I am giving Lavin at least one more season.

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I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« on: January 22, 2014, 02:39:57 PM »
I know I will probably be killed for this post as it is not calling for Lavin's head. But I am hopeful there are others who feel the same way. Lavin's tenure here has been disappointing, no doubt about it. He himself said this was the year we'd make noise. He has proven himself full of hot air many times in his time here. He has also made many questionable coaching decisions. I understand 0-5 after two losing seasons will make some call for him being fired.

Lavin's roster construction can also be called into question. No team leader, too many athletic players who can't shoot or dribble.

With all of that said, here is my argument for why I am going to support him for at least one more season:

1.) Lavin was asked to replace 9 seniors his first year here. He was not given the luxury of picking and choosing players for his system (What his system is exactly has yet to be seen). He just knew he needed players. So, he probably and understandably took risks on some players (Garrett, Sampson, Pelle being the main ones.) He, as well as many here thought Dom would develop more at this point and would be a better player than what he has become. He probably thought he'd have Harkless for at least 2-3 seasons. This 2011 class, while talented, had no players with high Bball IQ's. Now you can say this is on Lavin, and that is fair, but he also needed to replace 9 players and gambled a bit. Now that we have a more balanced roster construction, meaning we don't have 9 players graduating at once, I am willing to give Lavin another chance at another big recruiting class, this time being 2015.

2.) His success at UCLA cannot be ignored. You can say he sucks as a game coach. You can say he's full of hot air. Say whatever you want about him. The guy won consistently at UCLA. So I can't understand why posters are saying he can never win here. He's done it already in year one with even lower tier talent (Norm's players). And he did it consistently at UCLA. I do think he needs a tactician like Dunlap, but that is not impossible to get. No one was questioning Lavin's coaching when we made the tourney. Questioning coaching decisions is a result of losing. Any coach who loses is going to have his every decision placed under a microscope. I don't agree with many decisions Lavin has made. But I understand that every coach who has back to back poor seasons is going to have his every move criticized just as badly as Lavin's are now. 

3.) When Lavin was hired here, how many top 100 recruits would you have guessed he would've had at this point? My guess would have been somewhere in the 2-4 range. Maybe one per class if we're lucky, which would've been much better than Norm, and in the shape the program was in would have been an achievement. I don't think there was any other coach outside of a big name that could have done the job recruiting that Lavin has done. Now, obviously he didn't do a good job picking the right players, but being able to recruit high ranked recruits and get them to commit is an irreplaceable asset that Lavin gives us.  I fear that if we lose Lavin, we will not be able to recruit even close to the level we are now. We will probably recruit a little better than we did under Norm. Which means, maybe a top 100 every other year or so. I don't want that.

4.) I don't think starting over again is the answer. Switching coaches every 5 years is just not smart. You have to give a coach time to build a program, and that sometimes takes longer than 5 years. With Norm, it was different as he was about to have 9 seniors graduate with no sign of sniffing the tournament. That and no sign of recruiting any better.

So, I guess the simplified reason I am going to give Lavin more time is that I am willing to call his first batch of players a failed experiment, and am going to let him recruit a new batch in 2015 and see how next season goes. Obviously, if we have a complete bomb of a season next year as well, my mind may change. I admit the confidence I once had in Lavin is gone, but I am still hopeful he can be successful here.  I think we are better off sticking with Lavin, than hiring an up and comer. If we hire an up and comer in a BE that is not close to what it used to be, we may be signing up as a mid-major.

 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 02:41:01 PM by redstorm212 »

desco80

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2014, 02:52:52 PM »
I do not think that is crazy 212.
Obviously, I disagree with you.  I think making a change now could lead to a pretty good season from next year's team, and still gives us a chance to land the '2015 recruits we're targeting. 
Also, I feel the level of bs around the program is at a suffocating level.   For that reason alone it will be a breath of fresh air to bring in someone new.   I'd love to hear a coach be honest and say " CO is getting his minutes cut down the stretch because he's not playing great man to man defense on opposing bigs, and until he starts doing that I can't warrant playing him late in the game."

But I do not think giving Lavin one more season is entirely outrageous.   Partly because I don't have full information.
Is he truly being lazy on the recruiting front?  I don't know for sure.   There are rumors, and facts that suggest he is.
Has he truly lost the team?  Again, I don't know for sure.   There are rumors nearly every player is unhappy, has been disgruntled, and could transfer.   

But the only people who really know that are those close to the team.   If Monasch knows them to be true, he needs to make a move after the season.
But if those things are just rumor, and we're only making the decision because Lavin is a crappy in-game coach ... then I could see why reasonable people might give him another season.   
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 03:38:11 PM by desco80 »

goredmen

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2014, 03:02:53 PM »
I know I will probably be killed for this post as it is not calling for Lavin's head. But I am hopeful there are others who feel the same way. Lavin's tenure here has been disappointing, no doubt about it. He himself said this was the year we'd make noise. He has proven himself full of hot air many times in his time here. He has also made many questionable coaching decisions. I understand 0-5 after two losing seasons will make some call for him being fired.

