Real progress or a mirage?

What do you guys think?   I'm honestly not sure.   A part of me thinks the condensed rotations and the better ball movement are concrete improvements.  We have our best players on the floor now, and they're getting somewhat better scoring opportunities.

On the other hand, we all thought that stretch 2 weeks ago with Depaul and Providence were the "easy" part of the schedule, it turns out instead that SH and Butler may be the worst teams in the conference.   

What do you guys think?   I'm honestly not sure.   A part of me thinks the condensed rotations and the better ball movement are concrete improvements.  We have our best players on the floor now, and they're getting somewhat better scoring opportunities.

On the other hand, we all thought that stretch 2 weeks ago with Depaul and Providence were the "easy" part of the schedule, it turns out instead that SH and Butler may be the worst teams in the conference.   

I am not getting too excited about beating Butler. That said, winning on road is a positive that  hopefully translates to better results away from home. The combinations yesterday were effective and exciting for most part and capitalized on our strengths. If Branch plays consistently well and enables Jordan to do some nice things off the ball, good things can happen.  How Greene is reintegrated by Lavin is the million dollar question.

To me a key test is playing Creighton tough. If we lose, but play well, that will give the team a sense that they can become a decent road team. A blow out would obviously be counterproductive. We have dug a huge hole and to achieve reasonable success at this point, we will have to steal some away games and hold serve at home. Possible, but not probable IMO. However, to give us any chance, Lavin has to stick with the right combinations.

Off topic, as we all regret losing some close games, I find myself  regretting handing that game to Georgetown. Oh well, hopefully no more "teaching moments". Go Johnnies!

We'll have a much clearer picture at say 11 PM on Tuesday.

Not taking anything seriously until were back in the mix in the BE. Yesterday was the battle for not being in last placed. Feels good, obviously helps, but not taking it too seriously.

Looks like guys are settling into some roles and it is leading to some consistency. Still not there yet.

Key will be whether he is committed to using Branch and living with the inevitable turnover or two

What do you guys think?   

I think someone should feed Phil Greene raw chicken before every game.

I'm honestly not sure.   A part of me thinks the condensed rotations and the better ball movement are concrete improvements.  We have our best players on the floor now, and they're getting somewhat better scoring opportunities.

It is too soon to tell. As Section 9 From Outer Space notes, we'll know post Creighton. On the one hand, these teams we're beating stink. On the other, we expected we'd have a team capable of making the tournament. Now we have one (albeit it's probably too late to make the tournament now.) What was holding them back from reaching their potential? Lavin. What has happened in the interim? Lavin seems to have stopped sabotaging their chances by attempting strategy. It's not as good as having an actual X and O guy but it's the next best thing.

To piggy-back off of Fun's point about X's and O's ... I have a long but telling anecdote about what was different about yesterday's game plan.
There was a possession in the second half that I thought was remarkable because it was the sort of play we almost never see, let me explain:
Branch handed off to Jordan at the top of the key, he(branch) then cut down the lane, went right at the basket and curled back to the top of the key.   In the process, as he curled from the baseline back to the top of the key he went around two screens the first from Sampson the second from Gift.   As he got to the top of the key he had lost his man in the screens and Jordan passed him the ball as Branch then drove hard w/ the ball down the left side of the lane.    At this point there were several options
1) Branch could take it to the basket with his left hand, as we've seen he's capable of.
2) Harrison was on the left wing w feet set behind the arc and his man had started to collapse on Branch
3) Sampson had slid over to the right low block and was in position for a pass from Branch  if the defense collapsed, or a tip in off the opposite glass.

Harrison ended up missing a 3 if I remember correctly  but it was a play I rewound because it simply made so much sense .   It was clearly a designed set, not improvising"jazz", and it had 3 of our players in a position to do what they're most capable of.   
I don't know whether to credit Lavin, Whitesell, or the fact we finally had players capable of running that particular play on the court - but it was impressive. 

Believe it or not, Desco, I remember the play.  It stood out for me too.

