Really Really down on Lavin

For all you guys who keep blindly apologizing for the staff... you should remember what you said in the fall.

Crgreen:  "I'm calling 24 wins, minimum,  barring injuries."
Simplyred: "I love cr's optimism.  I would go with 21 wins.  With Lavin back, and a full roster, I foresee an NCAA bid."
MCNPA: "22 wins and NCAA. "
Boo:  "20 wins. Most athletic team in the BE."
Redstorm212: "20 wins going into the tournament. 11-7 BE. "
Marillac: " I feel very confident this teams wins 23 and at least one NCAA tournament game.  "

As a reminder, the team has 16 wins.   And is below .500 in the conference.   

How can you blindly defend the staff when you all expected to be substantially better than this?  Should no one be accountable for results?

  Hey Desco, when have I blindly defended anyone on the staff?   Because i don't jump to attack after every loss?  Give me a break.  Because I realize that this is essentially year two of a rebuilding process that will take 4-5 year minimum?..

 Jeez.. some of you posters are too much...  geniuses, all of you..   Thanks for the research though...

 Seriously dude, that post is the definition of being a troll..


 

For all you guys who keep blindly apologizing for the staff... you should remember what you said in the fall.

Crgreen:  "I'm calling 24 wins, minimum,  barring injuries."
Simplyred: "I love cr's optimism.  I would go with 21 wins.  With Lavin back, and a full roster, I foresee an NCAA bid."
MCNPA: "22 wins and NCAA. "
Boo:  "20 wins. Most athletic team in the BE."
Redstorm212: "20 wins going into the tournament. 11-7 BE. "
Marillac: " I feel very confident this teams wins 23 and at least one NCAA tournament game.  "

As a reminder, the team has 16 wins.   And is below .500 in the conference.   

How can you blindly defend the staff when you all expected to be substantially better than this?  Should no one be accountable for results?

hmmmmm....interesting you believe that the staff should be held accountable by those because they didn't meet the "fans" expectations. I don't believe Lavin said this was a NCAA team in the beginning of the season. He even tried to temper expectations. Its just comical. I like the direction of the program is heading.   

If we only lose Harrison next year I think we sneak into the NCAA. Personally I am fine with that. However if Sampson does something stupid and declares, and we lose Harrison we will stink. I do not like that direction at all!

If we only lose Harrison next year I think we sneak into the NCAA. Personally I am fine with that. However if Sampson does something stupid and declares, and we lose Harrison we will stink. I do not like that direction at all!

I agree that would suck. But the fact that we are getting players like Moe and Sampson tells you we are heading in the right direction. It may be a step back for 13' but we will take two steps forward in 14'. Its dissapointing to lose out on players like Lawrence and possibly Jordan, but when you only have one ship to give you don't have much room for error. We were not getting any bigs in 13' so we needed Gift's big body to bang in the middle if we're gonna make a run in the NCAA. Personally, because of the ship distribution, I had my sights set on our 14' and 15' classes to really see if we'll be able to contend with the big time programs. But i'm more patient than most.

Quote from: pmg911 on March 06, 2013, 03:13:45 PM

I had heard he was making 350k+ - that is huge salary for assistant coach.

Heard even higher.

I heard it was over 4.

For all you guys who keep blindly apologizing for the staff... you should remember what you said in the fall.

Crgreen:  "I'm calling 24 wins, minimum,  barring injuries."
Simplyred: "I love cr's optimism.  I would go with 21 wins.  With Lavin back, and a full roster, I foresee an NCAA bid."
MCNPA: "22 wins and NCAA. "
Boo:  "20 wins. Most athletic team in the BE."
Redstorm212: "20 wins going into the tournament. 11-7 BE. "
Marillac: " I feel very confident this teams wins 23 and at least one NCAA tournament game.  "

As a reminder, the team has 16 wins.   And is below .500 in the conference.   

How can you blindly defend the staff when you all expected to be substantially better than this?  Should no one be accountable for results?

CR calling for 24 wins was actually him being negative

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

Here are a few coaches first 5 years at their current schools:

A.
1980–81        17–13    6–8    T–5th    NIT Quarterfinals
1981–82      10–17    4–10    T–6th    
1982–83        11–17    3–11    7th    
1983–84        24–10    7–7    T–3rd    NCAA Round of 32
1984–85       23–8    8–6    T–4th    NCAA Round of 32

B.
2006–2007        11–19    2–14    16th    
2007–2008        13–19    8–10    10th    CBI 1st Round
2008–2009       18–14    8–10    10th    
2009–2010       19–16    7–11    11th    NIT 2nd Round
2010–2011    26–9    11–7    6th    NCAA Round of 32

C.
2008–2009       6–25    1–17    11th    
2009–2010       10–21    4–14    T–9th    
2010–2011        12–20    3–15    11th    
2011–2012        27–9    11–7    5th    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2012–2013        25–5    13–4

