Carmelo Anthony holding basketball camp at St. John's

 Tha Kid is to the Celtics what crgreen is to UCLA/Lavin.   

I take that as a compliment of the highest order simplyred, thank you!  Though I am no CRGreen, my Celtics knowledge only goes back to the 80s really since my knowledge of the 60s is not firsthand!  20+ years from now maybe I will truly achieve CRGreen status with respect to my Celtics!

I take that as a compliment of the highest order simplyred, thank you!  Though I am no CRGreen, my Celtics knowledge only goes back to the 80s really since my knowledge of the 60s is not firsthand!  20+ years from now maybe I will truly achieve CRGreen status with respect to my Celtics!

Only to the 80s?     Then you almost entirely missed one of the most underratted great players of the 70's (if a Hall of Famer can be underated!) - the "not Bill Russell"  Dave Cowens  (only TWO titles in his 12 years). 

Tho I imagine he was pretty well hated by New York fans, what he accomplished as a 6'9 230 lb center (yeah - in the way Kevin Love is 6'9!)  in an era of absolute giants like Chamberlains, Abdul-Jabbars, Moses Malones, and Artis Gilmores  was remarkable...His first 9 years in the league - 15, 15, 16, 16, 15, 16, 16, 14, 10 rebounds per game....8th greatest in league history at 13.6 for his career...

Quote from: nrmax88

Yeah, Paul Pierce was definitely really good at getting his points in the flow of the offense back in the day as the Celtics finished with 50 losses every season.

The Boston Celtics have lost 50+ games a whopping ONE time while Paul Pierce has been a Celtic, and that was in 2006-07 when Pierce missed 35 games due to injury, including the vast majority of their huge losing streak.  Suffice it to say, if Pierce was healthy all season, they wouldnt have lost 50.

Pierce made 4 playoffs pre-Big Three, including a conference finals.  For an example of the caliber of talent Pierce had around him, this was his team in 2005-06:

20 yr old Al Jefferson
21 yr old Kendrick Perkins
Delonte West
Tony Allen
Raef Lafrentz
Ryan Gomes
Brian Scalabrine
Wally Szczerbiak
Dan Dickau
Gerald Green
Paul Pierce

A couple of other guys 12-14 like Olowokandi.  Yeah. 

Unfortunately we can't do it, but I'd guarantee that if you traded Pierce for Carmelo the last two years, the Knicks would have been better, and Amare would be happy.

Ok, it was hyperbole. Paul Pierces rookie season was in 1998. The Celtics record up until KG and Allen came through.

1998- 19-31
1999- 35-47
2000- 36-46
2001- 49-33 ECF loss
2002- 44-38 ECSF loss
2003- 44-38 first round knock out
2004- 36-46
2005- 33-49
2006- 24-58

Ok, so he lost 50 games one time, absolutely right. Although in 8 full seasons, he lost 45 games a WHOPPING 5 times. He made 4 playoffs in 9 years in a weak eastern conference. My point isn't trying to say Pierce isn't great, even as a Celtic he is one of my favorite players, the point was that nobody can do anything by themselves in the NBA. You don't have to list how bad his team was during those years, because I know that. Not only do I know that, but that is my entire point.

Melo, on the other hand, came into the league in 03. Denvers records year by year, since then:

2003: 43-39
2004: 49-33
2005: 44-38
2006: 45-37
2007: 50-32
2008: 54-28
2009: 53-29

In Melo's 7 full years with Denver, he has a winning record every season, won 50 three times, and also made one ECF.

Unfortunately we can't do it, but I'd guarantee that if you traded Pierce for Carmelo the last two years, the Knicks would have been better, and Amare would be happy.

First of all, this is an absurd guarantee, you have absolutely no way of knowing that. Second of all, would Paul Pierce's mere presence on the court give Stat the motivation to not act like a complete vagina? Would Pierce's mojo make Stoudemire play defense or care about boxing out, or grabbing a board? Would he stop Stat from dribbling the ball straight into the chest of his defender? Would Pierce make Stoudemires back and knees less beat up? Was it Melo's fault Stat threw his hand through a glass window and cost himself half a series? "The Truth" surely would have prevented this, probably with some amazing teammatery, maybe sticking his own face in front of Amare's fist?

