Justin Burrell

When you guys compare Norm to Lavin, it's only fair to point out they weren't exactly given the same amount of resources.  Norm may never have gotten Hardy, Burrell, or JB2 to play they way they did as seniors... but he wasn't surrounded by the same level of help either.   

Part of the reason Lavin can develop guys is because he was promised a budget for assistant coaches that was equal to or better than what the top programs in the conference pay their assistants. 

I'm not defending Norm, but he couldn't assemble a "dream team" like Lavin did when he was hired.   

Bobre, set up a different thread for your unabashed love for Evans.  You are a joke.

Polee was getting better. 

That´s not true.

http://philly.stats.com/cbk/players.asp?id=97695

Quote from: MCNPA on May 01, 2012, 11:20:29 AM

Polee was getting better. 

That´s not true.

http://philly.stats.com/cbk/players.asp?id=97695

People are remembering the NCAA game which was his best and he definitely looked different.  But statistically you are right.

Quote from: MCNPA on May 01, 2012, 11:20:29 AM

Norm did nothing to make these players better.  Norm couldn't figure out that Dwight Hardy was starting material.  As a senior he was a Wooden award finalist. I didn't see anybody get much better under Norm.

You cannot seriously be arguing that TGAPL turned Hardy into a good basketball player between the spring when he was hired and the fall when he coached his first game. You simply cannot be making that argument. He made a personnel decision. He said here Dwight, have the ball. That's what turned him into a Wooden award winner.

You didn't see Paris Horne get better under Norm? Kennedy? Gene Lawrence? Evans? No one? What I saw was some players stay the same, some get better and some get worse. It's the same thing I've been seeing in college BB for 30 years. Those are the only three results. None of them happen in 3 months and none of them happen for one reason. It's just as likely that Hardy wouldn't have had the year he had as a senior if Norm had thrown him to the dogs as a junior as it isn't. Prove it not. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

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  Last two seasons I've seen majority of players, both Norm's and Lavin's get better.  I don't understand how you don't see it?  I'm not crediting Lavin alone.  Dunlap, Hines and others have a LOT to do with it.

[interior monologue]
For GOD SAKE can some one write one stupid post without CAPITALIZING a word for emphasis. FOR GOD SAKE. One SINGLE post. One single SOLITARY POST where the author doesn't feel the need to EMPHASIZE some stupid RANDOM word. If we were chatting, as ONE does, would you randomly SCREAM a word in the middle of a SENTENCE? I had a stack of PANCAKES for breakfast. I'm wearing a RED shirt. I'm typing in CAPITAL letters. Look, EXCLAMATION marks!!!!!  Winkie, winkie, WINKIE!!!!!! God I LOVE Lavin. I want to HAVE HIS BABIES. He's infallible like the POPE. Everything good that happens in the world is due to his beneficence. Yes, and no doubt Hines and all the other college of cardinals others had a LOT to do with it. Archbishop Dunlap OBVIOUSLY. But Tony CHILES? Doubt it. I don't like his BODY language. That other guy from RICE or wherever? Maybe, but I wouldn't trust him in the sacristy with the ball boys. Better safe than sorry. But NOT Norm. NO WAY!!!!!

Thanks I feel BETTER now. 
[/interior monologue]

Yes, I see it: most players get better as they get older. That is in fact the theory behind the university. Math majors multiply better as seniors than they did as freshmen. History majors know more dates. Artists draw prettier pictures. Some of TGAPL's players get better. Some of Norm's players got better. Some of Jarvis's players got better, some got worse, some stayed the same. In general they mature mentally, they work out, they practice. That's the point. Yes, Norm was a lousy coach. Also, the ocean is damp. His players failed to thrive because of his ineptitude. Yes. Bringing in someone who was not completely incompetent certainly advanced the prospects of the players. That's obvious. OTOH blaming Cedric Jackson's atrocious freshmen year on Norm is absurd. Crediting Quincy Roberts year at Grambling to the lack of Norm is similarly nonsense.

I simply don't agree.  Under Norm, kids didn't know their roles and where to be on the court.  It was a free-for all.  Overall the level of basketball played both individually and as a team was entirely better under Lavin and his staff. I credit guys like Lavin, Dunlap etc.  Btw, I'm not blaming Ced's freshman year on Norm.  I do believe that he would have progressed much further in Lavin's system under a coaching staff who could actually give the players some sort of direction and instruction.  Norm's big strategy was to just "play harder", whatever that means.

