Creighton Game II

If he wasn't purposely trying to lose, what was he doing? We have great athletes, no man defense instead we play zone. Why did walkons ever play? Why play with no pg? Why play walk-ons?


*Edited. Please don't refer to players by race, color, creed. No need. Dave

Starting the walkon was the most bizarre (foolish?) move Lavin has made all season.  I don't think it was an effective way to send a message...although I don't know what went on behind the scenes.  As for tinkering with lineups and the slow starts, that seems to be a Lavin trademark.  Like it or not, it is not unusual for him.  Still, I don't think he expected to go 0-5 to start BE play.  0-3 was likely but the team just felt so much pressure after that and they didn't handle it well in the DePaul and first Providence games.  Even in the SHU game, we almost blew the lead.  The season would likely have been over at that point.  The relief showed on Lavin's face and in his words after that.  It also took the monkey off the players' backs.  Now playing with confidence, they feel they can beat anybody.

Can we stop referring to players by race rather than as individuals.  Speak about their skill and talent level rather than the color of their skin.  It really is offensive and stupid.

If he wasn't purposely trying to lose, what was he doing? We have great athletes, no man defense instead we play zone. Why did white guys ever play? Why play with no pg? Why play walkons?

 Please tell me you guys are joking with this stuff.    Really? I will give you the benefit of the doubt.


Seriously, best win of the season and this the road we are still going down. Not only is he a bad coach, he purposely was losing games in order to make the turnaround story that much sweeter..

They say St. John's fans are apathetic,  I think the better description may just be that they are stupid.

Quote from: shamsman2 on February 10, 2014, 03:45:35 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 10, 2014, 03:16:14 PM

Quote from: Foad on February 10, 2014, 03:06:22 PM

Quote from: we are sju on February 10, 2014, 02:52:26 PM

Though to give your theory some fuel, even if we come up short of NCAA now people(media) will focus more on the come back from 0-5 and strong finish rather than the awful job he did early on. 

Yes. And coming together in February means that next year - year 5 of the 5 year plan - he's ready to make a run. I don't think he cares too much about this year and have been of that opinion for a while. 

Last year was the year he didnt care about. That was evidenced by the Harrison suspension when the team was on the bubble. This is a very important season because if you want to make a serious run next year like sweet 16 or elite 8 or whatever, it will be hard to do that with a group of guys who have never played an NCAA tournament game in their careers. You cant punt on two seasons to try to make a little bit of a run in one season

How do you come up with the conclusion, that Lavin, "didn't care about last year?" That is a mind boggling thought, that a coach doesn't care, what was his intention for the season last year. Harrison screwed up and there was consequences for that, at least Lavin had the guts to draw a line in the sand. Apparently Harrison disagrees with you, and we should be thankful for that.

You may not like the way he coaches, but saying  he didn't care, wow!

Lets put it this way: If Lavin was on the hot seat last year and needed to win in order to save his job do you think he suspends harrison? No chance. But he suspended him to get him in the right mindset so that the team could succeed this year. I, like many others were somewhat supportive of the suspension decision because of the good it was supposed to do for this year and next.

Maybe saying he didnt care about last year is a bit strong but its clear that last year was more about player development and preparing the team to do big things in the 13-14 and 14-15 season were higher priorities than winning last year

appreciate you clarifying.

Quote from: DFF6 on February 10, 2014, 05:11:25 PM

Quote from: we are sju on February 10, 2014, 04:48:29 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 10, 2014, 04:35:06 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on February 10, 2014, 04:19:55 PM

Quote from: we are sju on February 10, 2014, 02:30:15 PM

People complaining or not satisfied with how the team is playing now are not real fans. Season looked lost and now at least you can start to get excited again. Still a lot of work to do but at least the games mean something again.

I will be honest though part of me is still annoyed that the coaching staff couldn't figure out rotations and who to play until February. Raftery even brought it up last night when they were discussing why team took so long to jell. It is almost as if Lavin purposely sandbagged the previous months just to ensure his silly proclamation about February would come true. But if we get into tourney all is forgiven.

