Save the scholarship

for 2009. I think there is more of a chance to land a better quality player in 2009 while also not creating a log jam of players with looking for playing time causing potential transfers. It would also balance out the number of scholarships in each year. If we sign Williams this means we have only 1 available scholarship for next season.

What about this Williams guy makes you think he isn't a quality player? A bird in the hand...
If we have a chance to grab a good player, who can help, we had better do it. Walk before we run.

Kennedy helped us plenty last year, and I'd love to get another version of him.

Quote from: JJ on June 07, 2008, 12:00:32 AM

for 2009. I think there is more of a chance to land a better quality player in 2009 while also not creating a log jam of players with looking for playing time causing potential transfers. It would also balance out the number of scholarships in each year. If we sign Williams this means we have only 1 available scholarship for next season.

What about this Williams guy makes you think he isn't a quality player? A bird in the hand...
If we have a chance to grab a good player, who can help, we had better do it. Walk before we run.

Kennedy helped us plenty last year, and I'd love to get another version of him.

If Williams is so good and we had a chance at him all along then why sign Quincy Roberts? The staff needs to do a better job of balancing the scholarships as well as securing the best players first. Getting too many guys too fast of similar caliber leads to unhappy players and transfers.

Also we need a long term plan into place not just getting best player available after every team in the Big East is finished recruiting for this current year. We salvaged a pretty decent class in the spring lets move on and focus for 2009 to actually try and get ahead.

Agree w/JJ. the 09 class is loaded and to limit to 1 schollie is lame. the last thing you want is not enough to go around. 2 open schollies would be pushing it already.

If I remember, Rob ended up starting up classes Jan 07.

His eligibility was not approved untill Fall 06 classes were already running 4-6 weeks.

So he will probably have 4.5 years of classes 4 yrs playing, giving him still 3 more.

Quote from: oldred10 on June 09, 2008, 09:41:40 AM

The fact this kid was the MVP in the "select" division at the TOC speaks volumes. I would sign him off that alone. Plus, i could care less what class he's in or where he is from. If he is a "major talent" get him here... I'm through waiting/hoping for one of  these city kids to grow a pair of balls & stop being led around by their noses by their HS/AAU coaches.. .. peace!

The select division only means that his team didn't finish first in its initial pool. It allows for second place AAU teams to continue to play, albeit on a single elimination model, in the tournament. It allows for teams to be able to get more than 2-3 games.

I realize that sleaves. My main point was the kid beat out some "highly ranked" players for the award. Here is the list of players in his division :

http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=910&CID=812749

we can't keep on getting guys for this class.  if we have 1 schollie for next year that would be a disaster.

Im not saying I agree with it, but if a top recruit wants to come the coaches must politely tell a scholarship player he would be better off getting playing time elsewhere and look to transfer

i wouldn't worry about getting a top recruit... lol

if keith spelling signs, we are out of ammo and have basically shut the door on any potential 4 or 5 star recruit.

Disagree with this notion of holding ships.  I'm hearing that this Williams kid is much better than both Edmonson and Roberts and that he would most likely get a ton of minutes backing up at the 2 and 3 and then step right in to Mason's spot next year.  You have to bring in good players when you can.  If you keep bringing in good players, eventually you will be good.  Not everyone is ever going to play.  If you are going to give out 13 ships there is always going to be someone who is unhappy with their playing time.  That's part of the game.  Why complain that we have too many good players?   We have had way too many years with not enough good ones.

Besides, what makes anyone think that there won't be at least 2 transfers next year regardless?  It's happened every year under Roberts and if there is a new coach you can guarantee that there would be at least two.  Also what makes anyone think we are going to be able to get someone better?  We are recruiting other wing players for 2009-10 anyway.  Parrom, Lawrence are wings so the position issue should not be a factor.  Why not take the player now instead of waiting a year?  The best players should play.  IMO you can never have enough good players on the team.  The cream rises.  This sounds like a really good prospect and someone we can groom to replace Mason.  Edmonson and Roberts may be only backup type role players.  Every good team needs those as well.   

I would question the Stith offer more than the Williams offer.   I think we desparately need another scorer to be competitive next year.  We lost a big weapon in Larry Wright.  Horne and Kennedy are good players but I think this Williams kid could be that third option we need.  I'm tired of St John's struggling to score in the 50s.

Disagree with this notion of holding ships.  I'm hearing that this Williams kid is much better than both Edmonson and Roberts and that he would most likely get a ton of minutes backing up at the 2 and 3 and then step right in to Mason's spot next year.  You have to bring in good players when you can.  If you keep bringing in good players, eventually you will be good.  Not everyone is ever going to play.  If you are going to give out 13 ships there is always going to be someone who is unhappy with their playing time.  That's part of the game.  Why complain that we have too many good players?   We have had way too many years with not enough good ones.