Certainly much if it is a function of the players individual talents.  I still believe though, that those talents were much better utilized and developed under the current staff.  Norm didn't make Hardy a Wooden candidate.  He had talent.  Norm just couldn't figure out how to utilize him.  Same goes for Brownlee. He couldn't get past point A.  Lavin at minimum figured out how to properly utilize these kids which seems like a trivial step, but an important one.

I simply don't agree.  Under Norm, kids didn't know their roles and where to be on the court.  It was a free-for all.  Overall the level of basketball played both individually and as a team was entirely better under Lavin and his staff. I credit guys like Lavin, Dunlap etc. 

You say you don't agree and then you go on to repeat exactly the points I made. You fail to give one example of a player improving dramatically under the TGAPL. That's because you can't. From one year to the next the good players were good and the lousy players still stank. They improved at the margins in the same way that most players improve from year to year. If TGAPL had turned Malik Boothe or Sean Evans into a Wooden Award winner you'd have a point. Instead he turned Dele Coker into Sean Muto. He turned Dwight Polee into Omari Lawrence. So instead you talk about how the players are utilized and how they knew their roles and the system and the level of basketball. And you're correct. I know that you're correct because that's exactly what I said originally. They were the same players with a better coach and a better staff with a better plan and a better system. Hence they had better results.

Btw, I'm not blaming Ced's freshman year on Norm.

You absolutely blamed Norm for Jackson's freshman year, and everyone elses: Look how much better guys like Larry wright, CJ, Edmondson, Quincy Roberts did when they left to play for other staffs. Just as you gave TGAPL full credit for Burrell's amazing accomplishment of playing professionally in Kzcryushbakghylistan or whatever: "Burrell would [not] be playing for money if it weren't for Lavin." It's not only wrong, it's preposterous.

I do believe that he would have progressed much further in Lavin's system under a coaching staff who could actually give the players some sort of direction and instruction.

Yes, Jackson made the NBA through mere hard work and coached by a mortal like Gary Waters. Imagine where he'd be if TGAPL had laid hands on him. He'd probably be an all star, in heaven.

“@LIlightning: Former Lightning player Justin Burrell (@JbDeuce4) won the MVP in Japanese league for 2011-201. Congrats to him. #NYLightning”

Wat to go man!

Quote from: MCNPA on May 01, 2012, 05:16:22 PM

I simply don't agree.  Under Norm, kids didn't know their roles and where to be on the court.  It was a free-for all.  Overall the level of basketball played both individually and as a team was entirely better under Lavin and his staff. I credit guys like Lavin, Dunlap etc. 

You say you don't agree and then you go on to repeat exactly the points I made. You fail to give one example of a player improving dramatically under the TGAPL. That's because you can't. From one year to the next the good players were good and the lousy players still stank. They improved at the margins in the same way that most players improve from year to year. If TGAPL had turned Malik Boothe or Sean Evans into a Wooden Award winner you'd have a point. Instead he turned Dele Coker into Sean Muto. He turned Dwight Polee into Omari Lawrence. So instead you talk about how the players are utilized and how they knew their roles and the system and the level of basketball. And you're correct. I know that you're correct because that's exactly what I said originally. They were the same players with a better coach and a better staff with a better plan and a better system. Hence they had better results.

Quote

Btw, I'm not blaming Ced's freshman year on Norm.

You absolutely blamed Norm for Jackson's freshman year, and everyone elses: Look how much better guys like Larry wright, CJ, Edmondson, Quincy Roberts did when they left to play for other staffs. Just as you gave TGAPL full credit for Burrell's amazing accomplishment of playing professionally in Kzcryushbakghylistan or whatever: "Burrell would [not] be playing for money if it weren't for Lavin." It's not only wrong, it's preposterous.

Quote

I do believe that he would have progressed much further in Lavin's system under a coaching staff who could actually give the players some sort of direction and instruction.

Yes, Jackson made the NBA through mere hard work and coached by a mortal like Gary Waters. Imagine where he'd be if TGAPL had laid hands on him. He'd probably be an all star, in heaven.

Where we differ is that you seem to believe that the players didn't improve their skills under the current staff as compared to Norm and his staff, and i do.  I believe that many of the kids had significant improvement in their games because if superior skills development, not just because they were a year older.  They were upperclassmen as juniors for Norm and they stunk.  One year later and most of the team improved greatly both individually and as a team.  No mistake, this staff made a big difference.  Where we also differ is that I don't pay mental masturbation games in getting to a point. 

Congrats to Justin on winning MVP!

Where we differ is that you seem to believe that the players didn't improve their skills under the current staff as compared to Norm and his staff, and i do.  I believe that many of the kids had significant improvement in their games because if superior skills development, not just because they were a year older.