Lavin's roster construction can also be called into question. No team leader, too many athletic players who can't shoot or dribble.

With all of that said, here is my argument for why I am going to support him for at least one more season:

1.) Lavin was asked to replace 9 seniors his first year here. He was not given the luxury of picking and choosing players for his system (What his system is exactly has yet to be seen). He just knew he needed players. So, he probably and understandably took risks on some players (Garrett, Sampson, Pelle being the main ones.) He, as well as many here thought Dom would develop more at this point and would be a better player than what he has become. He probably thought he'd have Harkless for at least 2-3 seasons. This 2011 class, while talented, had no players with high Bball IQ's. Now you can say this is on Lavin, and that is fair, but he also needed to replace 9 players and gambled a bit. Now that we have a more balanced roster construction, meaning we don't have 9 players graduating at once, I am willing to give Lavin another chance at another big recruiting class, this time being 2015.

2.) His success at UCLA cannot be ignored. You can say he sucks as a game coach. You can say he's full of hot air. Say whatever you want about him. The guy won consistently at UCLA. So I can't understand why posters are saying he can never win here. He's done it already in year one with even lower tier talent (Norm's players). And he did it consistently at UCLA. I do think he needs a tactician like Dunlap, but that is not impossible to get. No one was questioning Lavin's coaching when we made the tourney. Questioning coaching decisions is a result of losing. Any coach who loses is going to have his every decision placed under a microscope. I don't agree with many decisions Lavin has made. But I understand that every coach who has back to back poor seasons is going to have his every move criticized just as badly as Lavin's are now. 

3.) When Lavin was hired here, how many top 100 recruits would you have guessed he would've had at this point? My guess would have been somewhere in the 2-4 range. Maybe one per class if we're lucky, which would've been much better than Norm, and in the shape the program was in would have been an achievement. I don't think there was any other coach outside of a big name that could have done the job recruiting that Lavin has done. Now, obviously he didn't do a good job picking the right players, but being able to recruit high ranked recruits and get them to commit is an irreplaceable asset that Lavin gives us.  I fear that if we lose Lavin, we will not be able to recruit even close to the level we are now. We will probably recruit a little better than we did under Norm. Which means, maybe a top 100 every other year or so. I don't want that.

4.) I don't think starting over again is the answer. Switching coaches every 5 years is just not smart. You have to give a coach time to build a program, and that sometimes takes longer than 5 years. With Norm, it was different as he was about to have 9 seniors graduate with no sign of sniffing the tournament. That and no sign of recruiting any better.

So, I guess the simplified reason I am going to give Lavin more time is that I am willing to call his first batch of players a failed experiment, and am going to let him recruit a new batch in 2015 and see how next season goes. Obviously, if we have a complete bomb of a season next year as well, my mind may change. I admit the confidence I once had in Lavin is gone, but I am still hopeful he can be successful here.  I think we are better off sticking with Lavin, than hiring an up and comer. If we hire an up and comer in a BE that is not close to what it used to be, we may be signing up as a mid-major.

 

Lavin underachieved at UCLA. Yes, he made multiple sweet 16s but that was with Final 4 talent. He will not pick up that kind of talent consistently here.

I dont care how many top 100 players he's brought in. Its useless if he doesnt win with them. Id rather win with 3 star players than lose with 4 and 5 star players.

There are a number of programs that succeed while be forced to find new coaches every 5 or so years. Its more destructive to keep a failing coach than it is to find a new one

boo3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2014, 03:31:13 PM »
 Good post 212..  I agree with most..  He has 2 more years to go on his contract... He is getting another year, so we will se how this turns out..  Lavin has created this mess, he deserves the chance to try and make it right..  Obviously, starting now.

 I am not in favor of the revolving door coaching carousel.  It doesn't work, imo... Apparently there are number of examples of it working.OK.

The problem is, 212,  that you will likely get attacked and called a Kool-aide drinker, because that fits with the narrative of certain folks.. It's best to let their own stupidity hang them. 

 In the end.. it's just a game, and college at that...   Maybe it's the apathy built up inside.. In reality, I actually don't care one way or another what happens after this season... It's been said a million times-  STJ doesn't have a president.. they aren't firing their highest paid employee and eating 2 years of a contract..  If the argument is that Steve will leave on his own accord, well,  we shall see.