Plus 10000000000000

Absolutely!  I recall in a huddle at the end of the Penn state game, him telling Dlo to miss the free throws so we can look better in February.  The gameplan in the first Providence gam was to isolate for Dlo at the end of regulation and the first time out and telling him to miss both opportunities so that we would lose in Double OT.  It would be progress from the Penn State loss but nothing like what we would experience in February.  That coach is one conniving SOB.

Starting walkons and guys who were supposed to be redshirted. Not playing Obepka or Jordan, starting Phil Greene at Point Guard, crazy sub patterns and rotations. Playing 10, 11 guys. Was being facetious, but he did a lot of bizare things which was the point.

I know this sounds crazy, but when witnessing the bizarre line ups and questionable substitutions and such this season,  I had a suspicion that Lavin might have purposely held back Jordan and Obekpa during the first half of this season to ensure that they would not get too much exposure early, and would consequently not improve enough during the season to be seriously considered as a high draft pick and then leave early.  I have read quotes from Lavin lamenting about how much better the team would be if Moe didn't jump early.  If you figure that we only lose the seniors next year, then next year's team should be really good, with Jordan, Obekpa, Sampson and Harrison all capable of making first team BE honors.  Again, I know this makes Oliver Stone look like a conservative thinker, but I, like others, was trying to rationalize some of the bat-sh!t moves Lavin was pulling off during that terrible stretch.

Any thoughts on the Kennedy assassination?

Thanks, that was beautiful!

I was being lazy. Why sit 4 star top 100 players and play 2 0 star players that no other team wanted. Makes no sense. AND IT ALSO DIDNT WORK, AT ALL! I give him most of the blame for the 0-5. I also think he should get plenty of praise for the winning streak.

Can we stop referring to players by race rather than as individuals.  Speak about their skill and talent level rather than the color of their skin.  It really is offensive and stupid.

I agree and this should apply to coaches as well. So I don't want to see anyone say Coach Whitesell again. Coach ethnicallyambiguosell is ok though

Starting the walkon was the most bizarre (foolish?) move Lavin has made all season.  I don't think it was an effective way to send a message...although I don't know what went on behind the scenes.  .

You may not think so, but Lavin clearly does. This is why he constantly refers to the second half of the Georgetown game as the turning point of the season, even though we lost that game and the next three. He is indirectly crediting himself for his motivational genius. If you subscribe to Foad's Lavin Theory- one which states that Lavin is a narcissistic simpleton who believes he's a genius (and I do)- this is much easier to understand. Its kind of like last year when he kept calling SJU the youngest team in the country to excuse the fact that they were playing horribly. He thinks he's "staying on message", even though he's saying something no one believes no matter how many times he repeats it.

But who cares? The team is (finally) playing great in spite of him, and we're back on a bubble and poised to make a nice run in the BE tourney and hopefully the big dance. Good times ahead.

Quote from: paultzman on February 10, 2014, 03:57:43 PM

http://nypost.com/2014/02/10/st-johns-rewind-obekpa-finally-showing-up-on-offense/

"Where was everybody?: Shame on St. John’s fans. Shame on local college basketball fans. You had the possible National Player of the Year, Creighton’s Doug McDermott, making his Madison Square Garden debut and red-hot "St. John’s playing its best basketball of the season, and only 6,739 people decided to show up.
Those who did get to the Garden were loud, energetic and into the thrilling nail-bitter. Still, when did we get so soft around here? The game tipped off at 7 p.m., and the weather is no excuse. It barely snowed.
Here’s hoping next Sunday’s showdown with Georgetown at the Garden, again set to start at 7 p.m., draws a far better crowd. St. John’s deserves it, the way it is playing these days."

Kinda see both sides. On one hand STJ fans are famous for their fair-weather support. It has defined them over 20 years, but then again, wins put people in the seats. For an NIT team are people going to come into the city on a Sunday night? Clearly not. Maybe if we beat Seton Hall on the road, we'll have a chance to sell some tickets for Georgetown on the 16th.

Agree with you on lack of fan support being attributable to lack of winning over past dozen years with another factor being ticket prices.