I think the progress we have seen is that Phil Greene hasn't been playing point guard the last 2 games.  I want to emphasize the point guard part because I still think he can be effective giving us 10 minutes a game spelling either Branch,  Sheed and Harrison but only if he is on the court with either Branch or Sheed.

Wow, if one play stood out so much, maybe our offense really has sucked.  I think we moved away from last year's reverse motion offense (maybe a Whitesell influence) but we have resorted to one on one ball a lot more this year than in the past.  Hopefully, the offense is starting to click.

As far as whether it is real progress or a mirage, I think the first BE win really took some pressure off the guys.  They were so tense toward the end of the SH game but just managing to hold on has made things much easier going forward.  If they had blown that game, the season would have been over.

Believe it or not, Desco, I remember the play.  It stood out for me too.

I remember thinking "ok, if  our misses are coming like that then we're in good shape".  Because more often than not something good was coming out of that situation.   Even though it ended with a miss, it looked polished and well-executed.

Agree with the consensus opinion about baby steps, the quality of the competition, rotation and distribution of minutes and general cautious optimism.

I would add two thoughts. First, the ball movement and more unselfish play isn't as much the product of better plays or better execution. Its a mindset. Branch is the best example; his first inclination is to make a sweet pass on every play. Obviously it leads him to bad decisions every once in a while, but in my experience, its easier to take a kid like that and dial him back a bit than it is to teach a kid who's a me first player to play team ball. You can run all the great plays/offense you want, but in order to hit the open man, you have to actually be looking for him. That sounds ridiculously simplistic, but its something the team has sorely lacked, not only this year but for much of Lavins tenure with this group. There have been a few encouraging signs over the last few games that its starting to happen. Fingers crossed.

Second, as fundamentally sound as Creighton is, this might be the best kind of good team for us to play right now because we're so much more athletic. We beat Notre Dame even when they were playing well and were highly ranked for the same reason. Obviously we'll have to play smart AND athletic to beat them, but I think its possible.

Butler plays man. If you want to see REAL progress, wait until we play Creighton. Jordan can tear up man. He might even break out soon, and drop 30 points. His long range shooting isn't bad. I think we should try this:

PG: Branch
SG Harrison
SF Jordan
PF Sampson
C Gift

I admit, I didn't think Gift would get there, but I think he's made big improvements. He's catching hard passes, that he used to bobble, and turnover. And he's being aggressive offensively. That back to the basket move he had against Butler was the first move of it's kind I've seen from a STJ's player this season. I think if we give him a solid 25 minutes, he could give us 9/10 and 6.5/7. Sanchez can contribute, too, and he should be out there, but I like having a big man that mixes it up inside every time, and Gift does. So good for him. He's improved.

Agree with the consensus opinion about baby steps, the quality of the competition, rotation and distribution of minutes and general cautious optimism.

I would add two thoughts. First, the ball movement and more unselfish play isn't as much the product of better plays or better execution. Its a mindset. Branch is the best example; his first inclination is to make a sweet pass on every play. Obviously it leads him to bad decisions every once in a while, but in my experience, its easier to take a kid like that and dial him back a bit than it is to teach a kid who's a me first player to play team ball. You can run all the great plays/offense you want, but in order to hit the open man, you have to actually be looking for him. That sounds ridiculously simplistic, but its something the team has sorely lacked, not only this year but for much of Lavins tenure with this group. There have been a few encouraging signs over the last few games that its starting to happen. Fingers crossed.

Second, as fundamentally sound as Creighton is, this might be the best kind of good team for us to play right now because we're so much more athletic. We used to constantly crush Notre Dame even when they were playing well and were highly ranked for the same reason. Obviously we'll have to play smart AND athletic to beat them, but I think its possible.

We rarely crushed Notre Dame and only beat them at MSG. We were the ones who would get crushed often when we  played them in South Bend.

@StJohnsBBall: After last night's win, #SJUBB  owns a current RPI of 75, with the 35th-toughest schedule in the nation (9-3 home; 1-3 road; 2-2 neutral).

Quote from: tnice on January 26, 2014, 12:13:22 PM

Agree with the consensus opinion about baby steps, the quality of the competition, rotation and distribution of minutes and general cautious optimism.

