The Rest of the Way

Blaming it on the zone is a cop-out and bogus IMO.  Sorry Ted.  We killed them with the zone most of the game.  It was a failure of our players rotating too slowly.  We were tired and lackadaisical during that portion of the second half at both ends.  This had absolutely nothing to do with coaching adjustments.  Basketball is a game of runs and Murray State went on one when we were being sloppy.  They grabbed a late win.

Do you think Boeheim is a failure because he doesn't adjust his way out of a 2-3 zone when teams are hitting their shots?  How about Coach K or Izzo who never leave their man defense?  Izzo's Michigan State team got picked apart by Uconn because their man-D sucked horribly.  Did Izzo get outclassed or was it just that his players didn't execute? 

Listen, I'll reiterate that this had zero do with lack of coaching adjustments.  Their ball reversal didn't speed up.  They spread us out a bit more and we were tired or lazy or whatever and we didn't cover ground like we did most of the game.  What tells me it was execution is that our offense looked just as bad during that stretch and had no problems for most of the game.

Basketball is about execution and playing for the full 40 minutes.  Right now we're playing for about 32 minutes per game.  Time, experience and further game conditioning will lead to improvement, not some miraculous coaching adustment, as we killed them during the large portion of the game when we were executing.

Quote from: Redstormy80 on November 17, 2012, 12:33:29 AM

Lavin cant go out there and play. We lost because we ran out of gas and started having mental errors. It easy for everyone to criticize every move after a loss but I think Lavin put together a great gameplan. It worked for most of the game but as a team we didn't execute it down the stretcg

Pre season is where you work out the kinks and discover what needs work. We're doing that now, and surely tomorrow. This was Murray State, who really is the new Gonzaga. If we are losing to Holy Cross, we're in trouble. This was a battle, and we came up short. The season can still be solid after one loss.

Exactly, we held them to 41.5% from the field and 33.3% from 3. Coming into the game they were scoring in the mid 80's today 72 points. Also held arguably the best point guard in college basketball to a 5-18 shooting performance. IMO defensive scheme was great

Blaming it on the zone is a cop-out and bogus IMO.  Sorry Ted.  We killed them with the zone most of the game.  It was a failure of our players rotating too slowly.  We were tired and lackadaisical during that portion of the second half at both ends.  This had absolutely nothing to do with coaching adjustments.  Basketball is a game of runs and Murray State went on one when we were being sloppy.  They grabbed a late win.

Do you think Boeheim is a failure because he doesn't adjust his way out of a 2-3 zone when teams are hitting their shots?  How about Coach K or Izzo who never leave their man defense?  Izzo's Michigan State team got picked apart by Uconn because their man-D sucked horribly.  Did Izzo get outclassed or was it just that his players didn't execute? 

Listen, I'll reiterate that this had zero do with lack of coaching adjustments.  Their ball reversal didn't speed up.  They spread us out a bit more and we were tired or lazy or whatever and we didn't cover ground like we did most of the game.  What tells me it was execution is that our offense looked just as bad during that stretch and had no problems for most of the game.

Basketball is about execution and playing for the full 40 minutes.  Right now we're playing for about 32 minutes per game.  Time, experience and further game conditioning will lead to improvement, not some miraculous coaching adustment, as we killed them during the large portion of the game when we were executing.

The difference is that this has been a problem for us since Lavin arrived.  It's nothing new.  We will get better I don't argue that. But to blame this on the players when this has been happening for 3 years is not fair to the players.  If a team is burning you from three you adjust.  Just like Murray adjusted on us ad did all the things you mentioned in your post to get the open 3. Again IMHO this falls on Lavin.

Quote from: MCNPA on November 17, 2012, 12:46:26 AM

Blaming it on the zone is a cop-out and bogus IMO.  Sorry Ted.  We killed them with the zone most of the game.  It was a failure of our players rotating too slowly.  We were tired and lackadaisical during that portion of the second half at both ends.  This had absolutely nothing to do with coaching adjustments.  Basketball is a game of runs and Murray State went on one when we were being sloppy.  They grabbed a late win.

Do you think Boeheim is a failure because he doesn't adjust his way out of a 2-3 zone when teams are hitting their shots?  How about Coach K or Izzo who never leave their man defense?  Izzo's Michigan State team got picked apart by Uconn because their man-D sucked horribly.  Did Izzo get outclassed or was it just that his players didn't execute? 

