So let's recap

Great job by Lavin obviously but just to play Devil's advocate team is short at the point especially until Branch is eligible. Would have liked to see another point just in case Greene struggles.

So what do you think, is it time for a huge recap article in the NY papers to tell the new SJU story. They can basically use your recap as the starting point. No research involved. Let's go media. Blow this up to the big story it is.

Then do it again after Moe gets drafted.

It won't be a story until the season starts. We get limited coverage in season..do you think that one of the papers will sum up our recruiting efforts off season?

Great job by Lavin obviously but just to play Devil's advocate team is short at the point especially until Branch is eligible. Would have liked to see another point just in case Greene struggles.

Greene has shown last season that he won't struggle at the point.  He is more than serviceable.  D'Lo càn also handle someof those duties and has.  We'll be fine until Branch comes which will be when the Big East conference slate starts.

The biggest problem with a point guard is usually turnovers.  Greene did not have that many turnovers.  He was very conservative and that was a combination of our lack of depth, options and him learning a new position.  He can hold the fort for the 10 or so games.

Great job by Lavin obviously but just to play Devil's advocate team is short at the point especially until Branch is eligible. Would have liked to see another point just in case Greene struggles.

Thankfully, we have a glass half empty post--the praising SJU/Lavin/JJ was starting to wear thin.    I think WASJU raises a fair point.  We are rolling the dice a little bit with Greene for the first half of the season (injury could strike, Greene might not be much better from last year) and Branch might not be the savior we all expect him to be come December, but given (i) it's the weaker part of our schedule without Branch, (ii) Greene has one very full year of playing time under his belt, (iii) Branch was a top 50 ranked pg in 2011, and (iv) the glaring weaknesses of our front court depth, I'm more than ok with Lavin's decision to go deep with the front court recruits we landed at the expense of shorting our pg depth. 

The biggest problem with a point guard is usually turnovers.  Greene did not have that many turnovers.  He was very conservative and that was a combination of our lack of depth, options and him learning a new position.  He can hold the fort for the 10 or so games.

I don't think Greene is giving up the PG position that easily, especially to a guy who hasn't played in a meaninful game in over a year.

So many ways to slice, dice and interpret this.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/year/2012/seasontype/2/group/4

Quote from: derk on June 12, 2012, 09:59:15 AM

So what do you think, is it time for a huge recap article in the NY papers to tell the new SJU story. They can basically use your recap as the starting point. No research involved. Let's go media. Blow this up to the big story it is.

Then do it again after Moe gets drafted.

It won't be a story until the season starts. We get limited coverage in season..do you think that one of the papers will sum up our recruiting efforts off season?

In a word. Yes. I see off season stories about Cuse, L'Ville. We have to start thinking of ourselves as worthy of the pub. Some of those knuckleheads actually read the site. So if you're reading this Hoops, get busy. The story is already written by Fordham. Just copy and paste the dam thing. At the very least there should be a combo story when Moe ges drafted.

Greene played better towards the end ( he couldn't have played worse) but he is not a point. Being able to dribble up the court w/o having the ball stolen is not a point guard. You have to be able to create for others hound the ball on D and occasionally hit a jumper. Greene struggled in all those areas last season. We are going to asking a lot out of an unproven kid who will basically have sat out a whole year in Branch

Quote from: we are sju on June 12, 2012, 10:14:17 AM

Great job by Lavin obviously but just to play Devil's advocate team is short at the point especially until Branch is eligible. Would have liked to see another point just in case Greene struggles.

Thankfully, we have a glass half empty post--the praising SJU/Lavin/JJ was starting to wear thin.    I think WASJU raises a fair point.  We are rolling the dice a little bit with Greene for the first half of the season (injury could strike, Greene might not be much better from last year) and Branch might not be the savior we all expect him to be come December, but given (i) it's the weaker part of our schedule without Branch, (ii) Greene has one very full year of playing time under his belt, (iii) Branch was a top 50 ranked pg in 2011, and (iv) the glaring weaknesses of our front court depth, I'm more than ok with Lavin's decision to go deep with the front court recruits we landed at the expense of shorting our pg depth.

Let's not forget that D'Lo brought the ball up and handled the ball last year also. And that his position if he wants to make it in the league will probably be at PG. If that happens, in a fill in situation, we have Felix for the SG and versatility with our wings. We'll survive.

