Why the Recruits for Next Year could Save Lavin and Us

 Look the kids we have been getting before this year have all been rated extremely highly and ALL seem to think they are the greatest and have had egos (maybe there are some exceptions, etc.). What I have felt has been missing form these teams have been the Tyrone Grants, Lamont Middltons, Andre Stanleys, etc.  We need the hard working bruisers who will work their asses off and get down and dirty.  For probably the only time in our history we didnt have a player like that last year (even Dom who probably came in as one somehow strayed from being one).  You add a Delarosa, and maybe a Marlon Jones and a Thomas, and now we've got those hard workers.  Hard work and doing the little things is contagious.  Dom will start to do them again.  And so on and so forth.

Who gives a shit if we don't get a top 100 player this year?  We have a top 20 in Jordan, a top 40 in Harrison, a top 50 in Pointer, a top 50 in Branch --- that's more top players than we have had at St. John's since the late 90s probably.  Give me some bruisers, some guys to do the little things, and we MAY be able to have a good season.

I am not one of those posters going around and saying hey Jakarr sucks and Obekpa was worthless now that they have left.  They are probably in the top 10 of most talented players we have had at SJU in the last decade.  What I am saying is that there were clearly issues on the team last year and issues with the coaching.  In retrospect, it seems like a lot of this could be because we didnt have balance - we had too many top kids who thought leaving for the NBA early was their birthright.  And perhaps it is all on Lavin - if he promised each of them theyd be the prettiest girl at the ball, some of them are going to get their panties in a bunch and act out and not listen if she no longer feels like the prettiest girl at the ball.

We have plenty of talented top notch guys to make a tourney run next year.  Let's get the work ethic rebounding defense low down and dirty guys who epitomize a blue collar team.  Even under Norm we were still a blue collar team, now we're not for the first time in history.  Get back there, with the talent, and maybe we finally realize the success that we expected.

Look I am not by ANY means suggesting this was a master plan by Lavin - I don't think so at all. I think his master plan got busted because he couldn't keep everyone happy, playing together, disciplined, etc. But by sheer luck this may benefit the team and him.

Good post, Kid.  By his inattentiveness to this year's class, Lavin just might have stumbled upon the right way to build a team, as opposed to just picking up the highest ranked available kid with apparently little regard to how he will impact the team's chemistry and balance. 

Good points. I an just happy that there is some positive new for the program for the first time in a while. Having  a Hardworking blue collar from NYC can have of the potential of the city embracing this team... Winning always helps but having a local product can't hurt either.

Look the kids we have been getting before this year have all been rated extremely highly and ALL seem to think they are the greatest and have had egos (maybe there are some exceptions, etc.). What I have felt has been missing form these teams have been the Tyrone Grants, Lamont Middltons, Andre Stanleys, etc.  We need the hard working bruisers who will work their asses off and get down and dirty.  For probably the only time in our history we didnt have a player like that last year (even Dom who probably came in as one somehow strayed from being one).  You add a Delarosa, and maybe a Marlon Jones and a Thomas, and now we've got those hard workers.  Hard work and doing the little things is contagious.  Dom will start to do them again.  And so on and so forth.

Who gives a shit if we don't get a top 100 player this year?  We have a top 20 in Jordan, a top 40 in Harrison, a top 50 in Pointer, a top 50 in Branch --- that's more top players than we have had at St. John's since the late 90s probably.  Give me some bruisers, some guys to do the little things, and we MAY be able to have a good season.

I am not one of those posters going around and saying hey Jakarr sucks and Obekpa was worthless now that they have left.  They are probably in the top 10 of most talented players we have had at SJU in the last decade.  What I am saying is that there were clearly issues on the team last year and issues with the coaching.  In retrospect, it seems like a lot of this could be because we didnt have balance - we had too many top kids who thought leaving for the NBA early was their birthright.  And perhaps it is all on Lavin - if he promised each of them theyd be the prettiest girl at the ball, some of them are going to get their panties in a bunch and act out and not listen if she no longer feels like the prettiest girl at the ball.

We have plenty of talented top notch guys to make a tourney run next year.  Let's get the work ethic rebounding defense low down and dirty guys who epitomize a blue collar team.  Even under Norm we were still a blue collar team, now we're not for the first time in history.  Get back there, with the talent, and maybe we finally realize the success that we expected.

Look I am not by ANY means suggesting this was a master plan by Lavin - I don't think so at all. I think his master plan got busted because he couldn't keep everyone happy, playing together, disciplined, etc. But by sheer luck this may benefit the team and him.

