to shoot over anyone taller than Peter Dinklage. I think instead of worrying about Lavin's health becoming a problem for recruiting, we should be more worried about our offense. If any kid watches us play they would certainly choose anyone else. In fact I am starting to get afraid we might lose the people we have. It is no coincidence that we played better in the 2nd half of the last two games when we scrapped the shot clock violation offense. I mean it is really basic. We have enough trouble scoring w/o letting the defense rest until there is 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

MCNPA

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2012, 09:04:10 AM »
Now before I begin let me state that I understand that we only have 6 and a half players. I also understand that we are young and very small. Furthermore I fully understand we have the worst shooting team in the nation. With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this! Now I understand the concept of limiting the opponents attempts in order for the team to try not to lose by 30. But the idea of running down the shot clock is to have movement and try and at least get off a good shot. Princeton used to run the clock down than get back door layups or threes off penetration. Even Norm's offense was designed to have his two"best players" Mase and Geno have the ball as the clock wound down. Under Dunlap whoever has the ball with 2 seconds left is shooting a really bad shot. We have to lead the nation in shot clock violations. So in short if my life depended on it I would have more faith in Geno or Mase firing away from three than have Stith trying to shoot over anyone taller than Peter Dinklage. I think instead of worrying about Lavin's health becoming a problem for recruiting, we should be more worried about our offense. If any kid watches us play they would certainly choose anyone else. In fact I am starting to get afraid we might lose the people we have. It is no coincidence that we played better in the 2nd half of the last two games when we scrapped the shot clock violation offense. I mean it is really basic. We have enough trouble scoring w/o letting the defense rest until there is 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

We had a really bad game or two shooting.   2 games ago we put up 90+ on Providence.  These kids will improve.

Foad

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2012, 09:26:50 AM »
Now before I begin let me state that I understand that we only have 6 and a half players. I also understand that we are young and very small. Furthermore I fully understand we have the worst shooting team in the nation. With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this! Now I understand the concept of limiting the opponents attempts in order for the team to try not to lose by 30. But the idea of running down the shot clock is to have movement and try and at least get off a good shot. Princeton used to run the clock down than get back door layups or threes off penetration. Even Norm's offense was designed to have his two"best players" Mase and Geno have the ball as the clock wound down. Under Dunlap whoever has the ball with 2 seconds left is shooting a really bad shot. We have to lead the nation in shot clock violations. So in short if my life depended on it I would have more faith in Geno or Mase firing away from three than have Stith trying to shoot over anyone taller than Peter Dinklage. I think instead of worrying about Lavin's health becoming a problem for recruiting, we should be more worried about our offense. If any kid watches us play they would certainly choose anyone else. In fact I am starting to get afraid we might lose the people we have. It is no coincidence that we played better in the 2nd half of the last two games when we scrapped the shot clock violation offense. I mean it is really basic. We have enough trouble scoring w/o letting the defense rest until there is 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

Last summer you and I had a discussion about the style of play in the upcoming year. I thought they'd play the up tempo system that TGAPL wanted to implement regardless of personnel - you said they'd slow it down because they'd have to. So you're complaining despite predicting last summer what was going to happen.

The problem is that of the 6.5 players, only two of them can make plays. Phil Green (everyone's favorite player while Nuri, who can't shoot at all, was here) was 0-9 last night - 3 points in 32 minutes. I like Pointer but he can't yet create a shot in the half court, Gazuntheit Achiewa is mostly pointless against Division 1 teams, Garrett has been on campus like 20 minutes and Stith is hamburger helper - he wouldn't even be in the mix if there was more meat.

What is slightly interesting is that they had as many shots yesterday as Louisville - they just didn't make them. So it's not like they're slowing things down to a crawl. There was a sequence in the middle or so of the first half yesterday where they ran the shot clock down several times in a row, but they ended the half something like 2 for 30 - meaing that there were 35 or 40 possessions in the half, which is more than enough if the ball goes in the basket. Is that inefficiency partly a function of pointlessly passing the ball around the perimeter? Yes. But pointlessly passing the ball around the perimeter is also partly a function of having no one who can shoot or make a play and no interior presence.

I think that when TGAPL says that along with next years class this is the foundation moving forward he means what he says. He doesn't care about this year at all - and especially now that he's not even coaching. All this year is is a bridge to next year, when he brings in enough bodies to compete. I suspect all he cares about is getting the players in college shape, teaching them the system and keeping them all healthy. The only people who thought this team was going anywhere this year were deluded fanbois anyway.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2012, 09:38:56 AM »
I am not blaming the kids. When we play teams that the coaching staff feels the game could get ugly are offense grounds to a stand still. Speaking of the players though a few notes after witnessing my first live game of the year.

