Progress

The only progress I see is that we get higher rates recruits and one trip to the NCAA tourney (with Norms guys) and Dunlap running the gameplan.

NOpe.  Just a realist ex SJU fan.

This just shows that the interchangeable parts strategy employed by lavin does not work when A) Few of the parts can shoot (if that) and B) None of those parts were mcd aa caliber (like he got at ucla).

Given that, if you had guys that gave max effort, were unselfish, and pressed/played suffocating d, it could work (see lavs first year w norms players).

Its like we are trying to make a pizza with only the cheese.  No matter how many ways you make the cheese, it aint gonna turn into a pizza without the dough or the sauce. But we could turn this into a pretty darn good fondue if we just changed the recipe...

Sorry this is nonsense. There is more than enough talent on this roster to be competitive in the BE. Yesterday's showing had nothing to do with McDonald's, pizza, or any other fast food. 

You want a pizza analogy, here it is. Lavin's all dressed up in his sweat suit and his pink sneakers and his chef hat and he's got his dough and his sauce and his cheese and his pepperoni and his green peppers and his onions and his anchovies. First thing he decides that pizza should be shaped like a triangle, so he puts on his Jenny McCarthy glasses and kneads the dough into a nice isosceles shape. Then he has a premonition that the pepperoni is full of maggots, so he throws that out and substitutes lox. Then he suspends his sauce for rolling its eyes and substitutes grape jelly and then instead of mozzarella he uses cottage cheese and then instead of using a few anchovies to give the whole thing a nice zing he instead adds the salty tears that he's shed over the death of his late father, Al "Capicola" Lavin, a sandwich maker who died prematurely at the age of 106 ten years earlier. Then he pops the whole thing into a crock pot and leaves it to simmer for 8 hours while he goes antique shopping with his wife and does kegel exercises. And then afterwards when he's asked why his pizza didn't taste very good he says it's because he didn't use enough grape jelly.

Didn't age the cheese enough....but it might be ready by Feb....prob late Feb or March.....before that maybe half the pizza might be ready

If I didn't know the history of Lavins recruited classes I might agree with you but consider this......
Pointer, Sampson, Dlo and Jordan were all consensus top 50 high school players by all the major recruiting sites.  Branch was rated between 50 and 60, Gift and Sanchez were Juco All Americans and CO was very highly recruited.  If one or even two of these players didn't pan out, and that could happen, but this group as a whole being down by almost 30 points to a mediocre Georgetown team in the first half, that's not un talented players that's a breakdown in the entire organization.  Ask yourself these two questions.

1. What other team with this much talent/experience has such miserable results?
2.  If your own son was a HS All American with a shot to play at the next level, even as a die hard St. John's fan,  would you send him  to St. John's to play for Steve Lavin?

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 04, 2014, 06:22:09 PM

This just shows that the interchangeable parts strategy employed by lavin does not work when A) Few of the parts can shoot (if that) and B) None of those parts were mcd aa caliber (like he got at ucla).

Given that, if you had guys that gave max effort, were unselfish, and pressed/played suffocating d, it could work (see lavs first year w norms players).

Its like we are trying to make a pizza with only the cheese.  No matter how many ways you make the cheese, it aint gonna turn into a pizza without the dough or the sauce. But we could turn this into a pretty darn good fondue if we just changed the recipe...

Sorry this is nonsense. There is more than enough talent on this roster to be competitive in the BE. Yesterday's showing had nothing to do with McDonald's, pizza, or any other fast food. 

You want a pizza analogy, here it is. Lavin's all dressed up in his sweat suit and his pink sneakers and his chef hat and he's got his dough and his sauce and his cheese and his pepperoni and his green peppers and his onions and his anchovies. First thing he decides that pizza should be shaped like a triangle, so he puts on his Jenny McCarthy glasses and kneads the dough into a nice isosceles shape. Then he has a premonition that the pepperoni is full of maggots, so he throws that out and substitutes lox. Then he suspends his sauce for rolling its eyes and substitutes grape jelly and then instead of mozzarella he uses cottage cheese and then instead of using a few anchovies to give the whole thing a nice zing he instead adds the salty tears that he's shed over the death of his late father, Al "Capicola" Lavin, a sandwich maker who died prematurely at the age of 106 ten years earlier. Then he pops the whole thing into a crock pot and leaves it to simmer for 8 hours while he goes antique shopping with his wife and does kegel exercises. And then afterwards when he's asked why his pizza didn't taste very good he says it's because he didn't use enough grape jelly.

You dont get it. We can be ncaa but we need a new recipe/strategy that plays to our strengths.

