Keith Thomas Impact

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 06:58:01 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 06:06:15 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 05:02:57 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 04:36:03 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can't put 100% of the blame on St.John's in this case. Especially seeing that this is the 5th recruit that this staff hasn't followed through on. What is wrong with them? Are they lazy, careless or just incompetent?

You really are thick.  This is totally different than the other situations - how would SJU ever know about an internal WCC scandal?  It'd be like if we took a transfer from UNC who is now ineligible bc of the "paper" classes.  Would that be our fault too?

Let me get this straight, you're saying that due diligence isn't possible?

You may be hopeless.  You seem like a smart guy.  Tell me, how would due diligence have uncovered that a WCC employee was falsifying transcripts?  But yeah, you're right, St. John's should have sensed by osmosis or ESP that Keith's grades may have been falsified, right?

I may be hopeless, but not because of this. It seems to me that if you're bringing in a 23 year old junior with a record, that you'd be really f'n careful. Is this not why we have a compliance department or team?

Regarding the "record" c'mon Poison - we know it wasn't a huge infraction at all. Don't throw that in for effect....

Regardless of how any of us feel about St.John's and their role in this, if Thomas' degree from WCC is forged, then clearly he knows it's forged. If he's innocent, why wouldn't he be defending his name? He's 23. That's an adult. But he's mum. That says a lot to me.

If there is a spark with this program, it always becomes a fire.

Quote from: bball purist on October 29, 2014, 12:12:21 AM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 06:58:01 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 06:06:15 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 05:02:57 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 04:36:03 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can't put 100% of the blame on St.John's in this case. Especially seeing that this is the 5th recruit that this staff hasn't followed through on. What is wrong with them? Are they lazy, careless or just incompetent?

You really are thick.  This is totally different than the other situations - how would SJU ever know about an internal WCC scandal?  It'd be like if we took a transfer from UNC who is now ineligible bc of the "paper" classes.  Would that be our fault too?

Let me get this straight, you're saying that due diligence isn't possible?

You may be hopeless.  You seem like a smart guy.  Tell me, how would due diligence have uncovered that a WCC employee was falsifying transcripts?  But yeah, you're right, St. John's should have sensed by osmosis or ESP that Keith's grades may have been falsified, right?

I may be hopeless, but not because of this. It seems to me that if you're bringing in a 23 year old junior with a record, that you'd be really f'n careful. Is this not why we have a compliance department or team?

Regarding the "record" c'mon Poison - we know it wasn't a huge infraction at all. Don't throw that in for effect....

Regardless of how any of us feel about St.John's and their role in this, if Thomas' degree from WCC is forged, then clearly he knows it's forged. If he's innocent, why wouldn't he be defending his name? He's 23. That's an adult. But he's mum. That says a lot to me.

If there is a spark with this program, it always becomes a fire.

I think there might be 2 reasons for this.  One, he may have been told by St. John's not to say anything until after they finish their investigation.  Srcondly, his name has only come up as speculation.  His transcript has not yet been identified as one that was tampered with.  So to me why would you defend yourself for something you have not been accused of.

Hopefully this is just an isolated incident, but if it is not this is another ball eye for the program. It doesn't matter if SJU and Lavin had nothing to do with it. Lavin was hired to rebuild a dormant program and he has had very mixed results this far, with a lot of player issue or potential issues...We almost lost CO as well, untill he decided he did not want to sit out the season.

Questions will arise again on Student eligibility issues, why didn't Lavin recruit more front court help, why did Lavin go after somebody with a questionable past? Where is his back up plan?

These are the what if questions if Thomas is ruled inelgiable.

Missing the tournament last year hurt not only the school but the BE. There was another hit piece on ESPN (few days ago) about the lackluster BE... SJU is not only fighting for relevance again but for the legitimacy of the BE.  It does get tiring to constantly have to worry about athlete issues year in and year out, with little to show for it on the court...Hopefully this is nothing, but I am damn tired of saying hopefully with SJU BB.

A couple of things that I don't understand about this story:

1) How does an assistant coach even have the opportunity to forge a transcript?  Transcript requests go straight to the registrars office, are filled there, and sent directly to the new school. Transcripts never cross the coaches' desks, if they did half of the athletes in the NCAA would have fraudulent documents.

2) I agree that this was largely beyond the purview of SJU's compliance office.  But the allegations against the famu players is that they took only 1 class and their transcripts said they earned a full degree.   That's not a slightly altered document, that's essentially never taking any classes.
If something like that occurred, it begs the question: how do you recruit a player for 6 months or longer, visit him repeatedly, speak to the people around him, his coaches and family, and not know that the guy isn't taking any classes??   Not having any credits is very very different than being a class or two short of the eligibility requirements.

Right now the Florida atlantic staff looks like fools for this reason.  Hopefully Keith is a more honest student, and he's just being looked into because of his association with wcc.

In all seriousness how dumb must you be to need to cheat at WCC?

