A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.

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A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« on: January 12, 2014, 09:50:42 PM »
Will all of the issues going on with the team at this time, my concern are the many negative ramifications a disastrous season can create.  Aside from the most obvious, not making the NCAA tourney, there are some other issues looming that even the oat die hard fans and Lavin supporters just can't ignore.  All of the Koolade drinkers on this and other sites seem to want to ignore the down trend in recruiting. The often idiotic comment of "if there is one thing you can't say about Lavin, its that he can't recruit" well wake up everyone thats exactly what could happen if the season continues in a downward direction.  The real reason that Lavin has been able to bring in one player in the last TWO recruiting seasons is that many kids have taken on a wait and see approach with regards to Lavins coaching ability and ability to get them to the next level. While everyone likes to credit the signing of some players to the Hall with regards to their high school coaches, the reality is that word  on the street is that Willard is doing a much better job of coaching and developing talent then Mr. Lavin and that just is not a good thing. 

Lavin has got to turn this season around and quickly.  If he proceeds to lose to the likes of a Seton Hall, Providence or Depaul, it could be disastrous for the program.  High school players are well aware of what the Johnnies were supposed to accomplish this year and are even more aware that they are underachieving. If recruits stop coming, then what?  We have already seen that coach needs NBA level talent to have any success at all.  And don't think that Lavins "coach speak" which is a nice way of describing his BS, is fooling anyone especially potential recruits.  I was just talking with a friend of my son who plays for a big time AAU team who asked me what the problem was with St. John's this year as he thought they were supposed to be good.  I even said to him that they have had a tough schedule etc.  just to see his reaction and he stated, "maybe, but they are the ones who were supposed to be good". 

The next few games are most important to the future of this program.  If this team falls short against the weaker teams it could signify the demise of the program. I also happen to believe that if this should happen that Lavin will bolt as I believe that his ego is too big to deal with much losing.  That may come in the form of an excuse to get back to California of have to do with health issues.

I had high hopes with his hiring as his first recruiting class was phenomenal, but in his 4th year at the helm, I have come to the realization that things may just not get better under his regime.  I really hope I am wrong on this as I would love to see the Johnnies back in contention for a Big East championship but it would almost take a miraculous turn around to make it happen.

boo3

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2014, 09:56:50 PM »
 Let's wait to see what happens when the recruiting period concludes or during the spring signing period... Still MONTHS away. 

You can't say the 2014 or 2015 class is a disaster yet.. You can't.. they aren't close to being over yet.  Lavin's track record is good in recruiting.. Not Kool-Aid.. Fact.  He lands ranked talent.  He likely will again.  It is what he does.   You keep harping on this, why, I'm not sure.   Recruiting isn;t the issue.. The issue is developing talent and on court coaching..

 The last thing we need is ball players going to you when they ask questions about STJ...    Want to see a downturn in recruiting?    Jeez.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 09:57:22 PM by boo3 »

goredmen

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2014, 10:25:47 PM »
The lack of player development is the most troubling thing when it comes to future recruiting because most top players care about who can help get them to the NBA more than anything else. Lavin has brought in many highly ranked recruits and Harkless will be the last one to make it to the league (Sheed has the best chance of anybody on the current roster but only if he stays at least 3 years). If recruits don't pick up on this trend on their own then the competing coaches will drive it into them and make sure they know about Lavin's poor track record in this area

boo3

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2014, 10:30:29 PM »
The lack of player development is the most troubling thing when it comes to future recruiting because most top players care about who can help get them to the NBA more than anything else. Lavin has brought in many highly ranked recruits and Harkless will be the last one to make it to the league (Sheed has the best chance of anybody on the current roster but only if he stays at least 3 years). If recruits don't pick up on this trend on their own then the competing coaches will drive it into them and make sure they know about Lavin's poor track record in this area

