Lavin's Recruiting strategy

Quote from: SJUFAN on August 22, 2014, 03:52:59 PM

Quote from: Poison on August 22, 2014, 03:49:32 PM

Roberts was a disease far worse than anything Mike Jarvis, or any one person ever did to SJU.

I wouldn't go that far now, Jarvis was the root cause of the programs demise. We shouldn't ever speak his name again.
Just refer to him as he who shall remain nameless.

Bullshit he was. He coached them to an elite 8, and to a BE tournament championship. He certainly imploded, because he couldn't handle that you have to kiss the asses of these punk 17 year olds. That's part of the job. He didn't care, and that's why he's no longer coaching.

He who shall remain nameless was a far superior coach than Roberts no question, but like you said, he imploded, and took the program with him.

Quote from: SJUFAN on August 22, 2014, 03:45:18 PM

Quote from: cjfish on August 22, 2014, 03:04:47 PM

Roberts was exactly what was needed at the time. He is a straight arrow and ran a clean program.  After the strip club fiasco the program was dismal, no kid wanted to go there.  Roberts had to recruit  third tier players and his  teams slowly improved.  SJU had little to offer in those years, Im sure kids looked at the club incident and it was brought up by other schools as a reason to not go to SJU.  Criticism of Roberts is unfounded.   

Lets get this straight, the position of the program had zero to do with Roberts recruiting third tier players. It had to do with Roberts, period. You think the fact that prior players went to a strip club is a reason a recruit wouldn't want to come to the school? That couldn't be further from the truth. Many young males go to strip clubs, so what. Baylor had players murdering each other and that didn't stop them from bringing in top recruits. If we could have hired a Cal, Pitino, etc we would have had a top 5 recruiting class in two years. Pitino got Jamaal Mashburn to sign with Kentucky while they were on probation! Its the coach that brings in the players, Roberts had so much to offer recruits his first couple of years, he just couldn't close.

Baylor and Kentucky pay their players. If Roberts had had their budgets he'd have recruited better.

True....maybe those schools are bad examples. However the premise of my statement still holds true. If we could have brought in a Coach K, Larry Brown, etc etc, any credible coach, we could have recovered much sooner.

Quote from: Poison on August 22, 2014, 03:54:52 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on August 22, 2014, 03:52:59 PM

Quote from: Poison on August 22, 2014, 03:49:32 PM

Roberts was a disease far worse than anything Mike Jarvis, or any one person ever did to SJU.

I wouldn't go that far now, Jarvis was the root cause of the programs demise. We shouldn't ever speak his name again.
Just refer to him as he who shall remain nameless.

Bullshit he was. He coached them to an elite 8, and to a BE tournament championship. He certainly imploded, because he couldn't handle that you have to kiss the asses of these punk 17 year olds. That's part of the job. He didn't care, and that's why he's no longer coaching.

He who shall remain nameless was a far superior coach than Roberts no question, but like you said, he imploded, and took the program with him.

If they fired Jarvis after the season, it could have been rebuilt in 1-2 years, juts like Baylor was. And Baylor actually had a legitimate situation. Why is it that everyone forgets that the Pittsburgh scandal happened after Jarvis was fired. Harry caused 100% of the program's downfall. But at least he was an honest president.

Deja vu...all over again!

Comparative Negligence

Jarvis 60%     Harry40%
                 or
Harry60%     Jarvis40%

Jarvis could coach.  For a period, we recruited well under him, although I don't know if that had more to do with the success of the program and the assistants who were recruiting for Jarvis.  And then everything went to hell, and Jarvis seemed to not be concerned with the implosion.

Related note, since we are talking about past coaches.  Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week.  Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job.  I had never heard that before.  Any idea where that falls in the timeline?  Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.

Jarvis could coach.  For a period, we recruited well under him, although I don't know if that had more to do with the success of the program and the assistants who were recruiting for Jarvis.  And then everything went to hell, and Jarvis seemed to not be concerned with the implosion.

Related note, since we are talking about past coaches.  Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week.  Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job.  I had never heard that before.  Any idea where that falls in the timeline?  Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.

Jarvis could coach.  For a period, we recruited well under him, although I don't know if that had more to do with the success of the program and the assistants who were recruiting for Jarvis.  And then everything went to hell, and Jarvis seemed to not be concerned with the implosion.