Greene played better towards the end ( he couldn't have played worse) but he is not a point. Being able to dribble up the court w/o having the ball stolen is not a point guard. You have to be able to create for others hound the ball on D and occasionally hit a jumper. Greene struggled in all those areas last season. We are going to asking a lot out of an unproven kid who will basically have sat out a whole year in Branch

Wow.  So you don't like the guy who filled in admirably at PG.  You think the one who sat out is rusty?  Do you want another PG to come from thin air, but then were back to square one with an unproven PG.

Should we just fast forward to June 2013 now then?

Let's have some fun...

Beginning late last summer SJU thought they were staring at a big time young team and an incoming stud recruit in Rico Gathers, another in Darrick Wood and possibly the favorite for Kyle Anderson.

Then bad news seem to come out everyday.  First Pelle, Sampson and Garrett fail to qualify.  Sampson and Pelle later de-commit.  Gathers de-commits.  Wood de-commits.  Anderson chooses UCLA.

Lavin has cancer.  Nuri Lindsey quits team.  Stith leaves team.  Team struggles with youth and  lack of depth and tough schedule.  The fan base is restless.  Some are wondering if Lavin can put a good class together.  As of early March SJU has no verbals for 2012 and 1 transfer, Jamal Branch.

Fast forward 4 months.  Lavin is 100% healthy and showing his recruiting oats.  Despite heavy interest from the likes of Kansas he gets Sampson back in the fold.  Lands a real late bloomer in Balamou.  Adds Max Hooper as a transfer.  Lands JUCO #3 Orlando Sanchez and his teammate Marco.  Then re-ups Wood, may switch to 2013 but nevertheless back on board.  And now Obepka.

Really a stunning turnaround and it shows Lavin is in a different class as a recruiter then most coaches.  I think back to Norm's class in '08.  He failed to land his top targets in the early signing period--Mookie and Kevin Jones along with Syl.  He ends up with Quincy Roberts, Phil Wait and Ty Edmondson. 

Just think about that for second in terms of difference in recruiting.

don't forget polee leaving...the big east breakup...barely a day went by without something negative.

how do you spell R-E-L-I-E-F...

Wow.  So you don't like the guy who filled in admirably at PG.  You think the one who sat out is rusty?  Do you want another PG to come from thin air, but then were back to square one with an unproven PG.

Should we just fast forward to June 2013 now then?



No, it will be fun to watch the kids play as this will basically be the team we thought we were getting last year. I am just saying that Greene is not  a point and I would have liked a juco point as protection becuase Branch hasn't played in a year and Greene is not a point guard.

Listen I am happy with the team and have been since the minute Norm was fired. But this is a basketball team and I am discussing basketball points. I really have no desire to put on a cheerleading outfit as some of you seem ready to do. Team is going in the right direction but at the moment I do not believe we are an NCAA tourney team or anything. It is OK to discuss flaws w/o having to defend yourself from the GAPL disciples. Lavin is the best possible realistic person we could have coaching this team. I believe that 100%. That does not mean we are going to start banging out final four appearances. The program was in shambles for most of the decade and still has work to do just to get back to the 20 win 2nd round knockout Louie "glory days". We are not there yet. Sorry!

No, it will be fun to watch the kids play as this will basically be the team we thought we were getting last year. I am just saying that Greene is not  a point and I would have liked a juco point as protection becuase Branch hasn't played in a year and Greene is not a point guard.

Listen I am happy with the team and have been since the minute Norm was fired. But this is a basketball team and I am discussing basketball points. I really have no desire to put on a cheerleading outfit as some of you seem ready to do. Team is going in the right direction but at the moment I do not believe we are an NCAA tourney team or anything. It is OK to discuss flaws w/o having to defend yourself from the GAPL disciples. Lavin is the best possible realistic person we could have coaching this team. I believe that 100%. That does not mean we are going to start banging out final four appearances. The program was in shambles for most of the decade and still has work to do just to get back to the 20 win 2nd round knockout Louie "glory days". We are not there yet. Sorry!

I'm all for discussing basketball points.  I did provide some stats and then you responded saying anyone can dribble the ball up the court.  Thats a laughable statement.  Would you rather Greene went balls to the wall trying to play a new position and also with minimal people to pass to?

This crap with GAPL and disciples and defending oneself is getting old.  If only you can defend your points but when I respond I'm a cheerleader than its hypocritical.  I'd appreciate if you stop calling me a cheerleader/disciple or whatever other backhanded thing you can think of.