 Tnice, the "in spite of him" in your post is speculation and opinion.  It could just as easily be "because of him."  None of us can really know.  What seems bizarre to us may, in fact, work.  I never understood why any kid would be motivated to play for coaches like Bob Knight or Woody Hayes, yet they won.  Lavin is no Coach K,  on that much we can all agree.  Maybe his motivational tactics are what works for his coaching style.  This year has been eerily similar to 2010-11.  That is the reason I was never in panic mode when things were going badly.  We just went through this a few years back and now we all wax poetic about how great a year that was.  I remember walking out of the Fordham gym after blowing an 18 point lead, thinking that group was going nowhere and looking forward to Lavin's recruits turning things around.  Then we saw the transformation/development of that team.  Now we're seeing it happen again.

After blowing 22 point early second half lead. 

Tnice, the "in spite of him" in your post is speculation and opinion.  It could just as easily be "because of him."  None of us can really know.  What seems bizarre to us may, in fact, work.  I never understood why any kid would be motivated to play for coaches like Bob Knight or Woody Hayes, yet they won.  Lavin is no Coach K,  on that much we can all agree.  Maybe his motivational tactics are what works for his coaching style.  This year has been eerily similar to 2010-11.  That is the reason I was never in panic mode when things were going badly.  We just went through this a few years back and now we all wax poetic about how great a year that was.  I remember walking out of the Fordham gym after blowing an 18 point lead, thinking that group was going nowhere and looking forward to Lavin's recruits turning things around.  Then we saw the transformation/development of that team.  Now we're seeing it happen again.

When I said they were winning in spite of Lavin, I wasn't referring only to his motivational tactics, but his overall basketball smarts as well. You chose two poor analogies; Hayes and Knight were generally regarded as master tacticians in their sport. Lavin, to put it kindly, is not.

Your statement that "none of us can really know" what influence Lavin has on the teams success or failure isn't true. There may not be any objective, one plus one equals two proof, but there is enough of a body of work to judge the man subjectively. At UCLA he was regarded as a master recruiter and a substandard coach, a bit of a used car salesman and a flake who did crazy stuff with lineups and rotations whose teams underperformed. All of those things have proven true here. Last season, after Dunlap but before Whitesell, was one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever seen...a mess of a team with zero clue on defense and an offense unbecoming  a CYO team. The offense, game management, and rotations were so bad earlier this year that I can only imagine they changed because of a coaching intervention. Thankfully Lavin has shown an inclination to listen to those who know more than him. That's the biggest turning point in the season IMHO.

I don't want to kill the buzz or hijack a thread about the best win we've had in years. We have great talent and they're finally playing well. I'm stoked about that and leaving last nights game I felt the best I've felt about this team in a while. But lets not get all "see, everybody was wrong about Lavin" over this little streak. The deficiencies are still there, we're just working around them while playing the easier part of our schedule, which is fine. Just because I think Lavin is a phony and kind of a dope doesn't mean I wont be at our first round game in the NCAA tourney.

You guys call Lavin bat shit crazy . . . have you read this entire thread yet???

Quote from: paultzman on February 10, 2014, 03:57:43 PM

http://nypost.com/2014/02/10/st-johns-rewind-obekpa-finally-showing-up-on-offense/

"Where was everybody?: Shame on St. John’s fans. Shame on local college basketball fans. You had the possible National Player of the Year, Creighton’s Doug McDermott, making his Madison Square Garden debut and red-hot "St. John’s playing its best basketball of the season, and only 6,739 people decided to show up.
Those who did get to the Garden were loud, energetic and into the thrilling nail-bitter. Still, when did we get so soft around here? The game tipped off at 7 p.m., and the weather is no excuse. It barely snowed.
Here’s hoping next Sunday’s showdown with Georgetown at the Garden, again set to start at 7 p.m., draws a far better crowd. St. John’s deserves it, the way it is playing these days."

Kinda see both sides. On one hand STJ fans are famous for their fair-weather support. It has defined them over 20 years, but then again, wins put people in the seats. For an NIT team are people going to come into the city on a Sunday night? Clearly not. Maybe if we beat Seton Hall on the road, we'll have a chance to sell some tickets for Georgetown on the 16th.

Sunday at 7 isn't the easiest game to make.

There may not be any objective, one plus one equals two proof

Yep and 3+5=W

I love all the mini math lessons that go on in the jungle and agree with everything you say about Lavin.  These clowns want to give Lavin the credit that Creighton was 5-23 from 3 last night on 21 wide open looks.