GG- undersized and most of the more informed on these boards( all three of us) figured he would struggle in the BE. With that being said he is more physically gifted than either Singleton or Glover ever were and I think he should stop worrying about getting his shot blocked and just go straight up. Also I feel that whenever a team idiotically plays man against us GG should get the ball more on iso's as he can beat almost anyone guarding him off the dribble.

Harkless-He is going to be a first round draft pick this year or the next. However the difference from hanging around a couple years and being a good pro is for him to be able to hit a 15-18 foot jumper consistently. I would never begrudge a kid for grabbing the money but I think it would suit him to stay another year or two to refine his game.

Pointer-Has better form than than Willie Glass and I think of all the players his shot has the best chance to improve. Doesn't have bad form and elevates, just needs more arc. Again if anyone is stupid enough to play man against us I think Dom can look for his shot a little more as far as driving to the hoop.

Harrison- I really like this kid. Plays angry without being a knucklehead. I can't believe this but I think I might actually agree with lenn Robbins. I think he could play the point. Also he is a far better 2 point shooter than three point shooter. Also he has a herky jerky thing going where he is going to get his points even if it is not always pretty. I think right now because of his flat shot the three pointer is a little out of his range. He looks much cleaner on pull up jumpers.

Greene-I think the wheels have fallen off the Greene bandwagon. I think he can be a rotation guy as a guard off the bench but right now he is probably the worst starting point guard in the BE.

Garrett- He can jump, he is lefty and supposedly throws 95 mph. I think a lefty who could throw 95 has a great shot of making the majors. A 6-6 skinny guy whose only basketball skill is jumping is going to struggle.

Stith-It is not his fault as on any other D 1 school he would not be playing, but please know your limitations. I think Louisville had a pool going to see who could block his shot the most. When Rudy got in that ND game he did not ask to play QB. When Stith plays he should never, ever, ever go below the foul line. Actually he does not have a terrible touch despite his strange looking shot. If open I think he could hit some threes which on this team is a much needed commodity.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2012, 09:45:07 AM »
Fun
Yes I predicted this was the way we are going to play that does not mean I agree with it. In theory as I think I mentioned on that preseason thread I agree with you. I am not saying we need to play like the Westhead LMU teams but the shot clock violation offense needs to be be scrapped. let the kids play a little. Does anyone care if we lose by 25 instead of 18?

Poison

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2012, 09:51:23 AM »
I am not blaming the kids. When we play teams that the coaching staff feels the game could get ugly are offense grounds to a stand still. Speaking of the players though a few notes after witnessing my first live game of the year.

GG- undersized and most of the more informed on these boards( all three of us) figured he would struggle in the BE. With that being said he is more physically gifted than either Singleton or Glover ever were and I think he should stop worrying about getting his shot blocked and just go straight up. Also I feel that whenever a team idiotically plays man against us GG should get the ball more on iso's as he can beat almost anyone guarding him off the dribble.

Harkless-He is going to be a first round draft pick this year or the next. However the difference from hanging around a couple years and being a good pro is for him to be able to hit a 15-18 foot jumper consistently. I would never begrudge a kid for grabbing the money but I think it would suit him to stay another year or two to refine his game.

Pointer-Has better form than than Willie Glass and I think of all the players his shot has the best chance to improve. Doesn't have bad form and elevates, just needs more arc. Again if anyone is stupid enough to play man against us I think Dom can look for his shot a little more as far as driving to the hoop.

Harrison- I really like this kid. Plays angry without being a knucklehead. I can't believe this but I think I might actually agree with lenn Robbins. I think he could play the point. Also he is a far better 2 point shooter than three point shooter. Also he has a herky jerky thing going where he is going to get his points even if it is not always pretty. I think right now because of his flat shot the three pointer is a little out of his range. He looks much cleaner on pull up jumpers.

Greene-I think the wheels have fallen off the Greene bandwagon. I think he can be a rotation guy as a guard off the bench but right now he is probably the worst starting point guard in the BE.

Garrett- He can jump, he is lefty and supposedly throws 95 mph. I think a lefty who could throw 95 has a great shot of making the majors. A 6-6 skinny guy whose only basketball skill is jumping is going to struggle.