If I didn't know the history of Lavins recruited classes I might agree with you but consider this......
Pointer, Sampson, Dlo and Jordan were all consensus top 50 high school players by all the major recruiting sites.  Branch was rated between 50 and 60, Gift and Sanchez were Juco All Americans and CO was very highly recruited.  If one or even two of these players didn't pan out, and that could happen, but this group as a whole being down by almost 30 points to a mediocre Georgetown team in the first half, that's not un talented players that's a breakdown in the entire organization.  Ask yourself these two questions.

1. What other team with this much talent/experience has such miserable results?
2.  If your own son was a HS All American with a shot to play at the next level, even as a die hard St. John's fan,  would you send him  to St. John's to play for Steve Lavin?

Don't be negative! There are still a few Yes Men out there who will find your post very offensive!

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 04, 2014, 11:59:59 AM

In game coaching needs a massive upgrade

Could you tell us what strategy you have heard Lavin informed his players during the game that would suggest that? How many of us actually know what "in game coaching" is going on to say it needs an upgrade?

Lineups and timeout usage. Not in game coaching strategy that can be critiqued?

Quote from: Tha Kid on January 04, 2014, 06:22:09 PM

This just shows that the interchangeable parts strategy employed by lavin does not work when A) Few of the parts can shoot (if that) and B) None of those parts were mcd aa caliber (like he got at ucla).

Given that, if you had guys that gave max effort, were unselfish, and pressed/played suffocating d, it could work (see lavs first year w norms players).

Its like we are trying to make a pizza with only the cheese.  No matter how many ways you make the cheese, it aint gonna turn into a pizza without the dough or the sauce. But we could turn this into a pretty darn good fondue if we just changed the recipe...

Sorry this is nonsense. There is more than enough talent on this roster to be competitive in the BE. Yesterday's showing had nothing to do with McDonald's, pizza, or any other fast food. 

You want a pizza analogy, here it is. Lavin's all dressed up in his sweat suit and his pink sneakers and his chef hat and he's got his dough and his sauce and his cheese and his pepperoni and his green peppers and his onions and his anchovies. First thing he decides that pizza should be shaped like a triangle, so he puts on his Jenny McCarthy glasses and kneads the dough into a nice isosceles shape. Then he has a premonition that the pepperoni is full of maggots, so he throws that out and substitutes lox. Then he suspends his sauce for rolling its eyes and substitutes grape jelly and then instead of mozzarella he uses cottage cheese and then instead of using a few anchovies to give the whole thing a nice zing he instead adds the salty tears that he's shed over the death of his late father, Al "Capicola" Lavin, a sandwich maker who died prematurely at the age of 106 ten years earlier. Then he pops the whole thing into a crock pot and leaves it to simmer for 8 hours while he goes antique shopping with his wife and does kegel exercises. And then afterwards when he's asked why his pizza didn't taste very good he says it's because he didn't use enough grape jelly.

That's funny.  I'm going to watch food network.

Quote from: SJUFAN on January 04, 2014, 12:16:18 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on January 04, 2014, 11:59:59 AM

In game coaching needs a massive upgrade

Could you tell us what strategy you have heard Lavin informed his players during the game that would suggest that? How many of us actually know what "in game coaching" is going on to say it needs an upgrade?

Lineups and timeout usage. Not in game coaching strategy that can be critiqued?

I don't agree with the way he uses his timouts, and the lineups he has thrown together. Not saying he is John Wooden, he does make some head scratching moves. But to say he is completely inept because of a few bad coaching decisions in our opinion does not define his overall coaching ability.

Because he takes a poorly timed timeout in our opinion doesn't mean he can't draw up an appropriate out of bounds play. Because the team fails to execute in a half court set for whatever reason doesn't mean we don't have an offense. If the team played like we did when we played Fordham no one would be saying the team is not prepared or that he's not a good in game coach. We are running the same thing. The only difference between the Fordham game and the GT game is they made shots we didn't. It wasn't GT magical offense that lead to their guard scoring 31 pts. He just made shots. If our guys did the same then its a different story.

Its really difficult for me to see the glaring deficiencies in our team and then point to the coaching when other teams force us to play to our weaknesses. My only complaint is the coach should have installed a diamond press in the off season. GT full court zone press reminded me of our zone press Lavin's first year and the success it had. That was Dunlap's doing however, and it left when he did.

The team looked terrified and their shooting reflected it. Teams take on the personality of the coach and the starting lineup made about as much sense as Lavin does.  JT3 can coach and Steve should send him a case of booze for calling off the dogs. Unfortunately a lot of people saw it and the Laughingstock thing is back in force.  At least Norm worked cheap.....