 

TONYD3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2014, 04:09:43 PM »
Good post. This is one of the few positive posts about lavin that wouldn't make me mad. I don't agree with you. But I hope u are right . We are about to see what this guy is made of. If Lavin wants to stay we better win vs seton hall. 0-6 may upset some people. Gut check time coach

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2014, 04:11:14 PM »
We are all disappointed by the results this season. But talk of firing Lavin is both irresponsible and premature. Let's not forget that this job was offered to several  coaches--and it was turned down flat, even at the high salary the school was offering. Everyone knew Roberts had run the program into the ground. We had no palyers returning except Stith. None. Recruiting wise we were nowhere. For those who say it was easy to recruit nine players becase we could offer playing time, realize that was true of Roberts and Jarvis as well, when they first arrived. We were not exactly overwhelmed by their recruiting. And blue chip recruits knew they could walk in and start.  It was Lavin who brought us elite recruits and you can't deny him credit for that. Lavin made us relevant again, on tv and in the press. Before him most news stories had a mention or two of pay offs and strip clubs. Give him credit for that. Some say he should have recruited "better". True, he recruited these players, but he took what he could get. And when he got their commitments, we were all esthatic. Anyone know of a top 100 recruit who wanted to come here but was rejected by Lavin? Some blame him for lack of development? Really? Is it his fault Sampson did not put on weight? Or that some players did not develop a better shot? The world does not work that way. Weight  is dna driven, and some players never develop a better shot. Anyone remember when Rick Barry tried to teach Wilt how to hit foul shots? That did not work either. And even assuming the administration was not thrilled with the results this season,  let's look at  the financial and practical aspects of the problem.  Lavin probably has a 5 or 6 year rolling term contract, with the school having the right to buy him out at one year's salary.--say a few million bucks. Some of the assistants may or may not have buy outs as well. We have an interim President. Anyone here really think a lame duck President is going to make a long term decision that will cost the school 3m in an era of declining enrollment and incrasing costs? The coomon sense--and correct--approach would be to let the new President, once hired, chart the future of the program. And news flash, once a new President is on board, he will have  bigger problems to deal with than the basketball program. Anyone here think the heat from the fans will force Lavin to quit? He was under a lot more pressure at UCLA, and he did not quit there. All this clamor to fire Lavin only arms the enemies of this program, allows rival coackes to undermine Lavin, and discourages the players he is recruiting. He is not going to be fired. Deal with it, and cheer for the team. This negativity is useless except if you need to vent, and if you want to do that, do it in private where you won't needlessly undermine the program. For those of you who worry about recruiting, and "rumors" Lavin is not working it hard enough, have the good grace to recognize he has always recruited well, and wait for events to play out before criticizing him for what may or may not happen. Negative speculation does not advance our cause. And please  take the time to go back and look at the records of Lapchick and Louie. Two years before Lapchick won both the Hoilday Festival and the NIT, when those event meant someting, Lapchick's team had a losing record. Louie also had bad years. The players they recruited did not develop as they had projected. Did that make them bad coaches? I hate losing too, and at some point I too may believe Lavin has to go. But it is plain silly to think that will or should happen at this juncture.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2014, 04:31:22 PM »
I agree with this. Terrible season so far but lets see where it goes from here and if we "jell by February"

TONYD3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2014, 04:38:43 PM »
And if we don't jell?

boo3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2014, 04:44:24 PM »
And if we don't jell?

 Still gets next season...

desco80

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2014, 04:50:19 PM »
And if we don't jell?

 Still gets next season...

Whether he should or not we can discuss Boo, but I'm really not sure he will get another season if things don't improve Boo.
I think there's been a pretty dramatic shift in the mood among the people that matter in the program.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 04:53:05 PM by desco80 »

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2014, 04:55:31 PM »
Good post 212..  I agree with most..  He has 2 more years to go on his contract... He is getting another year, so we will se how this turns out..  Lavin has created this mess, he deserves the chance to try and make it right..  Obviously, starting now.

 I am not in favor of the revolving door coaching carousel.  It doesn't work, imo... Apparently there are number of examples of it working.OK.

The problem is, 212,  that you will likely get attacked and called a Kool-aide drinker, because that fits with the narrative of certain folks.. It's best to let their own stupidity hang them. 

 In the end.. it's just a game, and college at that...   Maybe it's the apathy built up inside.. In reality, I actually don't care one way or another what happens after this season... It's been said a million times-  STJ doesn't have a president.. they aren't firing their highest paid employee and eating 2 years of a contract..  If the argument is that Steve will leave on his own accord, well,  we shall see.

 

For argument sake, what if they go 3-15 in conference? What then?
I think even if Jordan and Obepka leave this is a tourney team next season. I say there is no way he leaves before next season.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 04:56:10 PM by we are sju »

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2014, 04:58:00 PM »
Title of this thread should read "I am giving Lavin at least one more game"

boo3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2014, 05:01:46 PM »
 Desco- who makes the final decision to fire him?  The no-existent school President?  Boosters... please.. This isn't Texas..