Stith-It is not his fault as on any other D 1 school he would not be playing, but please know your limitations. I think Louisville had a pool going to see who could block his shot the most. When Rudy got in that ND game he did not ask to play QB. When Stith plays he should never, ever, ever go below the foul line. Actually he does not have a terrible touch despite his strange looking shot. If open I think he could hit some threes which on this team is a much needed commodity.

There is NO WAY Harkless is a pro now. He had one dominating game against a terrible Prov team, and people are talking NBA. That's Omar Cook crazy. And Omar Cook was in the top 3 in assists in the f'n nation. And he was NOT EVEN CLOSE to being ready.

If he was a pro, he would have lit up Daniels and Kuric. Two guys that aren't going to be drafted under any circumstance. He probably needs at least 3 years. He is incredibly raw on defense. His shooting is below average. He puts it on the floor, gets stripped or throws up an air ball or a brick more often than not. He's play the 3 in the league, and be asked to guard Lebron James, Carmelo Anthony and Paul Pierce. No f'n way.

He can't guard players not fit for the d league.

He he has a world of potential, but let's put the pipe down.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2012, 10:06:20 AM »
Poison
When someone gets drafted, even in the first round they are not expected to guard Carmelo, Lebron, etc. right away You keep saying this and it is pretty stupid. No one is saying if Harkless left now he would be rookie of the year or even be in an NBA rotation. He has all the tools and I believe if entered the draft after this season he would be a late first round pick purely based on his potential.

Poison

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2012, 10:12:19 AM »
Poison
When someone gets drafted, even in the first round they are not expected to guard Carmelo, Lebron, etc. right away You keep saying this and it is pretty stupid. No one is saying if Harkless left now he would be rookie of the year or even be in an NBA rotation. He has all the tools and I believe if entered the draft after this season he would be a late first round pick purely based on his potential.

He might be, but he also might get drafted in the second round and not get picked at all. He needs to work on several areas. He doesn't seem like the kind of kid that would do something so incredibly stupid. Omar Cook and Erick Barkley were that stupid. They were last first round early second rounders based on potential.

And both of them were much further along than Harkless. This NBA talk more than any one poster should be the first thing that is banned from any message board. It's insane.

MCNPA

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2012, 10:15:59 AM »
"Harrison- I really like this kid. Plays angry without being a knucklehead. I can't believe this but I think I might actually agree with lenn Robbins. I think he could play the point. Also he is a far better 2 point shooter than three point shooter. Also he has a herky jerky thing going where he is going to get his points even if it is not always pretty. I think right now because of his flat shot the three pointer is a little out of his range. He looks much cleaner on pull up jumpers. "

He is in the top 10 in the big east in 3's made and hits them at a decent clip at .32% which also puts him in the top 10 I believe in 3pt%.  He certainly is a good 3-point shooter, if not yet consistent enough to crack the top 5 in the league.  To say the 3-pointer is a little out of his range is inaccurate, because statistically he's somewhere among the 6-10th best 3pt shooter in the league.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 10:19:40 AM by MCNPA »

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 10:20:39 AM »
I think it would be best for him to stay and refine his game. As a SJU fan I would like him to stay 4 years. The NBA looks at how a kid's game translates to the NBA not their college stats. Walter Berry was the best college player I ever saw. His game did not translate that well to the NBA. Bootsy Thornton, Mo Hatten, Dwight Hardy were all better college players than Kevin Williams or Ced Jackson. Kevin Williams and Ced made the pros.

Poison

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2012, 10:22:18 AM »
I think it would be best for him to stay and refine his game. As a SJU fan I would like him to stay 4 years. The NBA looks at how a kid's game translates to the NBA not their college stats. Walter Berry was the best college player I ever saw. His game did not translate that well to the NBA. Bootsy Thornton, Mo Hatten, Dwight Hardy were all better college players than Kevin Williams or Ced Jackson. Kevin Williams and Ced made the pros.

You're right. It's a damn shame that the league didn't fold.

Foad

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2012, 10:28:49 AM »
He is in the top 10 in the big east in 3's made and hits them at a decent clip at .32% which also puts him in the top 10 I believe in 3pt%.  He certainly is a good 3-point shooter, if not yet consistent enough to crack the top 5 in the league.  To say the 3-pointer is a little out of his range is inaccurate, because statistically he's somewhere among the 6-10th best 3pt shooter in the league.