D.
1986–87       9–19    3–13    T–8th    
1987–88       20–14    4–12    9th    NIT Champions
1988–89       18–13    6–10    T–7th    NIT Quarterfinals
1989–90       31–6    12–4    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight
1990–91        20–11    9–7    3rd

E.
2001–2002       19–13    7–9    5th    NIT Quarterfinals
2002–2003       15–16    8–8    T–3rd    NIT 1st Round
2003–2004        18–17    6–10    11th    NIT Quarterfinals
2004–2005       24–8    11–5    T–3rd    NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005–2006        28–5    14–2    T–1st    NCAA Elite Eight

I could list more examples, but the takeaway I have from the above is that turnarounds, even for programs with good histories, take time.  Generally, years 4 and 5 are where you see the surge forward and year 3 is often a step back.

A. Coach K, Duke
B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

How dare you bring facts to the discussion.....

The only problem with the above is that in those cases there were reasons why it was going to take some time to get talent into the programs. To Lavin's credit he has already brought in talent. I think the problem people are having is what he is doing with the talent. I will say it again, if I had to bet I say Lavin starts getting us into the tourney close to every year. The issue is I do believe a better game coach would have been able to get 2 or 3 more wins out of this year's team and had us close to being a tourney team.

B. Cronin, Cincy
C. Crean, Indiana
D. Calhoun, UConn
E. Wright, Nova

Here are the records of some recent SJ coaches

19-11
12-17
14-14
11-16

25-8
5-15
7-11
1-13


21-12
13-19
16-14

See a pattern there?

The only problem with the above is that in those cases there were reasons why it was going to take some time to get talent into the programs. To Lavin's credit he has already brought in talent. I think the problem people are having is what he is doing with the talent. I will say it again, if I had to bet I say Lavin starts getting us into the tourney close to every year. The issue is I do believe a better game coach would have been able to get 2 or 3 more wins out of this year's team and had us close to being a tourney team.

You raise a good point that every situation is different, but that includes the hand Lavin was dealt. I've not gone back to do the research, but I wonder if any of those coaches were faced with building a new team from scratch in year 2? I am certain that none of those coaches had to miss their second seasons entirely.

Over a 5 year period, I'd say that the issues each coach had to face should be overcome.

Quote from: desco80 on March 06, 2013, 03:40:38 PM

For all you guys who keep blindly apologizing for the staff... you should remember what you said in the fall.

Crgreen:  "I'm calling 24 wins, minimum,  barring injuries."
Simplyred: "I love cr's optimism.  I would go with 21 wins.  With Lavin back, and a full roster, I foresee an NCAA bid."
MCNPA: "22 wins and NCAA. "
Boo:  "20 wins. Most athletic team in the BE."
Redstorm212: "20 wins going into the tournament. 11-7 BE. "
Marillac: " I feel very confident this teams wins 23 and at least one NCAA tournament game.  "

As a reminder, the team has 16 wins.   And is below .500 in the conference.   

How can you blindly defend the staff when you all expected to be substantially better than this?  Should no one be accountable for results?

  Hey Desco, when have I blindly defended anyone on the staff?   Because i don't jump to attack after every loss?  Give me a break.  Because I realize that this is essentially year two of a rebuilding process that will take 4-5 year minimum?..

 Jeez.. some of you posters are too much...  geniuses, all of you..   Thanks for the research though...

 Seriously dude, that post is the definition of being a troll..

How is that being a troll?   Is it not relevant to what we're discussing right now?
Everybody's arguing over whether we have a right to be disappointed or if the staff deserves more slack.   I'm pointing out what a lot of you guys who are defending the staff expected when the season began.    (blindly defending was an exaggeration, no doubt)

We might disagree, but it really is shades of gray Boo.   I know you aren't happy with the losing either, and I absolutely want coach Lavin here as long as possible too.   

 True.. In September I predicted 20 wins. In September I also assumed Sanchez would be a part of the team.  I did not predict losses to Ashville and San Fran, but i'm sure everyone else did..

 So here we are, 16 wins into the season with 2 games left.  Prediction was WAY off...

 I also said we were the most athletic team in the BE. Was I wrong there also? I think almost every broadcaster that did our games this year alluded to the fact that we might be the most athletic team in the country.

 So , yeah, I really don't get what your trying to say.  My prediction for wins in Sept, when everyone is as optimistic as can be,  is off by a few games.  So what?  That means that there is someone that needs to take the blame for that? 

  I can be critical of the staff just like everyone else. I think Lavin has made some bad decisions on the court and I don't agree with everything he's done.  Where we differ is I'm not going to come on here after every poor performance and whine about the same crap.  It is what it is.