Besides, what makes anyone think that there won't be at least 2 transfers next year regardless?  It's happened every year under Roberts and if there is a new coach you can guarantee that there would be at least two.  Also what makes anyone think we are going to be able to get someone better?  We are recruiting other wing players for 2009-10 anyway.  Parrom, Lawrence are wings so the position issue should not be a factor.  Why not take the player now instead of waiting a year?  The best players should play.  IMO you can never have enough good players on the team.  The cream rises.  This sounds like a really good prospect and someone we can groom to replace Mason.  Edmonson and Roberts may be only backup type role players.  Every good team needs those as well.  

I would question the Stith offer more than the Williams offer.   I think we desparately need another scorer to be competitive next year.  We lost a big weapon in Larry Wright.  Horne and Kennedy are good players but I think this Williams kid could be that third option we need.  I'm tired of St John's struggling to score in the 50s.

Well if Roberts and Edmondson aren't near the caliber of Williams than why did we jump the gun to sign them? Why weren't we on Williams earlier then? Its poor management all around. I'm really not making a strong case against Williams but I'm making my point with we should or should have left 1 scholarship for next season in addition to the ones opening up due to graduation.

I don't think Williams is much better if better than Quincy Roberts. I don't know an overwhelming amount about either except a lot of write ups and some videos but we need better management of the scholarship distribution. Last year we took bpa whenever they were available out of necessity but I think we're slightly past panic mode. We have a decent core to build around but we need to keep schollies open to land the bigger fish. This is why I wanted JUCOs after striking out with the big fish as a 2yr commitment can help balance the roster better than 4 year.

I'm also curious what was told to each of these before they signed. Where did Norm see them fit? What was promised?

I think both Quincy & Ty are said to be combo guards
(per Norm & many quotes). 2 combo's fulfill need for 2nd PG.

Williams is a 3.

The question should be more how does Williams compare to
Kilpatrick & Scott. If evenly or better (which I think he does)
a bird in hand ....   

btw with Stith already verballed for next year,
Spellman hopefully should not have been yet offered.

We will still have at least 1 left, if no transfers & Stith qualifies.

RUSS-SJU, I see what you're saying, and I do think the cream will rise.  To its relative top.  If Williams is really good, if he can actually shoot and score, doesn't he replace the team's need for Kilpatrick?  Signing Stith, by the way, was a great move - Boothe can't play 40 minutes, he's only going to improve into a mediocre scorer (from a complete liability), and he had back pains last year.  He runs into people.  Boothe needs a caddy.

We're speculating about unknown players, once again, and that is probably not going to change for another two years; there has to be improvement on the court.

And JJ, I'd like to know, also, what the staff told Edmondson and Roberts before they signed.

Quote from: Poison on June 09, 2008, 01:54:52 PM

Quote from: JJ on June 07, 2008, 12:00:32 AM

for 2009. I think there is more of a chance to land a better quality player in 2009 while also not creating a log jam of players with looking for playing time causing potential transfers. It would also balance out the number of scholarships in each year. If we sign Williams this means we have only 1 available scholarship for next season.

What about this Williams guy makes you think he isn't a quality player? A bird in the hand...
If we have a chance to grab a good player, who can help, we had better do it. Walk before we run.

Kennedy helped us plenty last year, and I'd love to get another version of him.

If Williams is so good and we had a chance at him all along then why sign Quincy Roberts? The staff needs to do a better job of balancing the scholarships as well as securing the best players first. Getting too many guys too fast of similar caliber leads to unhappy players and transfers.

Also we need a long term plan into place not just getting best player available after every team in the Big East is finished recruiting for this current year. We salvaged a pretty decent class in the spring lets move on and focus for 2009 to actually try and get ahead.

Agree about the transfer thing, but our kids don't transfer because they see too much talent at their position.
They transfer because Roberts only likes guys who play a certain way.

Patterson and Wright could shoot, but they did little else. Therefore, they were pushed out quietly.

If Williams is earning honors like MVP of all star tourneys, than it is likely that he was overlooked. Patrick Beverly wasn't highly recruited until late in his senior year. Players get better. Especially high school kids. He sounds like a true sleeper, not the miralce sleeper that we're hoping for Wait.

Quote from: RUSS-SJU on June 10, 2008, 11:48:33 PM

Disagree with this notion of holding ships.  I'm hearing that this Williams kid is much better than both Edmonson and Roberts and that he would most likely get a ton of minutes backing up at the 2 and 3 and then step right in to Mason's spot next year.  You have to bring in good players when you can.  If you keep bringing in good players, eventually you will be good.  Not everyone is ever going to play.  If you are going to give out 13 ships there is always going to be someone who is unhappy with their playing time.  That's part of the game.  Why complain that we have too many good players?   We have had way too many years with not enough good ones.