You're delusional. 32 percent is Avery Patterson territory. He's not even in the top 40 in the BE percentage wise.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/conferences/statistics/player/_/id/4/stat/3-points/big-east-conference

MCNPA

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2012, 10:33:36 AM »
He is in the top 10 in the big east in 3's made and hits them at a decent clip at .32% which also puts him in the top 10 I believe in 3pt%.  He certainly is a good 3-point shooter, if not yet consistent enough to crack the top 5 in the league.  To say the 3-pointer is a little out of his range is inaccurate, because statistically he's somewhere among the 6-10th best 3pt shooter in the league.

You're delusional. 32 percent is Avery Patterson territory. He's not even in the top 40 in the BE percentage wise.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/conferences/statistics/player/_/id/4/stat/3-points/big-east-conference

Not delusional, just a mistake i guess.  I pulled the numbers from bigeast.org.  I guess they are wrong?  Maybe just league play....
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 10:34:19 AM by MCNPA »

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2012, 10:35:49 AM »
You're delusional. 32 percent is Avery Patterson territory. He's not even in the top 40 in the BE percentage wise.

Fun
Thanks for doing the dirty work. When your love of stats backs up my astute observations we could be an unstoppable tag team. If we teamed up more often we could own these boards! lol

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2012, 10:42:26 AM »
I like Phil Greene. He played pretty poorly yesterday but he's really good. I think he'd be better in limited minutes rather than extended.
Follow Johnny Jungle on Twitter at @Johnny_Jungle

MCNPA

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2012, 10:43:51 AM »
You're delusional. 32 percent is Avery Patterson territory. He's not even in the top 40 in the BE percentage wise.

Fun
Thanks for doing the dirty work. When your love of stats backs up my astute observations we could be an unstoppable tag team. If we teamed up more often we could own these boards! lol

This is the one I took from bigeast.org...
No idea what the story is with the rankings difference.. 



3-POINT FG PCT   Cl   GP   3FG   3FGA   Pct
1.   NAPIER, Shabazz-UCONN   SO   13   27   64    .422
2.   LAMB, Jeremy-UCONN   SO   13   32   77    .416
3.   KILPATRICK, Sean-CIN   SO   14   40   97    .412
4.   KELLY, Jeremiah-DPU.      SR   13   28   75    .373
5.   GIBBS, Ashton-PITT           SR   15   39   109    .358
6.   BRYANT, Darryl-WVU           SR   14   33   97    .340
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 10:46:55 AM by MCNPA »

sju89tr

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 10:54:08 AM »
Now before I begin let me state that I understand that we only have 6 and a half players. I also understand that we are young and very small. Furthermore I fully understand we have the worst shooting team in the nation. With all that being said our offense is embarrassing. Now I know coach Lavin has to sign off on everything, but who exactly nominated Dunlap as some kind of genius? Norm Roberts offense was better than this! Now I understand the concept of limiting the opponents attempts in order for the team to try not to lose by 30. But the idea of running down the shot clock is to have movement and try and at least get off a good shot. Princeton used to run the clock down than get back door layups or threes off penetration. Even Norm's offense was designed to have his two"best players" Mase and Geno have the ball as the clock wound down. Under Dunlap whoever has the ball with 2 seconds left is shooting a really bad shot. We have to lead the nation in shot clock violations. So in short if my life depended on it I would have more faith in Geno or Mase firing away from three than have Stith trying to shoot over anyone taller than Peter Dinklage. I think instead of worrying about Lavin's health becoming a problem for recruiting, we should be more worried about our offense. If any kid watches us play they would certainly choose anyone else. In fact I am starting to get afraid we might lose the people we have. It is no coincidence that we played better in the 2nd half of the last two games when we scrapped the shot clock violation offense. I mean it is really basic. We have enough trouble scoring w/o letting the defense rest until there is 5 seconds left on the shot clock.

Do you honestly believe that we want to run this offense? If we had kids to substitute (even Geno types), we would be running for 40 minutes. Geez! 

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 10:56:54 AM »
There is a wide gap between running and the shot clock violation offense we are currently witnessing.

sju89tr

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Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 11:00:41 AM »
There is a wide gap between running and the shot clock violation offense we are currently witnessing.

I don't believe for a second that we wouldn't be pushing the ball up the floor and using 20 - 25 seconds on clock rather than wait until 5 seconds are left to shoot if we didn't want to slow the game down to avoid fatigue.

Re: Norm's offense
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 11:02:12 AM »
Again, I understand why we are doing it. I just don't happen to agree with it.