The best possible coach as you described feels that Phil Greene can fit the bill as a backup to Branch when Branch is eligible.  Bringing in another PG would have been tough to do when they would have to fight a Top 50 PG who already have a year of practice with the team and a freshman Top 150 combo who spent the year playing 30 mpg at PG.  I don't think your suggestions or points or feelings are outlandish.  I just like to point out the holes.

I'm all for discussing basketball points.  I did provide some stats and then you responded saying anyone can dribble the ball up the court.  Thats a laughable statement.  Would you rather Greene went balls to the wall trying to play a new position and also with minimal people to pass to?

This crap with GAPL and disciples and defending oneself is getting old.  If only you can defend your points but when I respond I'm a cheerleader than its hypocritical.  I'd appreciate if you stop calling me a cheerleader/disciple or whatever other backhanded thing you can think of.

The best possible coach as you described feels that Phil Greene can fit the bill as a backup to Branch when Branch is eligible.  Bringing in another PG would have been tough to do when they would have to fight a Top 50 PG who already have a year of practice with the team and a freshman Top 150 combo who spent the year playing 30 mpg at PG.  I don't think your suggestions or points or feelings are outlandish.  I just like to point out the holes.

Moose
Being able to bring the ball up the court is very important but again it does not make you a point guard unless you are running a triangle offense or have Lebron James or Scottie Pippen as a wing player to run the offense. I believe the offense will once again struggle early and that will put a lot of pressure on Branch once he comes back. Bringing in a kid that could run the offense as insurance for Greene would have been nice.

I'm all for discussing basketball points.  I did provide some stats and then you responded saying anyone can dribble the ball up the court.  Thats a laughable statement.  Would you rather Greene went balls to the wall trying to play a new position and also with minimal people to pass to?

This crap with GAPL and disciples and defending oneself is getting old.  If only you can defend your points but when I respond I'm a cheerleader than its hypocritical.  I'd appreciate if you stop calling me a cheerleader/disciple or whatever other backhanded thing you can think of.

The best possible coach as you described feels that Phil Greene can fit the bill as a backup to Branch when Branch is eligible.  Bringing in another PG would have been tough to do when they would have to fight a Top 50 PG who already have a year of practice with the team and a freshman Top 150 combo who spent the year playing 30 mpg at PG.  I don't think your suggestions or points or feelings are outlandish.  I just like to point out the holes.

Moose
Being able to bring the ball up the court is very important but again it does not make you a point guard unless you are running a triangle offense or have Lebron James or Scottie Pippen as a wing player to run the offense. I believe the offense will once again struggle early and that will put a lot of pressure on Branch once he comes back. Bringing in a kid that could run the offense as insurance for Greene would have been nice.

+1, moose your input in my eyes is always sound, valued and appreciated but I must agree that another point would have helped. I'm not sold on Greene yet and if DLO dosent score one night what happens? Another pg who can create and/or run half court offense with our athletic wings would have been ideal. Although sooner or later DLO must learn the position if he wants to go to the next level.

I'm all for discussing basketball points.  I did provide some stats and then you responded saying anyone can dribble the ball up the court.  Thats a laughable statement.  Would you rather Greene went balls to the wall trying to play a new position and also with minimal people to pass to?

This crap with GAPL and disciples and defending oneself is getting old.  If only you can defend your points but when I respond I'm a cheerleader than its hypocritical.  I'd appreciate if you stop calling me a cheerleader/disciple or whatever other backhanded thing you can think of.

The best possible coach as you described feels that Phil Greene can fit the bill as a backup to Branch when Branch is eligible.  Bringing in another PG would have been tough to do when they would have to fight a Top 50 PG who already have a year of practice with the team and a freshman Top 150 combo who spent the year playing 30 mpg at PG.  I don't think your suggestions or points or feelings are outlandish.  I just like to point out the holes.

Moose
Being able to bring the ball up the court is very important but again it does not make you a point guard unless you are running a triangle offense or have Lebron James or Scottie Pippen as a wing player to run the offense. I believe the offense will once again struggle early and that will put a lot of pressure on Branch once he comes back. Bringing in a kid that could run the offense as insurance for Greene would have been nice.