Quote from: Poison on October 29, 2014, 01:16:27 AM

Quote from: bball purist on October 29, 2014, 12:12:21 AM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 06:58:01 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 06:06:15 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 05:02:57 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 04:36:03 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can't put 100% of the blame on St.John's in this case. Especially seeing that this is the 5th recruit that this staff hasn't followed through on. What is wrong with them? Are they lazy, careless or just incompetent?

You really are thick.  This is totally different than the other situations - how would SJU ever know about an internal WCC scandal?  It'd be like if we took a transfer from UNC who is now ineligible bc of the "paper" classes.  Would that be our fault too?

Let me get this straight, you're saying that due diligence isn't possible?

You may be hopeless.  You seem like a smart guy.  Tell me, how would due diligence have uncovered that a WCC employee was falsifying transcripts?  But yeah, you're right, St. John's should have sensed by osmosis or ESP that Keith's grades may have been falsified, right?

I may be hopeless, but not because of this. It seems to me that if you're bringing in a 23 year old junior with a record, that you'd be really f'n careful. Is this not why we have a compliance department or team?

Regarding the "record" c'mon Poison - we know it wasn't a huge infraction at all. Don't throw that in for effect....

Regardless of how any of us feel about St.John's and their role in this, if Thomas' degree from WCC is forged, then clearly he knows it's forged. If he's innocent, why wouldn't he be defending his name? He's 23. That's an adult. But he's mum. That says a lot to me.

If there is a spark with this program, it always becomes a fire.

I think there might be 2 reasons for this.  One, he may have been told by St. John's not to say anything until after they finish their investigation.  Srcondly, his name has only come up as speculation.  His transcript has not yet been identified as one that was tampered with.  So to me why would you defend yourself for something you have not been accused of.

I'm no lawyer, but if you're innocent you have no reason to be quiet. This is a pretty bad example of a lesson well learned. So much for second chances.

Quote from: stjohns86 on October 29, 2014, 01:27:19 AM

Quote from: Poison on October 29, 2014, 01:16:27 AM

Quote from: bball purist on October 29, 2014, 12:12:21 AM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 06:58:01 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 06:06:15 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 05:02:57 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 04:36:03 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can't put 100% of the blame on St.John's in this case. Especially seeing that this is the 5th recruit that this staff hasn't followed through on. What is wrong with them? Are they lazy, careless or just incompetent?

You really are thick.  This is totally different than the other situations - how would SJU ever know about an internal WCC scandal?  It'd be like if we took a transfer from UNC who is now ineligible bc of the "paper" classes.  Would that be our fault too?

Let me get this straight, you're saying that due diligence isn't possible?

You may be hopeless.  You seem like a smart guy.  Tell me, how would due diligence have uncovered that a WCC employee was falsifying transcripts?  But yeah, you're right, St. John's should have sensed by osmosis or ESP that Keith's grades may have been falsified, right?

I may be hopeless, but not because of this. It seems to me that if you're bringing in a 23 year old junior with a record, that you'd be really f'n careful. Is this not why we have a compliance department or team?

Regarding the "record" c'mon Poison - we know it wasn't a huge infraction at all. Don't throw that in for effect....

Regardless of how any of us feel about St.John's and their role in this, if Thomas' degree from WCC is forged, then clearly he knows it's forged. If he's innocent, why wouldn't he be defending his name? He's 23. That's an adult. But he's mum. That says a lot to me.

If there is a spark with this program, it always becomes a fire.

I think there might be 2 reasons for this.  One, he may have been told by St. John's not to say anything until after they finish their investigation.  Srcondly, his name has only come up as speculation.  His transcript has not yet been identified as one that was tampered with.  So to me why would you defend yourself for something you have not been accused of.

I'm no lawyer, but if you're innocent you have no reason to be quiet. This is a pretty bad example of a lesson well learned. So much for second chances.

Can we just wait a second Poison, there hasnt been a decision made on Keith yet.  When there is one, then go ahead and be pissed or happy. No sense in belittling a kid before we even know weather or not hes done something wrong.

Fire Norm!

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

Not sure if you can pin this on compliance or not, but coaching staffs who were recruiting or thinking of recruiting Thomas in the spring knew the kid was a roll of the dice in terms of whether he would qualify academically or not.  While SJU likely had no clue of the transcript fraud, Thomas has been a bit of a question mark since schools started going after him.

Was just informed by a VERY reliable source inside the program that his transcript was tampered with and he is in fact ineligible to play this season. This team's chances just took a very big hit. I really feel bad for the seniors they don't deserve this.

@AdamZagoria: Keith Thomas ruled academically ineligible at St. John's. Story coming.

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

Isn't it their job to stay on top of things like this. The idea is to get ahead of these things before they get dumped in your lap at the last minute.

You've got to be freaking kidding me. This kind of thing never ends with this school. No wonder Monasch didn't allow any questions at the under armour event last night

Quote from: Poison on October 29, 2014, 08:10:01 AM

Quote from: stjohns86 on October 29, 2014, 01:27:19 AM

Quote from: Poison on October 29, 2014, 01:16:27 AM

Quote from: bball purist on October 29, 2014, 12:12:21 AM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 06:58:01 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 06:06:15 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 05:02:57 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on October 28, 2014, 04:40:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 04:36:03 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

I don't see how anyone in their right mind can't put 100% of the blame on St.John's in this case. Especially seeing that this is the 5th recruit that this staff hasn't followed through on. What is wrong with them? Are they lazy, careless or just incompetent?