Go Stevie!!!

Anyways back to the game.....

- Thought Dom Pointer and Branch were great sparks off the bench. GG in limited action too. All added positive minutes as soon as they came on the floor.
- Phil Greene knocked down an open 3. This is a great trend if he can continue to do this at least once a game on minimal attempts.
- Rysheed Jordan is really figuring things out and his ability to penetrate is allowing him to create.
- JaKarr's midrange jumper might be the most consistent element of this team.
- A lot of times you saw guys playing with some confidence and swag. Good plays, hustle is contagious and right now this team is infectious!
- Harrison can make a living at the FT line. Love when he gets there 6+ times.
- Obekpa is adding more dimension and earning his minutes. He's really fighting on offense to get position, playing with confidence, and his teammates are showing faith in him. Might have been his best game and he didn't record a block!
- Outside of Pointer and Obekpa the team had a total of 1 turnover.
- The team didn't tighten up at the end. When there was a minute to go, I feared they'd bleed 35 seconds off the clock and not get a good shot when up 2. They actually got a good look even though it didn't fall. I like that the team was poised and was looking to score.
- Doug McDermott and Grant Gibbs are really fun to watch. Glad they didn't have any last minute heroics.

Thought Dom Pointer and Branch were great sparks off the bench. GG in limited action too. All added positive minutes as soon as they came on the floor.

Dave my man I disagree with you about Branch he was responsible for a 6-8 point swing at the end of the half and it could have been worse because he totally fouled the guy from 3 but got away with it.  Brutal defender

Anyways back to the game.....

- Thought Dom Pointer and Branch were great sparks off the bench. GG in limited action too. All added positive minutes as soon as they came on the floor.
- Phil Greene knocked down an open 3. This is a great trend if he can continue to do this at least once a game on minimal attempts.
- Rysheed Jordan is really figuring things out and his ability to penetrate is allowing him to create.
- JaKarr's midrange jumper might be the most consistent element of this team.
- A lot of times you saw guys playing with some confidence and swag. Good plays, hustle is contagious and right now this team is infectious!
- Harrison can make a living at the FT line. Love when he gets there 6+ times.
- Obekpa is adding more dimension and earning his minutes. He's really fighting on offense to get position, playing with confidence, and his teammates are showing faith in him. Might have been his best game and he didn't record a block!
- Outside of Pointer and Obekpa the team had a total of 1 turnover.
- The team didn't tighten up at the end. When there was a minute to go, I feared they'd bleed 35 seconds off the clock and not get a good shot when up 2. They actually got a good look even though it didn't fall. I like that the team was poised and was looking to score.
- Doug McDermott and Grant Gibbs are really fun to watch. Glad they didn't have any last minute heroics.

I don't get Greene sometimes. The first time he got the ball on break last night he took the ball strong to the hoop and drew a foul. The next 2 times he had it on a break he did his stop and circle routine. I don't understand. A guy with his size and quickness should thrive off of getting to the basket, especially since he can keep defenses honest with his midrange fadeaway. If he keeps hitting outside shots like he has though he will be a huge asset for the team.

- Phil Greene knocked down an open 3. This is a great trend if he can continue to do this at least once a game on minimal attempts.
- Rysheed Jordan is really figuring things out and his ability to penetrate is allowing him to create.
- JaKarr's midrange jumper might be the most consistent element of this team.
- A lot of times you saw guys playing with some confidence and swag. Good plays, hustle is contagious and right now this team is infectious!
- Harrison can make a living at the FT line. Love when he gets there 6+ times.
- Obekpa is adding more dimension and earning his minutes. He's really fighting on offense to get position, playing with confidence, and his teammates are showing faith in him. Might have been his best game and he didn't record a block!
- Outside of Pointer and Obekpa the team had a total of 1 turnover.
- The team didn't tighten up at the end. When there was a minute to go, I feared they'd bleed 35 seconds off the clock and not get a good shot when up 2. They actually got a good look even though it didn't fall. I like that the team was poised and was looking to score.
- Doug McDermott and Grant Gibbs are really fun to watch. Glad they didn't have any last minute heroics.

Dave I totally agree with all your other assessments.

Just two more things to add:

Sanchez should be nailed to the bench next to Marco
3+5=W