Honestly, I couldn't really care less about Amare's happiness, not when he barely even puts in an effort. If getting another good player on the team upset him that much, then he should have signed in Toronto or something where he could be a big dog on a crap team. Amare's happiness, really? I bet Melo would be happier if he didn't have to play with the softest power forward in the NBA. Don't you think he thought he was coming to play with the PHX Amare? The first year NY Amare? The funny thing is Stat never takes any blame, always blame Melo for not integrating Stat, which is laughable. One, Melo isn't the point guard, two, Stat has been here longer, integrate your damn self, 3 Stat never tries to get the ball, he never fights for position in the block, he just stands by the elbow, if he does get the ball, just chucks it, and then every once in a while tells the press how now it's different, he's going to be more aggressive getting position down low, and how he knows the importance of rebounding and defense, and will be making a big commitment to them. It never actually happens or anything, but Stat is the best at saying the cool things and sounding all serious and leadershippy, and then not actually following through with trying to better himself as a basketball player at all. The biggest difference between the Knicks and C's is not Melo and Troof, it's Amare and KG.

I' m not sure why, but I really enjoyed that last post by nrmax88.  It might be because of the word "leadershippy."

Heard during one of the local sportscasts that Marsh-Melo has dropped almost twenty pounds and looking cut. He could use it. There isn't any muscle definition on a guy who is supposed to be a "top 10" NBA ballplayer.

Have it directly from a HOF Celtic that while Pitino was there they were not really the Celtics, up to and including disrespecting RED.  If Pierce had to endure that, which I think is the case, then he is that much more superior to Melo.

Nrmax88, no offense, but it disturbs me when knicks fans think like you.  And there are many of them.  Amare signed with the knicks when no one else would, and he embraced the role of alpha dog and was playing like an mvp candidate in dantonis system.  Then dolan #$%^ed everything up and forced melo into dantonis system and with amare, none of which was even a halfway intelligent idea, and walsh and dantoni and everyone else knew it.  Melo comes in and plays typical melo selfish ball whch is exacerbated because dolan made them deal away their goddamn point guard.  Then melo got the coach fired, the coach who amare signed with to play for, and oh yeah, baron davis was the pg, exacerbating the problem even more.

Amare went from savior of the knicks, the guy who signed with them when no one would, and mvp candidate...to most hated athlete in ny because of melo and his selfish ways.  Guess what? I dont give a damn that hes not a point guard, if hes a top ten player in the nba, then he should be good enough to realize what needs to be done, he also should try hard for whoever is coaching him, something he admittedly did not do with dantoni.  Melo is what is wrong with the nba.

Hopefully for all knciks fans sake melo will wake up and change.  But he is not the guy yet that can lead anyone to anything except a first round loss. 

Nrmax88, no offense, but it disturbs me when knicks fans think like you.  And there are many of them.  Amare signed with the knicks when no one else would, and he embraced the role of alpha dog and was playing like an mvp candidate in dantonis system.  Then dolan #$%^ed everything up and forced melo into dantonis system and with amare, none of which was even a halfway intelligent idea, and walsh and dantoni and everyone else knew it.  Melo comes in and plays typical melo selfish ball whch is exacerbated because dolan made them deal away their goddamn point guard.  Then melo got the coach fired, the coach who amare signed with to play for, and oh yeah, baron davis was the pg, exacerbating the problem even more.

Amare went from savior of the knicks, the guy who signed with them when no one would, and mvp candidate...to most hated athlete in ny because of melo and his selfish ways.  Guess what? I dont give a damn that hes not a point guard, if hes a top ten player in the nba, then he should be good enough to realize what needs to be done, he also should try hard for whoever is coaching him, something he admittedly did not do with dantoni.  Melo is what is wrong with the nba.

Hopefully for all knciks fans sake melo will wake up and change.  But he is not the guy yet that can lead anyone to anything except a first round loss.