You really are thick.  This is totally different than the other situations - how would SJU ever know about an internal WCC scandal?  It'd be like if we took a transfer from UNC who is now ineligible bc of the "paper" classes.  Would that be our fault too?

Let me get this straight, you're saying that due diligence isn't possible?

You may be hopeless.  You seem like a smart guy.  Tell me, how would due diligence have uncovered that a WCC employee was falsifying transcripts?  But yeah, you're right, St. John's should have sensed by osmosis or ESP that Keith's grades may have been falsified, right?

I may be hopeless, but not because of this. It seems to me that if you're bringing in a 23 year old junior with a record, that you'd be really f'n careful. Is this not why we have a compliance department or team?

Regarding the "record" c'mon Poison - we know it wasn't a huge infraction at all. Don't throw that in for effect....

Regardless of how any of us feel about St.John's and their role in this, if Thomas' degree from WCC is forged, then clearly he knows it's forged. If he's innocent, why wouldn't he be defending his name? He's 23. That's an adult. But he's mum. That says a lot to me.

If there is a spark with this program, it always becomes a fire.

I think there might be 2 reasons for this.  One, he may have been told by St. John's not to say anything until after they finish their investigation.  Srcondly, his name has only come up as speculation.  His transcript has not yet been identified as one that was tampered with.  So to me why would you defend yourself for something you have not been accused of.

I'm no lawyer, but if you're innocent you have no reason to be quiet. This is a pretty bad example of a lesson well learned. So much for second chances.

Can we just wait a second Poison, there hasnt been a decision made on Keith yet.  When there is one, then go ahead and be pissed or happy. No sense in belittling a kid before we even know weather or not hes done something wrong.

Please proceed..

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

Isn't it their job to stay on top of things like this. The idea is to get ahead of these things before they get dumped in your lap at the last minute.

So you think a staff of one person, maybe two should travel to every school of every recruit to make sure kids are going to school, and assistant coaches aren't messing with transcripts?

Now if this happened on SJU's campus I would agree with you.

To me only the students and coaches involved in the scandal should be blamed. Maybe I'm way off though.

Does this affect recruiting?

I guess we'll see a lot of dom at the 4.  That might actually be good for him on offense.  On defense he'll be giving up size, but he's pretty tenacious, even if he has a weak hook. 

Quote from: derk on October 29, 2014, 02:24:21 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

Isn't it their job to stay on top of things like this. The idea is to get ahead of these things before they get dumped in your lap at the last minute.

So you think a staff of one person, maybe two should travel to every school of every recruit to make sure kids are going to school, and assistant coaches aren't messing with transcripts?

Now if this happened on SJU's campus I would agree with you.

To me only the students and coaches involved in the scandal should be blamed. Maybe I'm way off though.

There is a difference between changing a few grades on a transcript and making up that the kid went to the school at all.
This case all started because Jarnell Walker took 1 class at WCC and the asst coach made up a full transcript saying he graduated with an associates degree.
If you recruit a kid for a year, visit him multiple times, speak to all the people around him,  then yea, you should know if he's going to school at all.
That's not asking too much.    So, if that's what happened with Keith too, then absolutely the staff needs to be held accountable.
But if there were more minor changes to his transcript, and it got through the clearinghouse, then I can't blame the SJU coaches or compliance.  There's no way they would know about specific grades for 1 or 2 classes.

Quote from: derk on October 29, 2014, 02:24:21 PM

Quote from: stjohnnie75 on October 28, 2014, 04:00:08 PM

Quote from: Poison on October 28, 2014, 03:11:32 PM

If he isn't eligible to play this season, would St.John's consider firing their compliance team?

How would SJU compliance even know about this? I believe the NCAA clearinghouse cleared Thomas to play.

Isn't it their job to stay on top of things like this. The idea is to get ahead of these things before they get dumped in your lap at the last minute.

So you think a staff of one person, maybe two should travel to every school of every recruit to make sure kids are going to school, and assistant coaches aren't messing with transcripts?

Now if this happened on SJU's campus I would agree with you.

To me only the students and coaches involved in the scandal should be blamed. Maybe I'm way off though.

There were rumors about this kid. As we got closer to offering we had to lock down any uncertainties that might have existed. He was a troubled kid in many ways. Assistant coaches should have enough contacts to be able to ward off this kind of thing. I'm not talking about knowing the life story of some kid from Montana, but Westchester ? Come on. Bad job.

So If Thomas has not earned aa AA he falls into the category of a non qualifer which would require him  having to sit out a year. But if he was able to earn a bachelors degree in his second year at SJU he could recover that lost year.

A problem here is it would appear that if you miss a year here you automaticly become a potentail super star

Based upon what happened with the two transfers from Monroe a couple of years  ago there was a need to be alert