The team looked terrified and their shooting reflected it. Teams take on the personality of the coach and the starting lineup made about as much sense as Lavin does.  JT3 can coach and Steve should send him a case of booze for calling off the dogs. Unfortunately a lot of people saw it and the Laughingstock thing is back in force.  At least Norm worked cheap.....

JT3 called off the dogs?  I saw them pressing deep into the 2nd half.  But don't let facts get in the way of patented Bobre shot.

If I didn't know the history of Lavins recruited classes I might agree with you but consider this......
Pointer, Sampson, Dlo and Jordan were all consensus top 50 high school players by all the major recruiting sites.  Branch was rated between 50 and 60, Gift and Sanchez were Juco All Americans and CO was very highly recruited.  If one or even two of these players didn't pan out, and that could happen, but this group as a whole being down by almost 30 points to a mediocre Georgetown team in the first half, that's not un talented players that's a breakdown in the entire organization.  Ask yourself these two questions.

1. What other team with this much talent/experience has such miserable results?
2.  If your own son was a HS All American with a shot to play at the next level, even as a die hard St. John's fan,  would you send him  to St. John's to play for Steve Lavin?

Yes, we know yesterday was a very bad loss. We all saw the game.

If my son was a HS AA, and I was choosing a coach to help him get to the next level, I'd be interested that coach's track record regarding developing talent. Overall record and success of the team wouldn't really matter much to me, because as you stayed, I'm looking for a coach to get my kid to the next level.

So far, of the players Lavin has brought into STJ, how many have made the next level? I count one NBA player. One player, who wasn't a McDonald's AA, yet still was drafted into the league as though he was one. How many came in with legit NBA aspirations only to fade away? I count zero that were Lavin's fault.

You also asked what other team with this much talent/experience has miserable results? Start with 94-95, 95-96, 96-97, 01-02, 03-04, and you can also point to the 06-07 team that had seniors, and several top 100 recruits on it's roster.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on January 05, 2014, 09:18:25 AM

If I didn't know the history of Lavins recruited classes I might agree with you but consider this......
Pointer, Sampson, Dlo and Jordan were all consensus top 50 high school players by all the major recruiting sites.  Branch was rated between 50 and 60, Gift and Sanchez were Juco All Americans and CO was very highly recruited.  If one or even two of these players didn't pan out, and that could happen, but this group as a whole being down by almost 30 points to a mediocre Georgetown team in the first half, that's not un talented players that's a breakdown in the entire organization.  Ask yourself these two questions.

1. What other team with this much talent/experience has such miserable results?
2.  If your own son was a HS All American with a shot to play at the next level, even as a die hard St. John's fan,  would you send him  to St. John's to play for Steve Lavin?

Yes, we know yesterday was a very bad loss. We all saw the game.

If my son was a HS AA, and I was choosing a coach to help him get to the next level, I'd be interested that coach's track record regarding developing talent. Overall record and success of the team wouldn't really matter much to me, because as you stayed, I'm looking for a coach to get my kid to the next level.

So far, of the players Lavin has brought into STJ, how many have made the next level? I count one NBA player. One player, who wasn't a McDonald's AA, yet still was drafted into the league as though he was one. How many came in with legit NBA aspirations only to fade away? I count zero that were Lavin's fault.

You also asked what other team with this much talent/experience has miserable results? Start with 94-95, 95-96, 96-97, 01-02, 03-04, and you can also point to the 06-07 team that had seniors, and several top 100 recruits on it's roster.

In reality, Lavin had realy nothing to do with Mo Harkless as you may recall it was Dunlap who coached him while Lavin was out on the recruiting trail. How many of Lavins players have improved?  CO has no offensive game, Dlo while naturing off the court, still makes bad decisions, takes bad shots and 3 years on the team still is not fully aware of what his role is.  Pointer was ranked 25th in HS nationally by several lists and has he improved?  Branch has regressed, and look at Sampson who I believe did have pro potential as cited by pro scouts earlier in the season, has he progressed?

In terms of other teams with this much talent I was talking about current NCAA teams, but no St. John's team other then the Mullin Berry team of the early 80s and the Sealyham Werdan team even came close to such talent ( at least in the HS rankings with 4 top 50 players ) that the present team has.