The Knicks were the only team stupid enough to offer a guy with chronic injury problems a 5yr 100million dollar contract. Savior? yeah right, anyone would take that money and run. Sure I loved him when he was playing great, but that's how it is with sports. You can't blame Melo for everything. Amare flat out stinks now. He didn't go from MVP candidate to completley worthless because Melo joined the Knicks. It's his own fault. The fact is he has one of the worst basketball IQ's in the league. He's not willing to step up his D like Melo did last season.

Also, the Melo trade was a good idea. We weren't going anywhere with that team anyway. I love Gallo, but he's way too inconsistent, and is a role player, most likely never an all star. Same with Wilson Chandler, he's a good solid role player. Felton is a back up PG now. Mosgov is a good solid backup center, but that's it. That was a good trade. Remember, we weren't exactly world beaters even before that trade, we were around .500. Did we give up too much? Probably, but in the long run, it's clear that super stars win championships, and we have one now in Melo. We just need to get the right team around him. Remember, Dirk Nowitzki was looked at the same way as Melo is now. Great player, but not good enough to lead his team to a championship. That wasn't the case, they just needed to get the right team around him.

People who blame Melo for everything are wrong. Let's look at the Knicks lineup Melo had to work with against the heat:

C-Chandler:

Not known for his offense. Can't create his own shot. Knicks had no capable point guard in the playoffs, therefore, Tyson was not a viable scoring option.

PF-Amare:

Punched a fire extinguisher.

SG-Landry Fields

He's Landry Fields...enough said.

PG-Baron Davis/Mike Bibby/Toney Douglas

Yeah, those were the Knicks point guards during the playoff series against the Miami Heat. 

Bench: Novak, JR Smith, Jared Jeffries

JR Smith doesn't know when to stop shooting, even when he's only 30%. Jeffries may be the worst offensive player in the NBA. Novak was incapable of getting a shot off the entire series. Miami's closeouts were ridiculous.

My point is, what the hell did Melo have to work with? New York was doomed from the moment idiot Amare decided to take his anger out on that fire extinguisher, or perhaps when Lin hurt his knee. It's actually a miracle we were able to get one game, and that win can be credited almost completely to Carmelo as he had 40 points.

Carmelo needs a point guard to help see the floor and take the pressure off of him. I think a combo of Lin/Kidd will help with that.

Quote from: Tha Kid on July 08, 2012, 09:54:18 PM

Nrmax88, no offense, but it disturbs me when knicks fans think like you.  And there are many of them.  Amare signed with the knicks when no one else would, and he embraced the role of alpha dog and was playing like an mvp candidate in dantonis system.  Then dolan #$%^ed everything up and forced melo into dantonis system and with amare, none of which was even a halfway intelligent idea, and walsh and dantoni and everyone else knew it.  Melo comes in and plays typical melo selfish ball whch is exacerbated because dolan made them deal away their goddamn point guard.  Then melo got the coach fired, the coach who amare signed with to play for, and oh yeah, baron davis was the pg, exacerbating the problem even more.

Amare went from savior of the knicks, the guy who signed with them when no one would, and mvp candidate...to most hated athlete in ny because of melo and his selfish ways.  Guess what? I dont give a damn that hes not a point guard, if hes a top ten player in the nba, then he should be good enough to realize what needs to be done, he also should try hard for whoever is coaching him, something he admittedly did not do with dantoni.  Melo is what is wrong with the nba.

Hopefully for all knciks fans sake melo will wake up and change.  But he is not the guy yet that can lead anyone to anything except a first round loss.

The Knicks were the only team stupid enough to offer a guy with chronic injury problems a 5yr 100million dollar contract. Savior? yeah right, anyone would take that money and run. Sure I loved him when he was playing great, but that's how it is with sports. You can't blame Melo for everything. Amare flat out stinks now. He didn't go from MVP candidate to completley worthless because Melo joined the Knicks. It's his own fault. The fact is he has one of the worst basketball IQ's in the league. He's not willing to step up his D like Melo did last season.

Also, the Melo trade was a good idea. We weren't going anywhere with that team anyway. I love Gallo, but he's way too inconsistent, and is a role player, most likely never an all star. Same with Wilson Chandler, he's a good solid role player. Felton is a back up PG now. Mosgov is a good solid backup center, but that's it. That was a good trade. Remember, we weren't exactly world beaters even before that trade, we were around .500. Did we give up too much? Probably, but in the long run, it's clear that super stars win championships, and we have one now in Melo. We just need to get the right team around him. Remember, Dirk Nowitzki was looked at the same way as Melo is now. Great player, but not good enough to lead his team to a championship. That wasn't the case, they just needed to get the right team around him.