I couldn't agree more with this post and I am glad that cooler heads may be prevailing now.  The string of news and rumors seemed worse than it was.  This team over the past few seasons no doubt had talent but weren't assembled like a team.  Lavin, through no fault of his own was forced to put a team together in one year which is an unenviable task.  We all know the deal, he took all the talented players he could and hoped for the best.  What he was left with this season as a result was hodge podge of players, no defined roles, no set rotation and too many similar skill sets.  Now he has the benefit of having some stability and can zero in on team needs, team needs before were , everything.  Lets hope lav has learned from the past and gets a guard or two in this cycle

Where did this notion come from that we only need some bruisers?      This isn't directed at just you Kid, but I think most of our fans have forgotten what actually happened this season.   We were an average rebounding team, and a pretty decent defensive team actually.   
It's very convenient to claim that we just need to add some role players who play hard-nosed D and can hit the boards, but that's not reality.

We couldn't score efficiently!   
We were second in the BE in opponents' fg%, and ranked 40th in Defensive Efficiency by Ken Pom.
We were ranked 130+ in Offensive Efficiency; near the bottom of the conference in assists, 3 pointers made, and were at best a mediocre foul shooting team.    THIS, was the problem.  Putting the ball in the net.   We lost close games coming down the stretch because we had 10min scoring droughts. 

Now, if you want to argue that Jakarr hogged the ball and hurt the flow?  Ok, that's plausible.   
But the truth is that while we can use obviously some better rebounding, more than anything we needed another play-maker, a stud, a scorer.

The conversation around here has become ridiculous.   It's as if none of you were paying attention for the last 6 months.   

We were decent rebounding but terrible at giving up offensive rebounds, although our rebound total was high were still net negative on the season in rebounds to rebounds given up.  You know what helps offensive efficiency?  Easy put backs, high percentage shots from bigs.  You know what helps assists?  Bigs being in position to receive the ball near the basket.  We need to get better at rebounding and need more points in the paint, high percentage shots not from our attacking wings.  These types of players will help in these aspects of the game.  You are right, we need to shoot the three better and more often and def need to do better from the line.

In terms of helping efficiency, Adonis and Thomas can do that, Thomas is great around the basket and takes high percentage shots and converts them at tremendous clip.  ADR has good hands, good passing skills and although he will play above the rim has the potential to be a poor mans kennedy meeks,  getting high percentage shots close to the hoop and passing out of the post to our shooters.  I think they would both be great fits

I meant ADR will play below the rim not above

Where did this notion come from that we only need some bruisers?      This isn't directed at just you Kid, but I think most of our fans have forgotten what actually happened this season.   We were an average rebounding team, and a pretty decent defensive team actually.   
It's very convenient to claim that we just need to add some role players who play hard-nosed D and can hit the boards, but that's not reality.

We couldn't score efficiently!   
We were second in the BE in opponents' fg%, and ranked 40th in Defensive Efficiency by Ken Pom.
We were ranked 130+ in Offensive Efficiency; near the bottom of the conference in assists, 3 pointers made, and were at best a mediocre foul shooting team.    THIS, was the problem.  Putting the ball in the net.   We lost close games coming down the stretch because we had 10min scoring droughts. 

Now, if you want to argue that Jakarr hogged the ball and hurt the flow?  Ok, that's plausible.   
But the truth is that while we can use obviously some better rebounding, more than anything we needed another play-maker, a stud, a scorer.

The conversation around here has become ridiculous.   It's as if none of you were paying attention for the last 6 months.   

I think without JaKarr's mind-numbing 18 foot jumpshots and Jordan assuming a larger role of the offense, our offense might be slightly better, or at least could be more efficient, than it was last year. but I don't think anyone is saying that we are better off without Sampson and Obekpa next year (at least I wasn't).

Quote from: desco80 on April 10, 2014, 02:18:34 PM

Where did this notion come from that we only need some bruisers?      This isn't directed at just you Kid, but I think most of our fans have forgotten what actually happened this season.   We were an average rebounding team, and a pretty decent defensive team actually.   
It's very convenient to claim that we just need to add some role players who play hard-nosed D and can hit the boards, but that's not reality.

We couldn't score efficiently!   
We were second in the BE in opponents' fg%, and ranked 40th in Defensive Efficiency by Ken Pom.
We were ranked 130+ in Offensive Efficiency; near the bottom of the conference in assists, 3 pointers made, and were at best a mediocre foul shooting team.    THIS, was the problem.  Putting the ball in the net.   We lost close games coming down the stretch because we had 10min scoring droughts. 