I would add two thoughts. First, the ball movement and more unselfish play isn't as much the product of better plays or better execution. Its a mindset. Branch is the best example; his first inclination is to make a sweet pass on every play. Obviously it leads him to bad decisions every once in a while, but in my experience, its easier to take a kid like that and dial him back a bit than it is to teach a kid who's a me first player to play team ball. You can run all the great plays/offense you want, but in order to hit the open man, you have to actually be looking for him. That sounds ridiculously simplistic, but its something the team has sorely lacked, not only this year but for much of Lavins tenure with this group. There have been a few encouraging signs over the last few games that its starting to happen. Fingers crossed.

Second, as fundamentally sound as Creighton is, this might be the best kind of good team for us to play right now because we're so much more athletic. We used to constantly crush Notre Dame even when they were playing well and were highly ranked for the same reason. Obviously we'll have to play smart AND athletic to beat them, but I think its possible.

We never rarely crushed Notre Dame and only beat them at MSG. We were the ones who would get crushed often when we  played them in South Bend.

Please translate "never rarely" for me please. 

Not letting myself get overly excited but there is a chance.

Quote from: STJ11Redmen on January 26, 2014, 12:29:09 PM

Quote from: tnice on January 26, 2014, 12:13:22 PM

Agree with the consensus opinion about baby steps, the quality of the competition, rotation and distribution of minutes and general cautious optimism.

I would add two thoughts. First, the ball movement and more unselfish play isn't as much the product of better plays or better execution. Its a mindset. Branch is the best example; his first inclination is to make a sweet pass on every play. Obviously it leads him to bad decisions every once in a while, but in my experience, its easier to take a kid like that and dial him back a bit than it is to teach a kid who's a me first player to play team ball. You can run all the great plays/offense you want, but in order to hit the open man, you have to actually be looking for him. That sounds ridiculously simplistic, but its something the team has sorely lacked, not only this year but for much of Lavins tenure with this group. There have been a few encouraging signs over the last few games that its starting to happen. Fingers crossed.

Second, as fundamentally sound as Creighton is, this might be the best kind of good team for us to play right now because we're so much more athletic. We used to constantly crush Notre Dame even when they were playing well and were highly ranked for the same reason. Obviously we'll have to play smart AND athletic to beat them, but I think its possible.

We never rarely crushed Notre Dame and only beat them at MSG. We were the ones who would get crushed often when we  played them in South Bend.

Please translate "never rarely" for me please. 

Haha I was about to type never but then I remembered the 2011 game at MSG that caused our beloved Phil Greene to commit and forgot to delete never.

Quote from: tnice on January 26, 2014, 12:13:22 PM

Agree with the consensus opinion about baby steps, the quality of the competition, rotation and distribution of minutes and general cautious optimism.

I would add two thoughts. First, the ball movement and more unselfish play isn't as much the product of better plays or better execution. Its a mindset. Branch is the best example; his first inclination is to make a sweet pass on every play. Obviously it leads him to bad decisions every once in a while, but in my experience, its easier to take a kid like that and dial him back a bit than it is to teach a kid who's a me first player to play team ball. You can run all the great plays/offense you want, but in order to hit the open man, you have to actually be looking for him. That sounds ridiculously simplistic, but its something the team has sorely lacked, not only this year but for much of Lavins tenure with this group. There have been a few encouraging signs over the last few games that its starting to happen. Fingers crossed.

Second, as fundamentally sound as Creighton is, this might be the best kind of good team for us to play right now because we're so much more athletic. We used to constantly crush Notre Dame even when they were playing well and were highly ranked for the same reason. Obviously we'll have to play smart AND athletic to beat them, but I think its possible.

We rarely crushed Notre Dame and only beat them at MSG. We were the ones who would get crushed often when we  played them in South Bend.

Edited to remove the word crushed. The point remains...when we beat them, they were better than us and we overwhelmed them with our athleticism and shut down their shoters. Your point is taken tho...doing it on the road will be tough.