People who blame Melo for everything are wrong. Let's look at the Knicks lineup Melo had to work with against the heat:

C-Chandler:

Not known for his offense. Can't create his own shot. Knicks had no capable point guard in the playoffs, therefore, Tyson was not a viable scoring option.

PF-Amare:

Punched a fire extinguisher.

SG-Landry Fields

He's Landry Fields...enough said.

PG-Baron Davis/Mike Bibby/Toney Douglas

Yeah, those were the Knicks point guards during the playoff series against the Miami Heat. 

Bench: Novak, JR Smith, Jared Jeffries

JR Smith doesn't know when to stop shooting, even when he's only 30%. Jeffries may be the worst offensive player in the NBA. Novak was incapable of getting a shot off the entire series. Miami's closeouts were ridiculous.

My point is, what the hell did Melo have to work with? New York was doomed from the moment idiot Amare decided to take his anger out on that fire extinguisher, or perhaps when Lin hurt his knee. It's actually a miracle we were able to get one game, and that win can be credited almost completely to Carmelo as he had 40 points.

Carmelo needs a point guard to help see the floor and take the pressure off of him. I think a combo of Lin/Kidd will help with that.

Agree with Kid. And with those same players sans Melo J Lin lead them to 8wins in 9 games till Melo came back and worked his magic I mean selfish touch. Just ask G Karl about Melo he had him for all those years in Denver. You say you can't blame it all on Melo-why not it worked with Marbury?

Someone told me a stat today and I'm not sure if it's true or not.

What is the knicks winning % with Melo playing ? Does anyone know ?Or what was it before the Melo trade last year

redstorm212 great posts lately.

Amare, "signed with Knicks when noone else would". Of course he did, the guy is a doorman.

You cant win in the NBA nowadays without stars on your team. I hated the Melo trade at first, and hated Anthony halfway thru this year. But he bought into the system when Amare just stood around. Carmelo carried the Knicks into the playoffs. I love Gallinari as well, but what have he, Felton,Wilson Chandler and Mozgov actually done?

JR SMith is a love/hate guy for me. Sharp as a bowling bowl. He was forced to play way too many minutes last year down the stretch, but he hit some huge shots. If we dont get Lou Williams, I want JR back

Quote from: redstorm212 on July 08, 2012, 10:22:15 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on July 08, 2012, 09:54:18 PM

Nrmax88, no offense, but it disturbs me when knicks fans think like you.  And there are many of them.  Amare signed with the knicks when no one else would, and he embraced the role of alpha dog and was playing like an mvp candidate in dantonis system.  Then dolan #$%^ed everything up and forced melo into dantonis system and with amare, none of which was even a halfway intelligent idea, and walsh and dantoni and everyone else knew it.  Melo comes in and plays typical melo selfish ball whch is exacerbated because dolan made them deal away their goddamn point guard.  Then melo got the coach fired, the coach who amare signed with to play for, and oh yeah, baron davis was the pg, exacerbating the problem even more.

Amare went from savior of the knicks, the guy who signed with them when no one would, and mvp candidate...to most hated athlete in ny because of melo and his selfish ways.  Guess what? I dont give a damn that hes not a point guard, if hes a top ten player in the nba, then he should be good enough to realize what needs to be done, he also should try hard for whoever is coaching him, something he admittedly did not do with dantoni.  Melo is what is wrong with the nba.

Hopefully for all knciks fans sake melo will wake up and change.  But he is not the guy yet that can lead anyone to anything except a first round loss.

The Knicks were the only team stupid enough to offer a guy with chronic injury problems a 5yr 100million dollar contract. Savior? yeah right, anyone would take that money and run. Sure I loved him when he was playing great, but that's how it is with sports. You can't blame Melo for everything. Amare flat out stinks now. He didn't go from MVP candidate to completley worthless because Melo joined the Knicks. It's his own fault. The fact is he has one of the worst basketball IQ's in the league. He's not willing to step up his D like Melo did last season.