Quote from: Poison on January 05, 2014, 03:17:12 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on January 05, 2014, 09:18:25 AM

If I didn't know the history of Lavins recruited classes I might agree with you but consider this......
Pointer, Sampson, Dlo and Jordan were all consensus top 50 high school players by all the major recruiting sites.  Branch was rated between 50 and 60, Gift and Sanchez were Juco All Americans and CO was very highly recruited.  If one or even two of these players didn't pan out, and that could happen, but this group as a whole being down by almost 30 points to a mediocre Georgetown team in the first half, that's not un talented players that's a breakdown in the entire organization.  Ask yourself these two questions.

1. What other team with this much talent/experience has such miserable results?
2.  If your own son was a HS All American with a shot to play at the next level, even as a die hard St. John's fan,  would you send him  to St. John's to play for Steve Lavin?

Yes, we know yesterday was a very bad loss. We all saw the game.

If my son was a HS AA, and I was choosing a coach to help him get to the next level, I'd be interested that coach's track record regarding developing talent. Overall record and success of the team wouldn't really matter much to me, because as you stayed, I'm looking for a coach to get my kid to the next level.

So far, of the players Lavin has brought into STJ, how many have made the next level? I count one NBA player. One player, who wasn't a McDonald's AA, yet still was drafted into the league as though he was one. How many came in with legit NBA aspirations only to fade away? I count zero that were Lavin's fault.

You also asked what other team with this much talent/experience has miserable results? Start with 94-95, 95-96, 96-97, 01-02, 03-04, and you can also point to the 06-07 team that had seniors, and several top 100 recruits on it's roster.

In reality, Lavin had realy nothing to do with Mo Harkless as you may recall it was Dunlap who coached him while Lavin was out on the recruiting trail. How many of Lavins players have improved?  CO has no offensive game, Dlo while naturing off the court, still makes bad decisions, takes bad shots and 3 years on the team still is not fully aware of what his role is.  Pointer was ranked 25th in HS nationally by several lists and has he improved?  Branch has regressed, and look at Sampson who I believe did have pro potential as cited by pro scouts earlier in the season, has he progressed?

In terms of other teams with this much talent I was talking about current NCAA teams, but no St. John's team other then the Mullin Berry team of the early 80s and the Sealyham Werdan team even came close to such talent ( at least in the HS rankings with 4 top 50 players ) that the present team has.

Wouldn't some of that blame have fall on the assistants though? I mean Hines came in with the reputation as a great developmental guy assuming that's his responsibility

BINGO Redstorm80!

Quote from: HowCouldUBeSoHarkless on January 04, 2014, 02:43:36 PM

The coaching staff has de-gressed

Why is it never the ability of the players? I'm not as high on the talent level as it appears many of you are. We cant shoot, dribble, pass, rebound, etc. One thing I would like to see is Lavin shorten the rotation. Play your best 8-9 players. The problem is too many of our players are one dimensional.

SJUFAN, I'm 100% in agreement with you that our players may not be as talented as advertised.  At the end of the day, the coach can only say so much ... it is the players that must execute. But where I do have issues with Lavin and his assistants is the glaring weaknesses in the fundamentals. On offense, I don't see our guys running plays (outside of standing around the perimeter). I don't see guys making the extra pass (especially JaKarr who is turning into the most selfish player on the court. I don't see guys fighting for rebounds ... hell, I don't even see them getting in a position to get them. I'll tell you what I do see. JaKarr and Orlando drifting out to the wings despite the fact neither of them are really good shooters. If I'm coach, I sit their ass down every time they put up an 18 foot jump shot because it is not their game.

On defense, I see a team that is particularly soft in the middle. Listen, you can't teach size and bulk. And let's be honest, Obekpa probably needs about 15 lbs. of muscle on him to be dominant down low. But for God's sake, where is in the intensity on defense. The only guys I consistently see man up out there are Dom, D'lo, and Rysheed. And not to beat a dead horse, but can somebody teach these guys to box out? I know blocks look better on the stat sheet, but the 2nd and 3rd looks are killing us.

Again, we can't make these kids significantly better shooters and we can't give them court vision, but our coaching staff should be able to drill fundamental skills into their heads. And if the players don't get the point, then you have them ride the pine until they do so.

Doody.............as far as riding the pine for under-performers..............could that be why he substitutes so freely, because the players do not comply with his wishes?  Is that part of the reason why Ndiaye played instead of Sampson?

could that be why he substitutes so freely, because the players do not comply with his wishes?  Is that part of the reason why Ndiaye played instead of Sampson?

Certainly that's what he wants you to think: that he's a visionary coach with undisciplined players who don't execute his brilliant strategies. He wants you to think he's Norman Dale, whereas in reality he's Jackie Moon.

He wants you to think he's Norman Dale, whereas in reality he's Jackie Moon.

This is brilliant.  You need to get a twitter.