Felipe Discussion from Rysheed Thread

fran f used to stomp his foot when zendon did something stupid. i believe he wore out at least 4 pairs....

fran f used to stomp his foot when zendon did something stupid. i believe he wore out at least 4 pairs....

Fran had enough by the end. Benched him in favor of Ty Grant who really came into his own towards the second half of that 97-98 season.

All hell is breaking loose! Betty White is using Pistol Pete in defense of Felipe Lopez and now someone whose basketball opinion I generally agree with (usually in a round about way) puts Zendon Hamilton in a sentence with The Truth.

As far as Wennington goes it really is the same argument you used for Jackson. Becuase he played 100 years in the NBA and tagged along with MJ for a couple championships I think his college career is overated. In defense of Jackson as you mentioned he had two great seasons. Would have been four, but you can pin the first two on Louie as I will argue to the death that Moses should not have played over him those two years.

I like Boo as much as you, but I think he is properly rated. I think he is either the 2nd or 3rd best point guard we have had in my lifetime.

Rowan had one nice season and hit a huge shot. Even got to play in the league for 3 games I believe. I think back fondly of him, but he no way overate him. I think he would have benefited more than anyone we have ever had that came along pre three point line. And NO Mullin did not need any more help.

I found Brust amusing but he was just a role player. I agree he is overated by the fan base.

======


I've decided to demonstrate my solidarity by eschewing the quote function.

- If I mentioned Berry and ZH in a sentence about left handers would that be okay? Point is, ZH put up sick numbers, but for the passing, which but for the passing isn't held against other players who weren't fond of passing, eg WB.

- I don't know that anyone names Wennington as an all time great, He is, as my boon companion Poison notes, about the best center SJ has ever had. That isn't saying much.

- Mark Jackson played 40 minutes in the Niagara loss in 84 and split time with Moses in the three GT losses. In the one game we beat GT Moses played 27 minutes to Jackson's 13.

- Boo is perhaps not so much underrated as overlooked. I might put him second after Hatten, although I wouldn't argue with someone who picked Jackson or Barkley.

- Rowan is overrated exactly because he hit that shot. If someone else had taken it he'd rememebred as a better looking Terrence Mullin. I think we can all at least agree that Rowan was dreamy.

"I've decided to demonstrate my solidarity by eschewing the quote function.

- If I mentioned Berry and ZH in a sentence about left handers would that be okay? Point is, ZH put up sick numbers, but for the passing, which but for the passing isn't held against other players who weren't fond of passing, eg WB.

- I don't know that anyone names Wennington as an all time great, He is, as my boon companion Poison notes, about the best center SJ has ever had. That isn't saying much.

- Mark Jackson played 40 minutes in the Niagara loss in 84 and split time with Moses in the three GT losses. In the one game we beat GT Moses played 27 minutes to Jackson's 13.

- Boo is perhaps not so much underrated as overlooked. I might put him second after Hatten, although I wouldn't argue with someone who picked Jackson or Barkley.

- Rowan is overrated exactly because he hit that shot. If someone else had taken it he'd rememebred as a better looking Terrence Mullin. I think we can all at least agree that Rowan was dreamy."

Above quote from a member of the fellowship of eschewing the quote function


Rowan looked like a young Sting.(Police Sting not wrestler Sting)

As far Zendon at 6-11 he shot 47 percent from the field(which is better than I thought before I checked btw) and often resembled a chicken w/o a head.
At 6-8 Berry shot 58% from the field and really should not have passed to anyone as he really was unstopable down low. He too was herky jerky, but it just looked cooler.
I know you are just using Berry as a high end example of why Hamilton should have been more appreciated, but I just happen to hold Berry in a ridiculously high regard. If I were to be honest I liked him better than Mullin and after Strawberry and Gooden he is my third favorite athlete of all time.

I know he played the position his Junior year but I do not consider Hatten a point. Same rule applies for Hardy
My list
1. Jackson
2. Barkley
3. Boo
4. Cain senior year
5. Cook
6. Buchanon
1,769. Geno

Never was quite sure who was the point guard Reggie Carter or Bernie Rencher, but one of them belong in the all time top 10 point guards at SJU.

As far Zendon at 6-11 he shot 47 percent from the field(which is better than I thought before I checked btw) and often resembled a chicken w/o a head.
At 6-8 Berry shot 58% from the field and really should not have passed to anyone as he really was unstopable down low. He too was herky jerky, but it just looked cooler.
I know you are just using Berry as a high end example of why Hamilton should have been more appreciated, but I just happen to hold Berry in a ridiculously high regard. If I were to be honest I liked him better than Mullin and after Strawberry and Gooden he is my third favorite athlete of all time.