Also, the Melo trade was a good idea. We weren't going anywhere with that team anyway. I love Gallo, but he's way too inconsistent, and is a role player, most likely never an all star. Same with Wilson Chandler, he's a good solid role player. Felton is a back up PG now. Mosgov is a good solid backup center, but that's it. That was a good trade. Remember, we weren't exactly world beaters even before that trade, we were around .500. Did we give up too much? Probably, but in the long run, it's clear that super stars win championships, and we have one now in Melo. We just need to get the right team around him. Remember, Dirk Nowitzki was looked at the same way as Melo is now. Great player, but not good enough to lead his team to a championship. That wasn't the case, they just needed to get the right team around him.

People who blame Melo for everything are wrong. Let's look at the Knicks lineup Melo had to work with against the heat:

C-Chandler:

Not known for his offense. Can't create his own shot. Knicks had no capable point guard in the playoffs, therefore, Tyson was not a viable scoring option.

PF-Amare:

Punched a fire extinguisher.

SG-Landry Fields

He's Landry Fields...enough said.

PG-Baron Davis/Mike Bibby/Toney Douglas

Yeah, those were the Knicks point guards during the playoff series against the Miami Heat. 

Bench: Novak, JR Smith, Jared Jeffries

JR Smith doesn't know when to stop shooting, even when he's only 30%. Jeffries may be the worst offensive player in the NBA. Novak was incapable of getting a shot off the entire series. Miami's closeouts were ridiculous.

My point is, what the hell did Melo have to work with? New York was doomed from the moment idiot Amare decided to take his anger out on that fire extinguisher, or perhaps when Lin hurt his knee. It's actually a miracle we were able to get one game, and that win can be credited almost completely to Carmelo as he had 40 points.

Carmelo needs a point guard to help see the floor and take the pressure off of him. I think a combo of Lin/Kidd will help with that.

Agree with Kid. And with those same players sans Melo J Lin lead them to 8wins in 9 games till Melo came back and worked his magic I mean selfish touch. Just ask G Karl about Melo he had him for all those years in Denver. You say you can't blame it all on Melo-why not it worked with Marbury?

Melo was winning 50 games a year in Denver. I think any Knicks fan would sign up for that. Lin is very good. I think he and Melo will co-exist well once they get used to each other. Knicks also won 9/12 to close the season when it was Melo sans Lin, to counter your point. Melo is unfairly labeled as a selfish guy who refuses to change. In fact, his defense improved immensely last season when he was asked to improve. Stoudemire on the other hand remained hopeless on D.

Let's not compare Melo to Marbury. The Knicks are 10x better now than they were when Marbury ran the show. I bet Knicks fans have a different opinion on Melo once next season starts.

Amare went through hell last year i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt but a bit concerned with him. As far as the Carmelo trade when you get the chance to grab an all star and one of the best in the game you do it. I never understood why people said the Knicks gave up so much. I loved Felton but look at him now, he's out of shape gaining little interest on the free agency market. I also love Wilson but he has been constantly injured and there was no guarantee he would of been back in NY after that season. Gallo is good but will never be able to put up a fight against Lebron. Mike D'Antoni got himself fired. The dude was way over his head in NY. All the great coaches adapt to what is on their roster. When you leave one of the best scorers on the wing with more trust having Jeremy Lin control the team you aren't going to get far. The fact that through all the injuries and turmoil Mike Woodson went 18-6 speaks volumes.

redstorm212 great posts lately.

Amare, "signed with Knicks when noone else would". Of course he did, the guy is a doorman.

You cant win in the NBA nowadays without stars on your team. I hated the Melo trade at first, and hated Anthony halfway thru this year. But he bought into the system when Amare just stood around. Carmelo carried the Knicks into the playoffs. I love Gallinari as well, but what have he, Felton,Wilson Chandler and Mozgov actually done?

JR SMith is a love/hate guy for me. Sharp as a bowling bowl. He was forced to play way too many minutes last year down the stretch, but he hit some huge shots. If we dont get Lou Williams, I want JR back

Agree about JR. He can win you games just as easily as he can lose them for you. Really inconsistent with his shooting. Bad Bball IQ, but as freakishly athletic as any SG in the league. I would take him back, but would rather have OJ Mayo. Lou Williams would be a good pickup.