Besides, what makes anyone think that there won't be at least 2 transfers next year regardless?  It's happened every year under Roberts and if there is a new coach you can guarantee that there would be at least two.  Also what makes anyone think we are going to be able to get someone better?  We are recruiting other wing players for 2009-10 anyway.  Parrom, Lawrence are wings so the position issue should not be a factor.  Why not take the player now instead of waiting a year?  The best players should play.  IMO you can never have enough good players on the team.  The cream rises.  This sounds like a really good prospect and someone we can groom to replace Mason.  Edmonson and Roberts may be only backup type role players.  Every good team needs those as well.  

I would question the Stith offer more than the Williams offer.   I think we desparately need another scorer to be competitive next year.  We lost a big weapon in Larry Wright.  Horne and Kennedy are good players but I think this Williams kid could be that third option we need.  I'm tired of St John's struggling to score in the 50s.

Well if Roberts and Edmondson aren't near the caliber of Williams than why did we jump the gun to sign them? Why weren't we on Williams earlier then? Its poor management all around. I'm really not making a strong case against Williams but I'm making my point with we should or should have left 1 scholarship for next season in addition to the ones opening up due to graduation.

I don't think Williams is much better if better than Quincy Roberts. I don't know an overwhelming amount about either except a lot of write ups and some videos but we need better management of the scholarship distribution. Last year we took bpa whenever they were available out of necessity but I think we're slightly past panic mode. We have a decent core to build around but we need to keep schollies open to land the bigger fish. This is why I wanted JUCOs after striking out with the big fish as a 2yr commitment can help balance the roster better than 4 year.

I'm also curious what was told to each of these before they signed. Where did Norm see them fit? What was promised?

Since we lost 2 guards to transfer and Geno to graduation, aren't we just replacing what we lost?  Edmonson, Roberts, and Williams replace Wright, Cavatio, and Lawrence.  No?

Wait adds a much needed big man.  Willams didn't really blow up until recently.  Can't blame the staff for being late on him when not many others were involved either.  I'm hearing that this kid is the hottest name out there now and that there are a lot of schools trying to get in the mix.  We were going after Kilpatrick and this kid seems to have similar skills, so what's the difference? 

I agree that if we are ever going to get to the level we want to be at, we will need to start landing more star players.  At this point though, we're not beating out the big boys for those guys so we have to hope that we can bring in enough good players, have enough depth and hit on a couple of sleepers and under -recruited, under the radar type guys.  I'm hoping this Williams kid and maybe Wait will be able to make an impact.  If they end up being at least as good as Kennedy and Evans were for us last year, then we'll at least have a very deep team.  The key will be how far Mason and Burrell can take us and whether someone else can step up and be that third scoring option. 

I also agree regarding the scholarship management issue but I just think Norm was replacing what he lost and trying to bring in as many scorers as he could along with the big man.  Can't say I'm happy about the way this class ended up, (with all the city talent going elsewhere) but it at least shows that the staff is resilient, that they continue to work hard, and that they are not limiting themselves geographically.  Hopefully this pays off for us.  It's a make or break year for Norm so something has to give.   

He lost what he had because of bringing in too many guys at once....shouldn't we learn from our mistakes?

Edmondson and Roberts replace Geno and Wright agreed however I feel Wait replaces Cavataio which makes so much sense for roster management and rotations. There is no need for Williams unless he is a superstud impact player from day 1 and I just don't think he is better than what we have or what we have coming in.

He lost what he had because of bringing in too many guys at once....shouldn't we learn from our mistakes?

Edmondson and Roberts replace Geno and Wright agreed however I feel Wait replaces Cavataio which makes so much sense for roster management and rotations. There is no need for Williams unless he is a superstud impact player from day 1 and I just don't think he is better than what we have or what we have coming in.

I agree with JJ, with so much talent in next years class (especially in nyc) we need as many open ships as possible regardless of who the coach is.

Quote from: JJ on June 17, 2008, 01:08:36 PM

He lost what he had because of bringing in too many guys at once....shouldn't we learn from our mistakes?

Edmondson and Roberts replace Geno and Wright agreed however I feel Wait replaces Cavataio which makes so much sense for roster management and rotations. There is no need for Williams unless he is a superstud impact player from day 1 and I just don't think he is better than what we have or what we have coming in.

I agree with JJ, with so much talent in next years class (especially in nyc) we need as many open ships as possible regardless of who the coach is.

Do you mean '09 or '10?

IMO ... I say save the ship unless Williams is better than someone we currently have. That being said... with all these guards we have going into the new season... I would like to see NR use some more pressure and trap defenses this year to try and create some turnovers (and hopefully easy baskets if our team can finish!).

Pressure and trap?  Might be nice, but Norm hasn't had an inclination for sideline traps, just pressure on the point guard in the back court.  It would be nice to see a variety of defenses.  Some zone, even... if the staff can teach it properly.