In the first place, I don't need you to tell me what I "seem to believe." I know exactly what I think and express my thoughts more clearly and concisely than you could on your best day. I don't need you to mangle my prose or misstate my position. In the second, I don't care what you believe: I care what you can demonstrate. You can believe, for example, that TGAPL has magic pixie dust that when sprinkled in the players shorts makes them run faster and jump higher. I'm not interested in disabusing you of your many delusions. However, when you state your beliefs as fact, that's a different story. Then I want proof. Because if you allege a fact and prove it, then you've created truth, from which I might learn something. But all you've proved here is an inability to defend your position. You've abandoned the twaddle about honed fundamentals and improved footwork and how the great Larry Wright blossomed at Oakland and are just repeating your opinion over and over. Fine. I don't care about your opinion.

They were upperclassmen as juniors for Norm and they stunk.

No they didn't stink. They didn't win. It's not the same thing. The fact is they were a dozen players, nearly all of whom are playing professional basketball a year out of college. The fact is that as a group they underachieved under Norm - they didn't win as juniors - and they underachieved under TGAPL - as seniors they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament. 

One year later and most of the team improved greatly both individually and as a team.  No mistake, this staff made a big difference.

The staff made a big difference? That's your epiphany? No intercoursing kidding.

Where we also differ is that I don't pay mental masturbation games in getting to a point.

No. Where we differ is that you're oblivious to nuance. A couple of years ago you were vehement in your belief that only talent mattered, that the reason Norm was a failure was that he was not recruiting properly. Now you're equally vehement in your belief that the opposite is true, that it's all the magical staff. The fact is it's not either or: it's both and neither.   

How long did Justin sign for? Japan is a beautiful country, but if he can parlay this into significantly more money in Europe, I guess he'd have to go for it.

Quote from: MCNPA on May 02, 2012, 08:37:48 AM

Where we differ is that you seem to believe that the players didn't improve their skills under the current staff as compared to Norm and his staff, and i do.  I believe that many of the kids had significant improvement in their games because if superior skills development, not just because they were a year older.

In the first place, I don't need you to tell me what I "seem to believe." I know exactly what I think and express my thoughts more clearly and concisely than you could on your best day. I don't need you to mangle my prose or misstate my position. In the second, I don't care what you believe: I care what you can demonstrate. You can believe, for example, that TGAPL has magic pixie dust that when sprinkled in the players shorts makes them run faster and jump higher. I'm not interested in disabusing you of your many delusions. However, when you state your beliefs as fact, that's a different story. Then I want proof. Because if you allege a fact and prove it, then you've created truth, from which I might learn something. But all you've proved here is an inability to defend your position. You've abandoned the twaddle about honed fundamentals and improved footwork and how the great Larry Wright blossomed at Oakland and are just repeating your opinion over and over. Fine. I don't care about your opinion.

Quote

They were upperclassmen as juniors for Norm and they stunk.

No they didn't stink. They didn't win. It's not the same thing. The fact is they were a dozen players, nearly all of whom are playing professional basketball a year out of college. The fact is that as a group they underachieved under Norm - they didn't win as juniors - and they underachieved under TGAPL - as seniors they lost in the first round of the NCAA tournament. 

Quote

One year later and most of the team improved greatly both individually and as a team.  No mistake, this staff made a big difference.

The staff made a big difference? That's your epiphany? No intercoursing kidding.

Quote

Where we also differ is that I don't pay mental masturbation games in getting to a point.

No. Where we differ is that you're oblivious to nuance. A couple of years ago you were vehement in your belief that only talent mattered, that the reason Norm was a failure was that he was not recruiting properly. Now you're equally vehement in your belief that the opposite is true, that it's all the magical staff. The fact is it's not either or: it's both and neither.

Fun, we've been having this same discussion in one form or another for years.  I've come to the conclusion that you are just so enamored with your own words and trying to dissect mine that you clearly are missing the very basic premise which really hasn't changed.  Let me break it down for you, although I'll probably have to endure at least 3 more of your whipped cream laced posts.

Talent is the most important part of the equation.  Superior coaching and skills work is able to extract the most out of that innate talent.  Superior strategy and game planning is done preparing for games and is what wins games.  Game coaching itself is more of a function of clock and roster management at game time and a collectively good staff should be able to make it through a 40 minute game without too many screw ups.