Related note, since we are talking about past coaches.  Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week.  Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job.  I had never heard that before.  Any idea where that falls in the timeline?  Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.

If true and it fell apart cause Majerus got involved with N Carolina I guess it was the old how dare he even think about anything but SJU {see FF}.

I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was.  No hope.   None.  You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one.  Nope...not even close.  He would have ruined the next year as well.  I have no doubt.

It took Dunlap's ridiculous zone and Lavin centering the team around Hardy at the point (gotta give the guy credit) and Brownlee to turn them into what they were.  Norm couldn't even figure out that Hardy was the star.  Problem is now that the long leash Lavin gave Brownlee is the same he gives to Dom and expects the same results. 

Related note, since we are talking about past coaches.  Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week.  Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job.  I had never heard that before.  Any idea where that falls in the timeline?  Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.

The evidence suggests Francessa is talking out his enormous ass.

Dean Smith retired in 1997.
Gurthridge: 1997-2000
Doh: 2000-2003
Williams: 2003 - ?

Fran: 1996-1998
Jarhead: 1998-2003
(Kevin Clark)
Norm: 2004-2010

Majerus: left Utah at the end of the 03-04 season for "health reasons" and subsequently took the HC job at USC in December 2004 - his "dream job" he called it - from which he resigned 5 days later - also for health reasons, although he later changed his story and said he resigned because his mother said California was too far from Wisconsin, which makes little sense, as it's only 700 miles from Salt Lake to LA, but whatever.

For this scenario to fit it - and the dates don't really work - it must be that Majerus resigned from Utah for health reasons, then resigned from his dream job at USC for health reasons, then almost accepted the SJU job, then change his mind and considered the NC job, which ended up going to Roy Williams (except Williams had been hired a year earlier) and SJU ended up with Norm.

So to recap: nonsense.


 

I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was.  No hope.   None.  You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one.  Nope...not even close.  He would have ruined the next year as well.  I have no doubt.

It took Dunlap's ridiculous zone and Lavin centering the team around Hardy at the point (gotta give the guy credit) and Brownlee to turn them into what they were.  Norm couldn't even figure out that Hardy was the star.  Problem is now that the long leash Lavin gave Brownlee is the same he gives to Dom and expects the same results. 

We can blame Lavin for quite a bit, but Dom needs to grow up.

My guess is we wouldn't be rehashing all this if Lavin had delivered as expected.

I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was.  No hope.   None.  You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one.  Nope...not even close.  He would have ruined the next year as well.  I have no doubt.

I agree, it's a shame Steve Lavin couldn't take last year's junior laden team to the NCAA tournament - especially since many of those top 100 out of HS juniors played huge minutes from day one, and not to mention the addition of valuable upper class men like AA JUCO GG Achiewa and Utah Jazz starting forward O Sanchez. It reveals real shortcomings in Lavin's coaching ability. Probably any other coach in the country would have made the tournament with that roster.

Quote from: prjohnnies on August 22, 2014, 07:08:17 PM

Related note, since we are talking about past coaches.  Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week.  Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job.  I had never heard that before.  Any idea where that falls in the timeline?  Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.

The evidence suggests Francessa is talking out his enormous ass.

Dean Smith retired in 1997.
Gurthridge: 1997-2000
Doh: 2000-2003
Williams: 2003 - ?

Fran: 1996-1998
Jarhead: 1998-2003
(Kevin Clark)
Norm: 2004-2010

Majerus: left Utah at the end of the 03-04 season for "health reasons" and subsequently took the HC job at USC in December 2004 - his "dream job" he called it - from which he resigned 5 days later - also for health reasons, although he later changed his story and said he resigned because his mother said California was too far from Wisconsin, which makes little sense, as it's only 700 miles from Salt Lake to LA, but whatever.

For this scenario to fit it - and the dates don't really work - it must be that Majerus resigned from Utah for health reasons, then resigned from his dream job at USC for health reasons, then almost accepted the SJU job, then change his mind and considered the NC job, which ended up going to Roy Williams (except Williams had been hired a year earlier) and SJU ended up with Norm.

So to recap: nonsense.