WASJU, nice post, it has it's merits.   I agree with you completely that the offense will continue to struggle.  Nothing we've done has been a huge upgrade in that area; aside from adding Branch, which is significantly offset by the loss of Moe.
But I think we're ok with a returning starter in Greene, and Branch becoming eligible in December.   No, I don't think Phil is a true pg - not in the sense of some of the elite pgs in college basketball.  But he can get the job done till December.   Hardy wasn't a true point either, but Lavin's system (when the guys run it properly) doesn't involve a lot of pg play.   The ball weaves around, the "bigs" move up to the high post, sometimes picking and popping, and that leaves room for guys to drive to the basket.   That's what Hardy, Horne, DJ did for us two years ago; and then it left Brownlee with open jumpers. 

I think Greene's pg skills looked worse than they really were last season because he was playing with all true freshmen.  If he had upper classmen who could knew how to move without the ball, I don't think he would have looked like that.   We asked a lot of him; as a freshmen pg to make other freshmen look good and get them the ball in easy scoring opportunities.     

He'll be better this season.
But the offense as a whole - that's still going to be scary.   Outside of Dlo I'm not sure there's anyone on this team who is a go to scorer or even a reliable foul shooter.   Presumably Marco can shoot too, but after that?     Let's hope we can create a lot of turnovers and transition baskets.

Quote from: we are sju on June 12, 2012, 12:51:44 PM

I'm all for discussing basketball points.  I did provide some stats and then you responded saying anyone can dribble the ball up the court.  Thats a laughable statement.  Would you rather Greene went balls to the wall trying to play a new position and also with minimal people to pass to?

This crap with GAPL and disciples and defending oneself is getting old.  If only you can defend your points but when I respond I'm a cheerleader than its hypocritical.  I'd appreciate if you stop calling me a cheerleader/disciple or whatever other backhanded thing you can think of.

The best possible coach as you described feels that Phil Greene can fit the bill as a backup to Branch when Branch is eligible.  Bringing in another PG would have been tough to do when they would have to fight a Top 50 PG who already have a year of practice with the team and a freshman Top 150 combo who spent the year playing 30 mpg at PG.  I don't think your suggestions or points or feelings are outlandish.  I just like to point out the holes.

Moose
Being able to bring the ball up the court is very important but again it does not make you a point guard unless you are running a triangle offense or have Lebron James or Scottie Pippen as a wing player to run the offense. I believe the offense will once again struggle early and that will put a lot of pressure on Branch once he comes back. Bringing in a kid that could run the offense as insurance for Greene would have been nice.

+1, moose your input in my eyes is always sound, valued and appreciated but I must agree that another point would have helped. I'm not sold on Greene yet and if DLO dosent score one night what happens? Another pg who can create and/or run half court offense with our athletic wings would have been ideal. Although sooner or later DLO must learn the position if he wants to go to the next level.

Logically you would assume Greene improves over the summer no?
Having more scoring options helps, no?  A shooter who can make the defense step out a bit.  Open passing/driving lanes.
Having more bodies down low will also focus attention elsewhere.

I said it so many times and will continue.  Our biggest problem by far was depth.  Thats it.  Depth cures a lot of ills.  It allow you to go to another option if someone is struggling, it allows people not to commit careless fouls, play with more energy (aka run a more traditional pg).

I know Chille you have yearned for a PG for awhile.  Not many PG's were going to be interested having to compete with a top 50 player and a guy who had 30 mpg as a frosh under his belt.

+1, moose your input in my eyes is always sound, valued and appreciated but I must agree that another point would have helped. I'm not sold on Greene yet and if DLO dosent score one night what happens? Another pg who can create and/or run half court offense with our athletic wings would have been ideal. Although sooner or later DLO must learn the position if he wants to go to the next level.

I do believe that DLO will emerge as the backup point in a Hatten / Hardy way. I can see him playing with four reserves on a second unit that is designed for him to score. I thought Greene at the point was a disaster actually.

Being able to bring the ball up the court is very important but again it does not make you a point guard unless you are running a triangle offense or have Lebron James or Scottie Pippen as a wing player to run the offense. I believe the offense will once again struggle early and that will put a lot of pressure on Branch once he comes back. Bringing in a kid that could run the offense as insurance for Greene would have been nice.

But TGAPL did bring in a PG, Branch, and has insurance for Branch in Greene, who I agree isn't a true point but proved himself serviceable last year. I don't see how he could have brought in a third - why would a JUCO come here to sit on the bench behind two underclassmen, at least a JUCO who doesn't suck. Five guards seems plenty to me, considering DH will be on the floor 30 MPG. Also, you should reconsider the cheerleading outfit thing. Winky.