Listen, I'll reiterate that this had zero do with lack of coaching adjustments.  Their ball reversal didn't speed up.  They spread us out a bit more and we were tired or lazy or whatever and we didn't cover ground like we did most of the game.  What tells me it was execution is that our offense looked just as bad during that stretch and had no problems for most of the game.

Basketball is about execution and playing for the full 40 minutes.  Right now we're playing for about 32 minutes per game.  Time, experience and further game conditioning will lead to improvement, not some miraculous coaching adustment, as we killed them during the large portion of the game when we were executing.

The difference is that this has been a problem for us since Lavin arrived.  It's nothing new.  We will get better I don't argue that. But to blame this on the players when this has been happening for 3 years is not fair to the players.  If a team is burning you from three you adjust.  Just like Murray adjusted on us ad did all the things you mentioned in your post to get the open 3. Again IMHO this falls on Lavin.

This is 100% inaccurate.  Lavin's first year was with Norm's players and we made the NCAA tournament.  We even blew out NCAA champ Uconn that year.  Not sure where you're getting that it was a huge problem, even if we werent firstinnthe conference in 3pt FG% defense.  Last year Lavin didn't even coach, Dunlap did.  We also played with a severely depleted roster so we had to pay a very limited zone defense.  It was certainly a problem last year.  It wasn't a problem Lavin created.  Dunlap was coaching and making all the adjustments. 

This season we're off to a great start and lost to Murray State by a few points.  We held them to 33% from 3 which doesn't indicate any problem at all.  Our lapse came when we failed to rotate, it is as simple as that.  I can't see how you attribute Murray state's 3-4 made treys on lack of adjustments.  I think it is misinformed to say the least.

refs killed us

Saint John's blew a 15 point lead in a game where they:

-- shot twice as many free throws as their opponents

-- turned the ball over 14 times

-- shot 20 percent from three

-- did not score between the 7:30 mark and the 3:30 mark in the second half

-- had as many field goals (4) in the last 10 minutes of the game as turnovers (3)

Oooo. Darn those refs. They killed us.

looking ahead, the schedule is soft after baylor and before the big east.  maybe coach can figure out a way to get five players in double figures.

we lost because we ran out of gas at the end of each half (see detroit).

we were up by 17 at one point...seven towards the end of the game.
 
lavin insists on a short bench.  felix comes in and we pull away thanks to his insane play.  we never see him again.  he he wants a short bench, then run the players in practice until they puke.  where's dunlap when we need him.

felix comes in and we pull away thanks to his insane play.  we never see him again. 

Felix played in the 2nd half

Quote from: newsman13 on November 17, 2012, 08:10:34 AM

felix comes in and we pull away thanks to his insane play.  we never see him again. 

Felix played in the 2nd half

He came in only once in second half.

we lost because we ran out of gas at the end of each half (see detroit).

we were up by 17 at one point...seven towards the end of the game.
 
lavin insists on a short bench.  felix comes in and we pull away thanks to his insane play.  we never see him again.  he he wants a short bench, then run the players in practice until they puke.  where's dunlap when we need him.

Agree newsie.  If we're going to play balls to the wall, we need to be in shape for it and use our depth.  This is something that must improve, whether it be by subbing more earlier in the half of by our conditioning.  It will improve though.  This week is particularly tough though, as it was already our 3rd game.

Quote from: desco80 on November 16, 2012, 11:47:56 PM

Also, teams will be foolish not to start playing a zone against us until we prove we can pass and shoot.   

We know how hard it is for a team to pickup a zone not having to look past our own guys.  Some teams just play man and trying to teach their kids a zone is pointless and will take too long for them to learn.  Those games will play into our hands.

For years I've harped on how we get leads and we don't go for the jugular.  We had a 13 point lead and never made it 17 or 18.  Last night we had 17 and never made it 20 or 21 and all of a sudden it slips a bit.  Some games it slips all the way to 0, some days it doesnt.  We have to make sure we keep pressing the gas not the brakes.  But we need a true PG to press the gas sometimes.  Hello Branch!