 

I know nothing about the Majerus situation that was presented at the time....but the fact that he coached through the 04 season in no way means he could not have flirted with taking the St. John's job or the UNC job prior to leaving Utah.  I know how unheard of it is for a coach to leave before a contract is up, but believe it or not, it has happened before
If anything, I'd say your timeline only supports Fatcessa's theory.  Him leaving Utah in 04 means it was possible if not likely that he considered leaving a year earlier, when a good HC job opened up (us) and a fantastic job opened up (UNC).  Again, I know nothing about the situation, and I am NOT a fan of Fatcessa, but it certainly seems like what he's saying could possibly have been true.

Quote from: Foad on August 23, 2014, 07:01:30 AM

Quote from: prjohnnies on August 22, 2014, 07:08:17 PM

Related note, since we are talking about past coaches.  Some of may have heard Calipari on Francessa's show earlier in the week.  Francessa told Rick Majerus was close to taking the St. John's job, with Slice as his lead assistant to recruit, but that it fell apart when North Carolina made overtures about Majerus taking that job.  I had never heard that before.  Any idea where that falls in the timeline?  Sometime before UNC hired Matt D is my guess.

The evidence suggests Francessa is talking out his enormous ass.

Dean Smith retired in 1997.
Gurthridge: 1997-2000
Doh: 2000-2003
Williams: 2003 - ?

Fran: 1996-1998
Jarhead: 1998-2003
(Kevin Clark)
Norm: 2004-2010

Majerus: left Utah at the end of the 03-04 season for "health reasons" and subsequently took the HC job at USC in December 2004 - his "dream job" he called it - from which he resigned 5 days later - also for health reasons, although he later changed his story and said he resigned because his mother said California was too far from Wisconsin, which makes little sense, as it's only 700 miles from Salt Lake to LA, but whatever.

For this scenario to fit it - and the dates don't really work - it must be that Majerus resigned from Utah for health reasons, then resigned from his dream job at USC for health reasons, then almost accepted the SJU job, then change his mind and considered the NC job, which ended up going to Roy Williams (except Williams had been hired a year earlier) and SJU ended up with Norm.

So to recap: nonsense.


 

I know nothing about the Majerus situation that was presented at the time....but the fact that he coached through the 04 season in no way means he could not have flirted with taking the St. John's job or the UNC job prior to leaving Utah.  I know how unheard of it is for a coach to leave before a contract is up, but believe it or not, it has happened before
If anything, I'd say your timeline only supports Fatcessa's theory.  Him leaving Utah in 04 means it was possible if not likely that he considered leaving a year earlier, when a good HC job opened up (us) and a fantastic job opened up (UNC).  Again, I know nothing about the situation, and I am NOT a fan of Fatcessa, but it certainly seems like what he's saying could possibly have been true.

Your theories:

Scenario 1:

Rick Majerus was the choice to replace Fran at SJU n 1998, before Jarhead was hired, but he spurned SJU because UNC approached him to replace Dean Smith's hand picked successor Bill Guthridge, a year into his tenure, coming off a Final Four appearance.

Scenario 2: 

Sometime in 2003: while at Utah Rick Majerus is approached by both UNC, to replace Mat Doh!, and by SJU, to replace the Jarvae
April 2003: Roy Williams hired at UNC to replace Matt Doh!
December 2003: Mike Jarvis fired, replaced by Kevin Clark
March 2004: Kevin Clark relieved of duties
April 2004: Majerus resigns from Utah because his heart keeps exploding
April 2004: Majerus spurns SJU, having been approached by UNC to replace either (a) Matt Doh! in 2003 or (b) Roy Williams
April 2004: Roberts hired
December 2004: Majerus resigns USC "dream job" because his heart keeps exploding

One of these scenarios you believe "could possibly have been true," because you "know nothing about the .. situation."

Thanks for playing.

Quote from: Marillac on August 23, 2014, 06:58:10 AM

I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was.  No hope.   None.  You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one.  Nope...not even close.  He would have ruined the next year as well.  I have no doubt.

I agree, it's a shame Steve Lavin couldn't take last year's junior laden team to the NCAA tournament - especially since many of those top 100 out of HS juniors played huge minutes from day one, and not to mention the addition of valuable upper class men like AA JUCO GG Achiewa and Utah Jazz starting forward O Sanchez. It reveals real shortcomings in Lavin's coaching ability. Probably any other coach in the country would have made the tournament with that roster.