As I've said in prior forays with you, I certainly underestimated some of the talent that Norm brought in.  Norm's poor coaching and poor player development was able to mask much of that talent.  A good staff was able to optimize and groom that talent to the point of relative success on the court and maybe even help some of these kids to get to the point of playing pro ball. 

you are just so enamored with your own words

Perhaps you don't see the irony of commenting in what has to be your ten or twenty thousandth post on the egoism you find in my 500th. By the numbers you love the sound of your own voice by about a factor of about 10. But then I have rather a keen sense of it and and others, well, irony is as they say wasted on the stupid. Besides which you've blind pigged yourself a truffle here because it is in fact true that I'm enamoured with words. It's the value I place on them that leads me to be circumspect in their use. It's why I chose them carefully and mostly only in discussions of matters about which I've reached some degree of understanding. Whereas you, well, in one thread you're on about the mechanics of 2015 recruit's jump shot and in another the health of the great and powerful prostate and in another whether Mike Dunlap's wife would be happy living in Boise and in another whether Darrick Wood is going to pass his Friday morning social studies pop quiz. It must be exhausting pretending to know so much about so little and to have it all pouring out in a never ending torrent. You are a veritable Mount Vesuvius of twaddle.

Let me break it down for you

Well yes you could break it down for me, that's one option and its kind of you to offer. But since my only interest in this thread at all was to correct your calumny about Justin Burrell, here's another. How about I <hose> your post instead, because (a) basketball isn't that hard and despite (a) you (b) don't know that much about it. So we'll leave for another day such epiphanies as "talent is ... important" and "coaching ... works to extract talent" and this gem, "game planning is done preparing for games" - which tru dat as the kids say, it'd certainly be less effective planning on the bus ride home. Instead,

your whipped cream laced posts.

Let us join together in a tune:

Herb Alpert Whipped Cream

Every company is entitled to its Cyrano.   More verse.  More verse.

Quote from: MCNPA on May 03, 2012, 01:31:03 AM

you are just so enamored with your own words

Perhaps you don't see the irony of commenting in what has to be your ten or twenty thousandth post on the egoism you find in my 500th. By the numbers you love the sound of your own voice by about a factor of about 10. But then I have rather a keen sense of it and and others, well, irony is as they say wasted on the stupid. Besides which you've blind pigged yourself a truffle here because it is in fact true that I'm enamoured with words. It's the value I place on them that leads me to be circumspect in their use. It's why I chose them carefully and mostly only in discussions of matters about which I've reached some degree of understanding. Whereas you, well, in one thread you're on about the mechanics of 2015 recruit's jump shot and in another the health of the great and powerful prostate and in another whether Mike Dunlap's wife would be happy living in Boise and in another whether Darrick Wood is going to pass his Friday morning social studies pop quiz. It must be exhausting pretending to know so much about so little and to have it all pouring out in a never ending torrent. You are a veritable Mount Vesuvius of twaddle.

Quote

Let me break it down for you

Well yes you could break it down for me, that's one option and its kind of you to offer. But since my only interest in this thread at all was to correct your calumny about Justin Burrell, here's another. How about I <hose> your post instead, because (a) basketball isn't that hard and despite (a) you (b) don't know that much about it. So we'll leave for another day such epiphanies as "talent is ... important" and "coaching ... works to extract talent" and this gem, "game planning is done preparing for games" - which tru dat as the kids say, it'd certainly be less effective planning on the bus ride home. Instead,

Quote

your whipped cream laced posts.

Let us join together in a tune:

Herb Alpert Whipped Cream

I'm not enamored of mine own words like you are.  I just post on these boards because I enjoy the game.  I don't post so I can laud my prose.  I could give a shit about constructing the perfect post.  I spend a few seconds at a time throwing out words much like I would text message.  I spend most of my day and night saving lives and dealing with life and death issues.  These boards are a nice reprieve for me except when I have to encounter guys like you who are simply on these boards to goad.  A new breed of skell, the internet bully.  Like I have said before, there's always an open invitation to meet up before or after a game with the rest of the great bunch of friends I've made over the years enjoying this great school and grewt sport.  Love to see if your pomp, prose and circumstance hold up as well in person without a laptop. 

You see, your insecurity in your own level of understanding of these many matters is pretty obvious to me between the amount of time you spend worshiping my posts and excessively gaudy prose you feel you need to spit out to appear smarter than you are.  Window dressing.  The puppy in the window is still a mutt no matter how many bows you put on him.

And btw, if you knew me like many of these other guys do, you'd know that there is no ego behind these posts nor the numbers and time I spend on these boards.  I'm here simply for the love of the game, the friendships I've made and to discuss the many topics I thoroughly enjoy.  Any of these guys that know me can vouch for that.  I don't hide behind my computer, nor verbal bullshit.  I don't have your insecurities.