I know he played the position his Junior year but I do not consider Hatten a point. Same rule applies for Hardy
My list
1. Jackson
2. Barkley
3. Boo
4. Cain senior year
5. Cook
6. Buchanon
1,769. Geno

============

- Just to clarify I'm not comparing Hamilton and Berry as players. Berry does not compare to anyone. Just noting that the "black hole" appellation isn't tossed casually at Berry, as it is at Hamilton, despite their similar assist numbers.

- Hatten obviously wasn't a pure pg but I have to squeeze him onto the all time team starting team somehow. Mullin's the SG. That leaves the point.

- If Geno is 1769 I assume Tarik Turner is 1770.

Never was quite sure who was the point guard Reggie Carter or Bernie Rencher, but one of them belong in the all time top 10 point guards at SJU.

I was going to mention Rencher and Mel Utley but they're before SJU's time. I have but vague memories of them myself. Alagia as well. 

 Just to clarify I'm not comparing Hamilton and Berry as players. Berry does not compare to anyone. Just noting that the "black hole" appellation isn't tossed casually at Berry, as it is at Hamilton, despite their similar assist numbers.

- Hatten obviously wasn't a pure pg but I have to squeeze him onto the all time team starting team somehow. Mullin's the SG. That leaves the point.

- If Geno is 1769 I assume Tarik Turner is 1770.
QUOTE FROM FUN(IF EITHER DAVE WERE STILL ALIVE OR LJSA WASN'T A DBAG I WOULDN'T HAVE TO KEEP DOING THIS, WILL PROBABLY STOP AFTER THIS POST ANYWAY AS GIMMICK IS GETTING OLD.)

I would go unconventional but accurate as my top 5 all played their position in college
C Berry
PF Artest
SF Sealy
SG Mullin
PG Jackson

Tarik was....not great. He does have the advantage over Geno in a few areas though:
Played in an NCAA tourney game
The offense did not revolve around him dribbling for 30 seconds
Did not wear a headband 3 sizes too small
Did not wear socks to his armpits
He once hit two big free throws to beat Gtown and Iverson at the Garden
Was not the face of the Norm era
Most importantly, I know him a little and good guy so he gets ranked ahead of Geno

-QUOTE FROM FUN(IF EITHER DAVE WERE STILL ALIVE OR LJSA WASN'T A DBAG I WOULDN'T HAVE TO KEEP DOING THIS, WILL PROBABLY STOP AFTER THIS POST ANYWAY AS GIMMICK IS GETTING OLD.)

The gimmick was old the first time you did it, and this d-bag forgot about you immediately after making fun of you.

You on the other hand have let it bother you for two days like an eighth-grade girl. What's next? Are you going to start spreading nasty rumors about me and try to convince my friends to stop sitting with me in the cafeteria?

Quote from: we are sju on December 06, 2012, 02:26:42 PM

-QUOTE FROM FUN(IF EITHER DAVE WERE STILL ALIVE OR LJSA WASN'T A DBAG I WOULDN'T HAVE TO KEEP DOING THIS, WILL PROBABLY STOP AFTER THIS POST ANYWAY AS GIMMICK IS GETTING OLD.)

The gimmick was old the first time you did it, and this d-bag forgot about you immediately after making fun of you.

You on the other hand have let it bother you for two days like an eighth-grade girl. What's next? Are you going to start spreading nasty rumors about me and try to convince my friends to stop sitting with me in the cafeteria?

For your sake I hope you have an 8th grade girl, otherwise you know waaaay too much about the traits of 8th grade girls.

I found Brust amusing but he was just a role player. I agree he is overated by the fan base.

Matty was the best player on the squad his senior year and it's clear cut team leader.  If that's how you define "role player", than I agree.

Showtime was severely underatted and rarely ever warrants a mention in this forum and never makes it onto any lists.  Prolific scorer pre-injury straight out of the Hatten mold.  Same give him the ball, get out of the way and watch the magic style.  Did yeoman's work as a scorer on the most talent and numbers depleted SJU team ever following the Steel city sexcapade.

Quote from: we are sju on December 06, 2012, 09:44:22 AM

I found Brust amusing but he was just a role player. I agree he is overated by the fan base.

Matty was the best player on the squad his senior year and it's clear cut team leader.  If that's how you define "role player", than I agree.