 Lavin is in his 2nd full season of coaching this group.  I didn't expect returns until year 4-5, like most reasonable people. If next year unfolds the same way, I'll be right here with you...calling out the idiots who dare predict a decent season that didn't come to fruition.

Quote-I can be critical of the staff just like everyone else. I think Lavin has made some bad decisions on the court and I don't agree with everything he's done.  Where we differ is I'm not going to come on here after every poor performance and whine about the same crap.  It is what it is.-BOO


If you are prone to complain you would have to after every game becuase it is usually the same things everyone is complaining about. The offense, Phil Greene, sub patterns, not playing French people, circle dribbling, etc

 Lavin will be on Boomer and Carton friday morning at 9:25

For all you guys who keep blindly apologizing for the staff... you should remember what you said in the fall.

Crgreen:  "I'm calling 24 wins, minimum,  barring injuries."
Simplyred: "I love cr's optimism.  I would go with 21 wins.  With Lavin back, and a full roster, I foresee an NCAA bid."
MCNPA: "22 wins and NCAA. "
Boo:  "20 wins. Most athletic team in the BE."
Redstorm212: "20 wins going into the tournament. 11-7 BE. "
Marillac: " I feel very confident this teams wins 23 and at least one NCAA tournament game.  "

As a reminder, the team has 16 wins.   And is below .500 in the conference.   

How can you blindly defend the staff when you all expected to be substantially better than this?  Should no one be accountable for results?

Asheville, San Fran, Nova and Rutgers-1, plus one in the BET.  I'm disappointed,  but as another poster mentioned, those predictions were based an having Sanchez.  I'm disappointed in the blown leads and blowouts too.  Still, I see progress and expect things to continue to improve.

If we only lose Harrison next year I think we sneak into the NCAA. Personally I am fine with that. However if Sampson does something stupid and declares, and we lose Harrison we will stink. I do not like that direction at all!

Maybe I'm underestimating the skill level of Sanchez and the step forward Sampson & Obekpa will make in their sophomore seasons, but I still think it's going to be difficult to get to the NCAA Tournament w/ that backcourt.  Yes, I do think Branch will be the eventual answer at the PG position.  But if you don't have 1 shooter on the floor to stretch the defense out (which Greene and Bourgault have shown they are incapable of doing so far), it's not going to be pretty.

For all you guys who keep blindly apologizing for the staff... you should remember what you said in the fall.

Crgreen:  "I'm calling 24 wins, minimum,  barring injuries."
Simplyred: "I love cr's optimism.  I would go with 21 wins.  With Lavin back, and a full roster, I foresee an NCAA bid."
MCNPA: "22 wins and NCAA. "
Boo:  "20 wins. Most athletic team in the BE."
Redstorm212: "20 wins going into the tournament. 11-7 BE. "
Marillac: " I feel very confident this teams wins 23 and at least one NCAA tournament game.  "

As a reminder, the team has 16 wins.   And is below .500 in the conference.   

How can you blindly defend the staff when you all expected to be substantially better than this?  Should no one be accountable for results?

Please stop saying "blindly defend the staff." Do you want to know why I support the staff? Because Lavin got St. john's their first trip to the tournament in over a decade. He made St. John's an attractive destination for top players across the country. I predicted 20 wins (11-7) thinking we had Sanchez. I have already admitted I am disappointed in this season, but I'm not going to bitch about everything like a lot of people on this board and the claim the program is going in the wrong direction. That's just silly. Clearly, we are on the up and up. The season we had this year with Freshman and Sophomores was better than any season under Norm. And it was STILL a disappointing season. We've seen what Lavin can do recruiting and with experienced players, and I am still very excited for the future, I'm sorry if you guys don't see it.

Quote from: desco80 on March 06, 2013, 03:40:38 PM

For all you guys who keep blindly apologizing for the staff... you should remember what you said in the fall.

Please stop saying "blindly defend the staff." Do you want to know why I support the staff? Because Lavin got St. john's their first trip to the tournament in over a decade. He made St. John's an attractive destination for top players across the country. I predicted 20 wins (11-7) thinking we had Sanchez. I have already admitted I am disappointed in this season, but I'm not going to bitch about everything like a lot of people on this board and the claim the program is going in the wrong direction. That's just silly. Clearly, we are on the up and up. The season we had this year with Freshman and Sophomores was better than any season under Norm. And it was STILL a disappointing season. We've seen what Lavin can do recruiting and with experienced players, and I am still very excited for the future, I'm sorry if you guys don't see it.

What he said

We are fans with high expectations.  However, we all knew that not a single expert picked this years team to finish higher than where they will wind up.  Four point dogs against a team on the last day of the BE season that could be the number one seed in the BE is miles ahead for this program

These boards don't have blind loyalists.   They just have loads of whiners.

The title of this thread is pretty much sums it up.