Now, if you want to argue that Jakarr hogged the ball and hurt the flow?  Ok, that's plausible.   
But the truth is that while we can use obviously some better rebounding, more than anything we needed another play-maker, a stud, a scorer.

The conversation around here has become ridiculous.   It's as if none of you were paying attention for the last 6 months.   

I think without JaKarr's mind-numbing 18 foot jumpshots and Jordan assuming a larger role of the offense, our offense might be slightly better, or at least could be more efficient, than it was last year. but I don't think anyone is saying that we are better off without Sampson and Obekpa next year (at least I wasn't).

I think we are not going replace sampson and obekpa with like talents and we are not better off in that regard. But, I do believe this team has a chance to be a much better team than it was last year.  That is due to a few things, one being RJ having a year under his belt and the other is in relation to the above posts.  Also, the team concept is the most important and shouldnt be overlooked, both players mentioned were not good fits for the team concept this year.  Jakarr is a great kid, I really like him and i think he is a tremendous talent but he admitted himself he was playing within the team concept at times and obekpa well, i dont think we even have to address his team play at this point.  Assuming Thomas and at least two more players come on board, I think this team will surprise some folks. 

Where did this notion come from that we only need some bruisers?      This isn't directed at just you Kid, but I think most of our fans have forgotten what actually happened this season.   We were an average rebounding team, and a pretty decent defensive team actually.   
It's very convenient to claim that we just need to add some role players who play hard-nosed D and can hit the boards, but that's not reality.

We couldn't score efficiently!   
We were second in the BE in opponents' fg%, and ranked 40th in Defensive Efficiency by Ken Pom.
We were ranked 130+ in Offensive Efficiency; near the bottom of the conference in assists, 3 pointers made, and were at best a mediocre foul shooting team.    THIS, was the problem.  Putting the ball in the net.   We lost close games coming down the stretch because we had 10min scoring droughts. 

Now, if you want to argue that Jakarr hogged the ball and hurt the flow?  Ok, that's plausible.   
But the truth is that while we can use obviously some better rebounding, more than anything we needed another play-maker, a stud, a scorer.

The conversation around here has become ridiculous.   It's as if none of you were paying attention for the last 6 months.   

You are absolutely right.  I didn't extrapolate enough in my post, but what I meant by everyone thinking that they are the prettiest girl at the ball was, everyone wanted to score, everyone wanted to "get theirs", people would get annoyed when they wouldn't, and I think that disrupted the flow on offense.  I also think the offense through January sucked bc Whitesell came aboard so late that it took a while to develop an offense (just guessing, I have no idea).

I think a lot of these things work themselves out with people willing to play more of a "team game" and I think this year's recruits can help that.

A lot of teams are successful with 1 or 2 guys doing most of the heavy lifting scoring wise.  We'll just need the other guys (pointer, branch, jones, ADL, and whoever else) to do their jobs. 

We are starting over with a brand new frontcourt. This will be a better season than last year if the new frontcourt is made up of guys that are true sleepers. Ty Grant, one of my all time favorites, wasn't ready to contribute the minutes he did as a freshman, but we had no choice.

It took him until his junior year before he really started to play like the Ty Grant we remember. Sampson and Obekpa had their faults. I kinda felt like they were lost out there defense, but they would have been heading into their junior seasons. It takes some guys longer to learn the game.

Look at the 10-11 team. They all came into their own during their last year. Yes, they had a terrible teacher, but some guys just need more time. We need bigger stronger tougher guys, but we also need smarter guys who are a quicker study.

A lot of teams are successful with 1 or 2 guys doing most of the heavy lifting scoring wise.  We'll just need the other guys (pointer, branch, jones, ADL, and whoever else) to do their jobs. 

Really need 3 guys who can consistently score that can carry a team. Right now we have 2, if either one has an off night as they will, it' over. Not much margin for error. UCONN came alive when DeAndre Jordan joined Napier and Boatright.

We were decent rebounding but terrible at giving up offensive rebounds, although our rebound total was high were still net negative on the season in rebounds to rebounds given up.  You know what helps offensive efficiency?  Easy put backs, high percentage shots from bigs.  You know what helps assists?  Bigs being in position to receive the ball near the basket.  We need to get better at rebounding and need more points in the paint, high percentage shots not from our attacking wings.  These types of players will help in these aspects of the game.  You are right, we need to shoot the three better and more often and def need to do better from the line.