  Thing is, his track record is very good in this regard.  Sure, other coaches will drive any recent failure down recruits throats, but one bad year or so, doesn't start a new trend.   Anyway, I agree with most of what you said, except the "poor track record " part
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 10:30:46 PM by boo3 »

goredmen

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2014, 10:45:45 PM »
The lack of player development is the most troubling thing when it comes to future recruiting because most top players care about who can help get them to the NBA more than anything else. Lavin has brought in many highly ranked recruits and Harkless will be the last one to make it to the league (Sheed has the best chance of anybody on the current roster but only if he stays at least 3 years). If recruits don't pick up on this trend on their own then the competing coaches will drive it into them and make sure they know about Lavin's poor track record in this area

  Thing is, his track record is very good in this regard.  Sure, other coaches will drive any recent failure down recruits throats, but one bad year or so, doesn't start a new trend.   Anyway, I agree with most of what you said, except the "poor track record " part

His track record at UCLA was good but here he's been horrible in that regard and no 17 or 18 year old remembers him at UCLA. Dom, Karr, Nuri, Sanchez and Obekpa have all had legitimate hopes to play in the NBA. Doesn't look like any of them will. These aren't isolated cases. It's a trend

Tiznow

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 11:41:56 PM »
Will all of the issues going on with the team at this time, my concern are the many negative ramifications a disastrous season can create.  Aside from the most obvious, not making the NCAA tourney, there are some other issues looming that even the oat die hard fans and Lavin supporters just can't ignore.  All of the Koolade drinkers on this and other sites seem to want to ignore the down trend in recruiting. The often idiotic comment of "if there is one thing you can't say about Lavin, its that he can't recruit" well wake up everyone thats exactly what could happen if the season continues in a downward direction.  The real reason that Lavin has been able to bring in one player in the last TWO recruiting seasons is that many kids have taken on a wait and see approach with regards to Lavins coaching ability and ability to get them to the next level. While everyone likes to credit the signing of some players to the Hall with regards to their high school coaches, the reality is that word  on the street is that Willard is doing a much better job of coaching and developing talent then Mr. Lavin and that just is not a good thing. 

Lavin has got to turn this season around and quickly.  If he proceeds to lose to the likes of a Seton Hall, Providence or Depaul, it could be disastrous for the program.  High school players are well aware of what the Johnnies were supposed to accomplish this year and are even more aware that they are underachieving. If recruits stop coming, then what?  We have already seen that coach needs NBA level talent to have any success at all.  And don't think that Lavins "coach speak" which is a nice way of describing his BS, is fooling anyone especially potential recruits.  I was just talking with a friend of my son who plays for a big time AAU team who asked me what the problem was with St. John's this year as he thought they were supposed to be good.  I even said to him that they have had a tough schedule etc.  just to see his reaction and he stated, "maybe, but they are the ones who were supposed to be good". 

The next few games are most important to the future of this program.  If this team falls short against the weaker teams it could signify the demise of the program. I also happen to believe that if this should happen that Lavin will bolt as I believe that his ego is too big to deal with much losing.  That may come in the form of an excuse to get back to California of have to do with health issues.

I had high hopes with his hiring as his first recruiting class was phenomenal, but in his 4th year at the helm, I have come to the realization that things may just not get better under his regime.  I really hope I am wrong on this as I would love to see the Johnnies back in contention for a Big East championship but it would almost take a miraculous turn around to make it happen.

Take a little Valium Linda

Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 12:06:04 AM »
Who has Jay Wright put into the league since Lavin has been here?

goredmen

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2014, 12:24:46 AM »
Who has Jay Wright put into the league since Lavin has been here?

None but Jay Wright doesn't need a roster stacked with NBA players to win. He recruits guys that fit his system, plays to their strengths and develops them into solid college players. Lavin does none of that

boo3

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2014, 12:30:53 AM »
Lavins first recruiting  class are juniors.  How many should he have in NBA?  He has one already . Some of you are missing the boat completely. 

Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2014, 12:36:47 AM »
Who has Jay Wright put into the league since Lavin has been here?

None but Jay Wright doesn't need a roster stacked with NBA players to win. He recruits guys that fit his system, plays to their strengths and develops them into solid college players. Lavin does none of that

The point being made was that not putting kids in the NBA will make it impossible to recruit.  My point is it hasn't hurt Jay Wright (and many others) in terms of recruiting.  I wasn't discussing coaching ability.