Absolutely..Its all about recognition...recognizing that we should be looking for a high % shot or drawing a foul...its the difference between emboldening the competition and sapping their will...its just smart basketball...we'll get there

Quote from: kjd01067 on November 17, 2012, 09:10:44 AM

Quote from: newsman13 on November 17, 2012, 08:10:34 AM

felix comes in and we pull away thanks to his insane play.  we never see him again. 

Felix played in the 2nd half

He came in only once in second half.

I am aware.  He said that "we never saw him again," I was pointing out that his statement was incorrect.

Quote from: sju89tr on November 16, 2012, 11:41:01 PM

refs killed us

Saint John's blew a 15 point lead in a game where they:

-- shot twice as many free throws as their opponents

-- turned the ball over 14 times

-- shot 20 percent from three

-- did not score between the 7:30 mark and the 3:30 mark in the second half

-- had as many field goals (4) in the last 10 minutes of the game as turnovers (3)

Oooo. Darn those refs. They killed us.

Great post.

Quote from: sju89tr on November 17, 2012, 09:21:08 AM

Quote from: kjd01067 on November 17, 2012, 09:10:44 AM

Quote from: newsman13 on November 17, 2012, 08:10:34 AM

felix comes in and we pull away thanks to his insane play.  we never see him again. 

Felix played in the 2nd half

He came in only once in second half.

I am aware.  He said that "we never saw him again," I was pointing out that his statement was incorrect.

He should have played more than 7 minutes, he came in and provided a spark, especially with the defenders tiring.

I'm not going to contest anyone's individual points in this thread but just to take the long view:

We just played a team which starts 4 seniors and a redshirt junior, and who went to the Sweet Sixteen last year. Our team has four guys who ever played a Division 1 college basketball game before last week. And for a good part of the game they couldnt handle us. Coaching decisions and zone rotations and ball security and all that....I dont know how you come away from yesterdays game anything but super excited about this season.

C. Jones is better than advertised, but you give Sanchez his minutes- with the options that gives you on offense and the better D and rebounding- we are downright dangerous. Branch doesnt even have to be the amazing "pure" PG everyone is expecting...just his presence allows DLo to stay off the ball when Greene comes out.

I'm usually a cautious optimism, "show me" type. But I'm already stoked about this team. I think alot of people are going to look back in amazement that we were picked to finish 10th in the BE.

looking ahead, the schedule is soft after baylor and before the big east.   

UNC Ashville and South Carolina are soft?

Quote from: Foad on November 17, 2012, 07:14:14 AM

Quote from: sju89tr on November 16, 2012, 11:41:01 PM

refs killed us

Saint John's blew a 15 point lead in a game where they:

-- shot twice as many free throws as their opponents

-- turned the ball over 14 times

-- shot 20 percent from three

-- did not score between the 7:30 mark and the 3:30 mark in the second half

-- had as many field goals (4) in the last 10 minutes of the game as turnovers (3)

Oooo. Darn those refs. They killed us.

Great post.

no question the team played poorly in the second half.  but they played like world beaters in the first half.  had the refs called a proper game, murray st never gets back into the game, and never gets back the momentum.  they got a big big lift at the end of the half due to the ref's calls.  i love how lavin conducts himself.  but the technical from the other coach at the beginning of the game definitely affected the refs.  i thought it would have been appropriate in this situation for lavin to get a little angry out there.  another thing that i feel worth mentioning.  we lost the ball in the second half when greene's sneakers gave out and he slipped.  i've been harping on this because i think its important.  our guys have been sliding all three games so far.  i'm sure we have some sort of contract with the sneaker company, but somebody is going to get hurt.  mark my words.

10-2 Non-conference and 10-8 Conference is very doable.

 I thought these would be 2 tough games.  Very competitive against very good comp but need to shore up some holes and they have weaker comp to do it against.

10-2 Non-conference and 10-8 Conference is very doable.

 I thought these would be 2 tough games.  Very competitive against very good comp but need to shore up some holes and they have weaker comp to do it against.

First hurdle is those 8 games left OOC.  Win those 8.  Depending how we look and getting Orlando in the mix I would be tempted to jump your 10-8 to 12-6.

Quote from: newsman13 on November 17, 2012, 07:16:06 AM

looking ahead, the schedule is soft after baylor and before the big east.   

UNC Ashville and South Carolina are soft?

compared to us.