Good post. Uconn had a big under the basket waiting for their guards to break the D down and get them the ball. Our bigs stayed on the perimeter.

The biggest problem with last year's team was lack of ball movement.  Greene dribbled too much, too much one on one.  Looked like an AAU team.  Only screens set were the basic top of the key for the guards.  No inside screens, baseline screens to speak of. A switch away from the AAU star attitude (I need to get mine) will be helped by role players as opposed to guys who wrongly think they are NBA bound  and need to strut their stuff.  Next year we will have a spectacular starting backcourt with better than adequate reserve guards. If Delarosa can get in reasonable shape and use his wide ass properly and if we get Thomas and he rebounds as advertised, this could be an excellent team.  The ball movement and new player development are coaching issues and hopefully Lavin and his boys will rise to the occasion.  Of course, as stated before, I am an eternal optimist as far as SJU hoops and my golf game goes.

The biggest problem with last year's team was lack of ball movement.  Greene dribbled too much, too much one on one.  Looked like an AAU team.  Only screens set were the basic top of the key for the guards.  No inside screens, baseline screens to speak of. A switch away from the AAU star attitude (I need to get mine) will be helped by role players as opposed to guys who wrongly think they are NBA bound  and need to strut their stuff.  Next year we will have a spectacular starting backcourt with better than adequate reserve guards. If Delarosa can get in reasonable shape and use his wide ass properly and if we get Thomas and he rebounds as advertised, this could be an excellent team.  The ball movement and new player development are coaching issues and hopefully Lavin and his boys will rise to the occasion.  Of course, as stated before, I am an eternal optimist as far as SJU hoops and my golf game goes.

If Thomas turns out to be an absolute stud, and if Delarosa can be the surprise freshman in the BE we'll be good. What the chances we strike gold? If these guys were able to play right now, they'd have serious programs after them. I hope wrong, but I'm expecting 4 points and 5 boards per game from Thomas if he starts. Delarosa is heavy. Even still. He has a lot of work to do just to be able to get up and down the floor. They need two more big men, assuming they land Thomas.

If not, it's going to take 5 minutes before Balounis playing the 4, and Chris Jones is playing the 5.

Quote from: cjfish on April 10, 2014, 04:59:44 PM

The biggest problem with last year's team was lack of ball movement.  Greene dribbled too much, too much one on one.  Looked like an AAU team.  Only screens set were the basic top of the key for the guards.  No inside screens, baseline screens to speak of. A switch away from the AAU star attitude (I need to get mine) will be helped by role players as opposed to guys who wrongly think they are NBA bound  and need to strut their stuff.  Next year we will have a spectacular starting backcourt with better than adequate reserve guards. If Delarosa can get in reasonable shape and use his wide ass properly and if we get Thomas and he rebounds as advertised, this could be an excellent team.  The ball movement and new player development are coaching issues and hopefully Lavin and his boys will rise to the occasion.  Of course, as stated before, I am an eternal optimist as far as SJU hoops and my golf game goes.

If Thomas turns out to be an absolute stud, and if Delarosa can be the surprise freshman in the BE we'll be good. What the chances we strike gold? If these guys were able to play right now, they'd have serious programs after them. I hope wrong, but I'm expecting 4 points and 5 boards per game from Thomas if he starts. Delarosa is heavy. Even still. He has a lot of work to do just to be able to get up and down the floor. They need two more big men, assuming they land Thomas.

If not, it's going to take 5 minutes before Balounis playing the 4, and Chris Jones is playing the 5.

You'd think Thomas would have gotten notice if he was able to play right now, but it seems to me that WCC's conference doesn't get too much burn across the nation due to level of play.  I don't want to get my hopes up, but I hope it's some strange Otto Porter good luck if we get Thomas - we sure as heck could use it   

This has become a mid major program. Time to accept it

This has become a mid major program. Time to accept it

Baldi - I can take reading it once, maybe twice, but check back on your posts.  Now you're harping on it.


I like the Manhattan/Iona rivalry, but a Manhattan grad is sayin' - you are trying to bring SJ's down to Iona's (and Manhattan's for that matter) level - ain't gonna happen.  Stop beating the drum when it's a) not true; b) not going to come true.


If you stated Sj's SOMETIMES plays a game at mid-major level, I could accept that as reasonable.  Mid-majors aren't chopped liver anymore, so no harm there.  But don't rile me up - I'll call Mazella to straighten you out...