Marillac

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2014, 12:37:14 AM »
Lavins first recruiting  class are juniors.  How many should he have in NBA?  He has one already . Some of you are missing the boat completely. 

Preach.

goredmen

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2014, 12:40:27 AM »
Lavins first recruiting  class are juniors.  How many should he have in NBA?  He has one already . Some of you are missing the boat completely. 

I'm not saying he should have multiple guys playing in the NBA right now. I am saying that there is nobody on this roster outside of Rysheed that has a chance of making it despite the fact that it was a possibility for most of them when they enrolled here

goredmen

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2014, 12:57:25 AM »
Who has Jay Wright put into the league since Lavin has been here?

None but Jay Wright doesn't need a roster stacked with NBA players to win. He recruits guys that fit his system, plays to their strengths and develops them into solid college players. Lavin does none of that

The point being made was that not putting kids in the NBA will make it impossible to recruit.  My point is it hasn't hurt Jay Wright (and many others) in terms of recruiting.  I wasn't discussing coaching ability.

Its hard for coaches to knock Wright for the lack of guys he's sent to the NBA recently because pretty much every player that goes to Villanova reaches their full potential as players while there. He has had a bunch of guys who no matter how good they were in college couldn't crack it in the NBA due to lack of size or athleticism (Reynolds, Nardi, Sumpter etc.) and that's not on Wright.

pmg911

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2014, 08:20:47 AM »
Who has Jay Wright put into the league since Lavin has been here?

Who cares - Jay Wright is not using his track record of getting players into the NBA as a recruiting tool. Jay Wright and his roster of non-NBA players are currently ranked #8 in America.

Poison

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 08:25:19 AM »
Who has Jay Wright put into the league since Lavin has been here?

Randy Foye. And that's it.

Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2014, 08:58:15 AM »
We don't have enough shooters. Harrison is a volume scorer and Jordan is a penetrator. No one on the roster can consistently knock down shots. That is the problem and has been for the last 3 years. Lavin is a great recruiter but he is recruiting athletes that caan't shoot and supposed shooters who are terrible athletes. He needs to recruit guys going forward who can at least knock down a shot from three once in awhile.

Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2014, 09:18:09 AM »
I hope Lavin gets the next Bradley Beal.  Would be nice!

SJUFAN

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2014, 09:42:31 AM »
Lavins first recruiting  class are juniors.  How many should he have in NBA?  He has one already . Some of you are missing the boat completely. 

I'm not saying he should have multiple guys playing in the NBA right now. I am saying that there is nobody on this roster outside of Rysheed that has a chance of making it despite the fact that it was a possibility for most of them when they enrolled here

Them enrolling here made it a possibility for most of them. Sampson and Obekpa are still only 15 games into there sophomore season. I think both of those players will be beasts there senior year.   

Tiznow

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Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2014, 10:18:54 AM »
Lavins first recruiting  class are juniors.  How many should he have in NBA?  He has one already . Some of you are missing the boat completely. 

I'm not saying he should have multiple guys playing in the NBA right now. I am saying that there is nobody on this roster outside of Rysheed that has a chance of making it despite the fact that it was a possibility for most of them when they enrolled here

Possibility is the key word - none of these players were top ten.  Lavin has been fortunate enough to have a lot of NBA players come from his programs with Mo (top 40 coming in) going earlier than projected.  Putting players into the NBA is not one of the knocks you can place on Lavin.

Re: A bad season can be disastrous on many levels.
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2014, 10:27:44 AM »
Lavins first recruiting  class are juniors.  How many should he have in NBA?  He has one already . Some of you are missing the boat completely. 

I'm not saying he should have multiple guys playing in the NBA right now. I am saying that there is nobody on this roster outside of Rysheed that has a chance of making it despite the fact that it was a possibility for most of them when they enrolled here

Them enrolling here made it a possibility for most of them. Sampson and Obekpa are still only 15 games into there sophomore season. I think both of those players will be beasts there senior year.   
Is that in March of their senor year?