Well thank God after all the flagellation a conclusion has been reached that there was talent on the team that Lavin inherited.  Early on when he was playing the munchkin Maliks and allowing non-entitities like the kid from St Mary's to single handedly beat us with seven un guarded threes the fact was pretty well hidden.  Then when desperation kicked in Lavin inadvertantly discovered that if he started Hardy at the point alongside Horne, one of our best, he suddenly had a viable backcourt.  Then, when he added in the best of the rest we amazingly became competitive. It took him until the Duke game to realize that Evans had value but after that epiphany it was clear sailing until DJ's injury. In those few weeks despite some fairly lousy coaching performances ala the Fordham game, Lavin did manage to demonstrate more creative flexibility than Norm had in his entire life hence the end result.  Lavin gets a generous push for last year's debacle but I'm not yet convinced that we have any corner on coaching genious.  As the old bromide goes this is Lavin's first year with "his players" and we'll see what happens.  Hopefully this group will wind up earning as much in the long run as Norm's.     

The more and more I read these sites the more and more I despise pretty much half of our our fan base.

The more and more I read these sites the more and more I despise pretty much half of our our fan base.

Name names.

Quote from: Foad on May 03, 2012, 08:40:59 AM

Quote from: MCNPA on May 03, 2012, 01:31:03 AM

you are just so enamored with your own words

Perhaps you don't see the irony of commenting in what has to be your ten or twenty thousandth post on the egoism you find in my 500th. By the numbers you love the sound of your own voice by about a factor of about 10. But then I have rather a keen sense of it and and others, well, irony is as they say wasted on the stupid. Besides which you've blind pigged yourself a truffle here because it is in fact true that I'm enamoured with words. It's the value I place on them that leads me to be circumspect in their use. It's why I chose them carefully and mostly only in discussions of matters about which I've reached some degree of understanding. Whereas you, well, in one thread you're on about the mechanics of 2015 recruit's jump shot and in another the health of the great and powerful prostate and in another whether Mike Dunlap's wife would be happy living in Boise and in another whether Darrick Wood is going to pass his Friday morning social studies pop quiz. It must be exhausting pretending to know so much about so little and to have it all pouring out in a never ending torrent. You are a veritable Mount Vesuvius of twaddle.

Quote

Let me break it down for you

Well yes you could break it down for me, that's one option and its kind of you to offer. But since my only interest in this thread at all was to correct your calumny about Justin Burrell, here's another. How about I <hose> your post instead, because (a) basketball isn't that hard and despite (a) you (b) don't know that much about it. So we'll leave for another day such epiphanies as "talent is ... important" and "coaching ... works to extract talent" and this gem, "game planning is done preparing for games" - which tru dat as the kids say, it'd certainly be less effective planning on the bus ride home. Instead,

Quote

your whipped cream laced posts.

Let us join together in a tune:

Herb Alpert Whipped Cream

I'm not enamored of mine own words like you are.  I just post on these boards because I enjoy the game.  I don't post so I can laud my prose.  I could give a shit about constructing the perfect post.  I spend a few seconds at a time throwing out words much like I would text message.  I spend most of my day and night saving lives and dealing with life and death issues.  These boards are a nice reprieve for me except when I have to encounter guys like you who are simply on these boards to goad.  A new breed of skell, the internet bully.  Like I have said before, there's always an open invitation to meet up before or after a game with the rest of the great bunch of friends I've made over the years enjoying this great school and grewt sport.  Love to see if your pomp, prose and circumstance hold up as well in person without a laptop. 

You see, your insecurity in your own level of understanding of these many matters is pretty obvious to me between the amount of time you spend worshiping my posts and excessively gaudy prose you feel you need to spit out to appear smarter than you are.  Window dressing.  The puppy in the window is still a mutt no matter how many bows you put on him.

And btw, if you knew me like many of these other guys do, you'd know that there is no ego behind these posts nor the numbers and time I spend on these boards.  I'm here simply for the love of the game, the friendships I've made and to discuss the many topics I thoroughly enjoy.  Any of these guys that know me can vouch for that.  I don't hide behind my computer, nor verbal bullshit.  I don't have your insecurities.

I think we need to rethink seating FOAD and MCN at the same table at the First Annual Johnny Jungle Ball to be held at Chateau Krupinski in September.

This thread was about Justin Burrell and his accomplishments after escaping the prison that was Norm Roberts' coaching.
Let's be happy for him. He struggled for years under that douchebag, and he's finally playing like we all knew could.

Go get em JB. Get the NBA next year.