Showtime was severely underatted and rarely ever warrants a mention in this forum and never makes it onto any lists.  Prolific scorer pre-injury straight out of the Hatten mold.  Same give him the ball, get out of the way and watch the magic style.  Did yeoman's work as a scorer on the most talent and numbers depleted SJU team ever following the Steel city
sexcapade.

You think Showtime was underrated? Where is he rated? Where should he be rated?

"Matty was the best player on the squad his senior year and it's clear cut team leader.  If that's how you define "role player", than I agree."
Quote from the meat in a Brust/Patterson sandwich

Brust's senior year he played with Sealy and Jayson Williams. If he was their best player than you have a higher opinion of Brust than you have of Avery "push shot" Patterson.
I did  not hate on Brust, I enjoyed his goofy antics, but yes he was a role player who brought more attention to himself by slapping floors. I am surprised that Fun has not tried to eviscerate you via post yet as he seems to hate Brust.

Brust's senior year he played with Sealy and Jayson Williams. If he was their best player than you have a higher opinion of Brust than you have of Avery "push shot" Patterson. I did  not hate on Brust, I enjoyed his goofy antics, but yes he was a role player who brought more attention to himself by slapping floors. I am surprised that Fun has not tried to eviscerate you via post yet as he seems to hate Brust.

I firmly believe that even the stupidest mule will learn to pull the plow if beaten righteously enough. Carmine however is the exception. A while back on BEB he and I had a discussion about the saxophone, an instrument I've been playing professionally for 30 years, after having taken a degree in same from a well known music school. Carmine, OTOH, was so ignorant about the subject that he could not tell a picture of an alto sax from a picture of a tenor. In the course of that discussion Carmine postulated that all understanding of art was the same - "the opinion of a hard of thinking third grader is just as valid as [a well known music critic]" - and that based upon that a "compelling argument .. could reseanably be made is that I [Carmine] am a better singer than [Renee Fleming]." I determined based upon that exchange that Carmine is an imbecile  and resolved to ignore him, which I've managed to do for the most part since. Because his "opinion" that Avery Patterson, a 30 percent shooter, was the best 3 point shooter in SJ history is as valid as Lou Carnesecca's opinion on the same subject. His opinion that floor slapping numbskull Matt Brust was a better basketball player than Malik Sealy is similarly unassailable. My time would be spent more profitably discussing Wittgenstein with the cat.

Sorry Carmine, I teed that one up for him

Sorry Carmine, I teed that one up for him

That's Ok.   I like a good tagteam as much as the next guy.

"Matty was the best player on the squad his senior year and it's clear cut team leader.  If that's how you define "role player", than I agree."
Quote from the meat in a Brust/Patterson sandwich

Brust's senior year he played with Sealy and Jayson Williams. If he was their best player than you have a higher opinion of Brust than you have of Avery "push shot" Patterson.
I did  not hate on Brust, I enjoyed his goofy antics, but yes he was a role player who brought more attention to himself by slapping floors. I am surprised that Fun has not tried to eviscerate you via post yet as he seems to hate Brust.

You are right. I'm wrong. Matty was obviously not better than the pair you mentioned.  I'd forgotten who he played with his senior year.  I did like him however.  He was the ultimate hustler that played hard and maximized his abilities.  Did a little of everything that year as his scoring, rebounding, assists and steal numbers are good.  And as a senior,  he was the heart, soul and leader of that group.

I must have a soft spot for Matty as he was in the same graduating class as Mrs. Abbatiello and played a first rate shortstop on my friends softball team.  I remember cheering more loudly for Matty than the future Mrs. A when they received their diplomas.

Quote from: we are sju on December 07, 2012, 08:29:03 AM

Brust's senior year he played with Sealy and Jayson Williams. If he was their best player than you have a higher opinion of Brust than you have of Avery "push shot" Patterson. I did  not hate on Brust, I enjoyed his goofy antics, but yes he was a role player who brought more attention to himself by slapping floors. I am surprised that Fun has not tried to eviscerate you via post yet as he seems to hate Brust.