WASJU-  I think we actually agree. That is all I'm saying.. Guys can scream and cry all they want, unless he quits, which i doubt,  he will be back..

boo3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2014, 05:04:21 PM »
 Desco-  you think he is gone after this year?   Really?  Based on some rumors.  Maybe?  Again, who is making decision to pay him off to go away?  Is he giving up his 1.5 mil salary because a few fans are pissed?   He was coach of UCLA for crying out loud..  A little bit different in the expectations and abuse dept.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 05:09:31 PM »
Desco- who makes the final decision to fire him?  The no-existent school President?  Boosters... please.. This isn't Texas..

WASJU-  I think we actually agree. That is all I'm saying.. Guys can scream and cry all they want, unless he quits, which i doubt,  he will be back..

If I could gamble
Desco- who makes the final decision to fire him?  The no-existent school President?  Boosters... please.. This isn't Texas..

WASJU-  I think we actually agree. That is all I'm saying.. Guys can scream and cry all they want, unless he quits, which i doubt,  he will be back..




Obviously getting the carriage before the horse but just to throw out a hypothetical:
How would Lavin's tenure be perceived if he gets team to tourney and then bolts leaving cupboard bare for next guy?
He would have made 2 tourney's, 1 NIT and brought relevance back to program.
Would have to be considered next best coach to Louie if you want to forget what Jarvis accomplished.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 05:10:44 PM by we are sju »

paultzman

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2014, 05:20:40 PM »
Wild card to me is, if this season is a failure and he has daunting task of rebuilding after next season, will he want to be here? I disagree that this a Tourney team next year if we lose a Jordan or Obekpa as suggested above.

Lastly,  if he has alienated some folks of  influence,  what will his reaction be? Could he get an extension? Without an extension, how will 15 prospects look at him, especially if negative articles continue. Guess we will have to let this play out.

desco80

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2014, 05:24:58 PM »
Desco-  you think he is gone after this year?   Really?  Based on some rumors.  Maybe?  Again, who is making decision to pay him off to go away?  Is he giving up his 1.5 mil salary because a few fans are pissed?   He was coach of UCLA for crying out loud..  A little bit different in the expectations and abuse dept.

No question.   I think odds are he's back.  I'm just saying I don't think it's a guarantee anymore. 
A week ago, even though we were losing, I would've agreed that  there's no way SJU cuts bait without a new president in place etc.  It's just not their way of doing business.
But now I think there's at least a possibility that change comes one way or another.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2014, 05:25:09 PM »
I do not think that is crazy 212.
Obviously, I disagree with you.  I think making a change now could lead to a pretty good season from next year's team, and still gives us a chance to land the '2015 recruits we're targeting. 
Also, I feel the level of bs around the program is at a suffocating level.   For that reason alone it will be a breath of fresh air to bring in someone new.   I'd love to hear a coach be honest and say " CO is getting his minutes cut down the stretch because he's not playing great man to man defense on opposing bigs, and until he starts doing that I can't warrant playing him late in the game."

But I do not think giving Lavin one more season is entirely outrageous.   Partly because I don't have full information.
Is he truly being lazy on the recruiting front?  I don't know for sure.   There are rumors, and facts that suggest he is.
Has he truly lost the team?  Again, I don't know for sure.   There are rumors nearly every player is unhappy, has been disgruntled, and could transfer.   

But the only people who really know that are those close to the team.   If Monasch knows them to be true, he needs to make a move after the season.
But if those things are just rumor, and we're only making the decision because Lavin is a crappy in-game coach ... then I could see why reasonable people might give him another season.   

Great post Desco, summed up my feelings exactly about the "BS". I was very excited about where this program was going 3 months ago, and couldn't wait for games to begin in November. But it's all the BS that i'm getting sick of, weird lineups, guys missing games, guys being sent home, guys not playing down the stretch., yet each presser Lavin acts as though nothing is going on, the program is rosy, and basically the old "nothing to see here, move on".

I understand these things happen when your dealing with young adults, but call a spade a spade. The cloak of secrecy is just too much.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2014, 05:26:56 PM »
Wild card to me is, if this season is a failure and he has daunting task of rebuilding after next season, will he want to be here? I disagree that this a Tourney team next year if we lose a Jordan or Obekpa as suggested above.

Lastly,  if he has alienated some folks of  influence,  what will his reaction be? Could he get an extension? Without an extension, how will 15 prospects look at him, especially if negative articles continue. Guess we will have to let this play out.

If Harrison and Sampson are on the team, I think they follow the same pattern as Lavin's first team. Not saying they would be a lock but 20 and 7 seed seem realistic.Lopez and Hamilton finally got in as Seniors and so did Norm's guys.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 05:27:46 PM by we are sju »

CC

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2014, 05:29:49 PM »
Title of this thread should read "I am giving Lavin at least one more game"

Good b/c STJ is going to win tomorrow.