Another great post by redstorm212. Melo's effort on D drastically changed. And yes the injuries left him with noone to pass to. I wanted the ball in his hands everytime down the court. Fields couldnt hit water if he fell off the Titanic, Baron Davis scared the hell out of me everytime he touched the rock,Jefferies was a 6'10 Lt Dan, crazy JR was shooting from halfcourt,my man Chandler was option #2. Knicks win their division next year

Why is it OK for Melo's effort to change drastically from D'Antoni to Woodson, but he doesnt get blamed for the lack of effort with D'Antoni, yet when you guys claim Amare just "stands around" under Woodson, he gets blamed?  Isn't it along the same lines?  And maybe he stands around because that is an NBA team's offense when Carmelo Anthony plays for you!

Why is it OK for Melo's effort to change drastically from D'Antoni to Woodson, but he doesnt get blamed for the lack of effort with D'Antoni, yet when you guys claim Amare just "stands around" under Woodson, he gets blamed?  Isn't it along the same lines?  And maybe he stands around because that is an NBA team's offense when Carmelo Anthony plays for you!

Because D'Antoni sucks. He's way too laid back and never pushes his players. Still no excuse to not give effort on D though. But it speaks volumes that Melo bought in once Woodson came aboard and Amare did not. The Knicks were 18-6 once Woodson took over. It's hard to say that this team can't work with Melo after knowing that. Lin and Melo showed flashes last year that they could play together. It's Amare that needs to suck it up and buy in, not Melo.

Quote from: Tha Kid on July 09, 2012, 10:13:37 AM

Why is it OK for Melo's effort to change drastically from D'Antoni to Woodson, but he doesnt get blamed for the lack of effort with D'Antoni, yet when you guys claim Amare just "stands around" under Woodson, he gets blamed?  Isn't it along the same lines?  And maybe he stands around because that is an NBA team's offense when Carmelo Anthony plays for you!

Because D'Antoni sucks. He's way too laid back and never pushes his players. Still no excuse to not give effort on D though. But it speaks volumes that Melo bought in once Woodson came aboard and Amare did not. The Knicks were 18-6 once Woodson took over. It's hard to say that this team can't work with Melo after knowing that. Lin and Melo showed flashes last year that they could play together. It's Amare that needs to suck it up and buy in, not Melo.

Think MJ, Kobe or Lebron had to be pushed by their coach to try on D. Melo was taking alot of heat for D'Antoni firing so he put out more for Woodson for 20 games. Let's see him do it all year. And melo had some pretty good teammates in Denver-wasn't all his doin winning 50 games.

Quote from: redstorm212 on July 09, 2012, 03:56:12 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on July 09, 2012, 10:13:37 AM

Why is it OK for Melo's effort to change drastically from D'Antoni to Woodson, but he doesnt get blamed for the lack of effort with D'Antoni, yet when you guys claim Amare just "stands around" under Woodson, he gets blamed?  Isn't it along the same lines?  And maybe he stands around because that is an NBA team's offense when Carmelo Anthony plays for you!

Because D'Antoni sucks. He's way too laid back and never pushes his players. Still no excuse to not give effort on D though. But it speaks volumes that Melo bought in once Woodson came aboard and Amare did not. The Knicks were 18-6 once Woodson took over. It's hard to say that this team can't work with Melo after knowing that. Lin and Melo showed flashes last year that they could play together. It's Amare that needs to suck it up and buy in, not Melo.

Think MJ, Kobe or Lebron had to be pushed by their coach to try on D. Melo was taking alot of heat for D'Antoni firing so he put out more for Woodson for 20 games. Let's see him do it all year. And melo had some pretty good teammates in Denver-wasn't all his doin winning 50 games.

Haha, so when he wins in Denver it's because he has really good teammates. But when he loses in NY, it's all his fault because he's a selfish ball hog. Makes sense.

I'm not excusing his lack of effort under D'Antoni. But you have to give him credit for changing his ways under Woodson.