GG was a D-2 JUCO AA...big difference.  Coach started a freshman PG, a soph PF, and, at times, a soph center. He didn't have a single senior that played all four years.  Norm had a top 75 5th year senior to add to those juniors...perhaps other seniors but I don't want to remember the pain aymore than I have to. 

Quote from: Foad on August 23, 2014, 08:04:19 AM

Quote from: Marillac on August 23, 2014, 06:58:10 AM

I don't even know where this thread is currently at, but I saw Roberts and I felt compelled to post just how truly awful he was.  No hope.   None.  You'd think any coach in the country would have made the tournament with that many juniors--most who played huge minutes since day one.  Nope...not even close.  He would have ruined the next year as well.  I have no doubt.

I agree, it's a shame Steve Lavin couldn't take last year's junior laden team to the NCAA tournament - especially since many of those top 100 out of HS juniors played huge minutes from day one, and not to mention the addition of valuable upper class men like AA JUCO GG Achiewa and Utah Jazz starting forward O Sanchez. It reveals real shortcomings in Lavin's coaching ability. Probably any other coach in the country would have made the tournament with that roster.

GG was a D-2 JUCO AA...big difference.  Coach started a freshman PG, a soph PF, and, at times, a soph center. He didn't have a single senior that played all four years.  Norm had a top 75 5th year senior to add to those juniors...perhaps other seniors but I don't want to remember the pain aymore than I have to. 

Plus Roberts had Malik Stith. He was really fast.

One of these scenarios you believe "could possibly have been true," because you "know nothing about the .. situation."

Thanks for playing.

Neither of those things are what I was suggesting, but thank you for playing.

Quote from: Johnny23 on August 22, 2014, 03:53:56 PM

Jarvis single-handedly ran this program into the ground. He took all of the good work that Fraschilla did in and obliterated it. He had that pompous attitude and all the city coaches said they never saw him at any of their games. He took a program that was almost always relevant and made them irrelevant.

Actually, Father Harrington ran this program into the ground when he expelled 3 players for doing what schools like Kentucky and Uconn consider to be just a typical night out.

Under Mike Jarvis, how many post season tournaments did STJ make? I count 3. The NCAAs 3 times. One year, they went 8-8, and didn't make the post season. That's only because he scheduled a real non conference schedule. Say what you want about his personality, or his recruiting, but he coached STJ to more post season success than anyone since Lou C. And it's not even close.

Jarvis was a cancer.  If you are a young kid and you see players getting expelled for normal 19 year old behavior you will stay away from the program.  RE the first Lavin/Dunlap team, the team, maturity and poise of that minimally-talented team did not come overnight as suggested above.  Harrington wanted a clean program, he got it, but clean does not lead to success.  All the major programs are dirty but some are lucky and hide  it well

Jarvis went 152-90 with four NCAA appearances (one sweet 16) at GW.  Then he was 110-61 at SJU with three NCAAs (one elite and an NIT win.  I really doubt Lavin could have done as well with what he had to work with.  Fraschilla maybe  Lavin no way.  Jarvis did implode but his record speaks for itself.  Firing Fran was probably the key mistake out of so many by our fabulous sports staff. Jarvis at least had credentials when he was hired.  That was the opposite of Roberts who had the shoes to claim credit for Self's achievements.  What a sad story and it ain't over yet.

To be accurate 46 of Jarvis's wins have been vacated for Abe freakin' Keita.  I mean Keita didn't even learn the Jarvis weave and chuck offense and look what he cost the esteemed Uncle Phil.  Jarvis did coach good defense but once Fran's recruits left his shortcomings in offense and player motivation became apparent, besides being a POS person.  THE WORST THING that has happened to the STJ basketball program was Marcus Hatten carrying the 2003 team to the NIT Championship.  A first round loss and 15-14 record and Jarvis is fired.  No Pittsburgh, No Norm, No disruption to recruiting.  Not saying the admin at that time would have made a great hire but the job would have been attractive enough for a good hire in  the old big east.  Heck with a starting five of Hill, Ingram, Hamilton, Cuffe and Reynolds a NEW coach might have even beat Fairfield and Hofstra.