I firmly believe that even the stupidest mule will learn to pull the plow if beaten righteously enough. Carmine however is the exception. A while back on BEB he and I had a discussion about the saxophone, an instrument I've been playing professionally for 30 years, after having taken a degree in same from a well known music school. Carmine, OTOH, was so ignorant about the subject that he could not tell a picture of an alto sax from a picture of a tenor. In the course of that discussion Carmine postulated that all understanding of art was the same - "the opinion of a hard of thinking third grader is just as valid as [a well known music critic]" - and that based upon that a "compelling argument .. could reseanably be made is that I [Carmine] am a better singer than [Renee Fleming]." I determined based upon that exchange that Carmine is an imbecile  and resolved to ignore him, which I've managed to do for the most part since. Because his "opinion" that Avery Patterson, a 30 percent shooter, was the best 3 point shooter in SJ history is as valid as Lou Carnesecca's opinion on the same subject. His opinion that floor slapping numbskull Matt Brust was a better basketball player than Malik Sealy is similarly unassailable. My time would be spent more profitably discussing Wittgenstein with the cat.

I appreciated how you pointed out that you can easily distinguish an alto from a tenor based on the shape of the neck.  Crook vs. flat and angled.  I could easily tell the difference at a show based on size and sound.  But occasionally you do learn something on the interweb.

Never postulated "that all understanding of art was the same -" as it's obviously not.  My point was that the enjoyment and appreciation of the arts is subjective.  It might be the opinion of a "hard thinking 3rd grader" that the music made by an aborigine banging on a rock with a stick is the best/most beautiful music she has ever heard.  It might be the opinion of a "professional sax player with 30 years experience" that a Michael Brecker solo is the best/most beautiful music he has ever heard.     

It might be the opinion of my mother that my singing, or that of Bob Dylan, is better than that of Renee Fleming.  It might be the opinion of Lester Bangs that the singing of Renee Fleming is far superior to that of mine and Bob's put together.

All of these opinions are correct.  There is no way to determine that a piece of music is better than the next.  Some like Beethoven.  Some like the Sex Pistols.  It's what makes the evaluation of artists and basketball players fun.

 

Quote from: we are sju on December 07, 2012, 08:29:03 AM

Brust's senior year he played with Sealy and Jayson Williams. If he was their best player than you have a higher opinion of Brust than you have of Avery "push shot" Patterson. I did  not hate on Brust, I enjoyed his goofy antics, but yes he was a role player who brought more attention to himself by slapping floors. I am surprised that Fun has not tried to eviscerate you via post yet as he seems to hate Brust.

I firmly believe that even the stupidest mule will learn to pull the plow if beaten righteously enough. Carmine however is the exception. A while back on BEB he and I had a discussion about the saxophone, an instrument I've been playing professionally for 30 years, after having taken a degree in same from a well known music school. Carmine, OTOH, was so ignorant about the subject that he could not tell a picture of an alto sax from a picture of a tenor. In the course of that discussion Carmine postulated that all understanding of art was the same - "the opinion of a hard of thinking third grader is just as valid as [a well known music critic]" - and that based upon that a "compelling argument .. could reseanably be made is that I [Carmine] am a better singer than [Renee Fleming]." I determined based upon that exchange that Carmine is an imbecile  and resolved to ignore him, which I've managed to do for the most part since. Because his "opinion" that Avery Patterson, a 30 percent shooter, was the best 3 point shooter in SJ history is as valid as Lou Carnesecca's opinion on the same subject. His opinion that floor slapping numbskull Matt Brust was a better basketball player than Malik Sealy is similarly unassailable. My time would be spent more profitably discussing Wittgenstein with the cat.

I would never ignore your rantings as I truly believe that anyone that likes theology, horse racing and Sonny Rollins; and dreams that his bong would grow a vagina can't be half bad.

P.S.  I'm now of the opinion that Avery "Single game three-point record holder" Patterson is the second greatest SJU three point shooter of all-time.  D'lo is now number one in my book.

P.S.S. Avery "Single game three-point record holder" Patterson shot 33% from three and 36% from the field.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on December 07, 2012, 12:38:44 AM

Quote from: we are sju on December 06, 2012, 09:44:22 AM

I found Brust amusing but he was just a role player. I agree he is overated by the fan base.

Matty was the best player on the squad his senior year and it's clear cut team leader.  If that's how you define "role player", than I agree.

Showtime was severely underatted and rarely ever warrants a mention in this forum and never makes it onto any lists.  Prolific scorer pre-injury straight out of the Hatten mold.  Same give him the ball, get out of the way and watch the magic style.  Did yeoman's work as a scorer on the most talent and numbers depleted SJU team ever following the Steel city
sexcapade.

You think Showtime was underrated? Where is he rated? Where should he be rated?

Maybe underrated's the wrong term for Show. Just felt he was an extremely talented player that played very well for us in his limited time here who could of had a stellar/more influential career if it wasn't tragically cut short by injury.

5 posts in a row.  I'm really bumping up my POY candidacy.