Reasons to be Optimistic

I'm seeing a lot of people imply that if Lavin can't succeed here, then maybe we need to temper our expectations. And, certainly our recent coaching history suggests that the HC at St Johns isn't an easy job, but it's not impossible. SJU has a lot going in it's favor and I think to a large extend, it is indeed a "sleeping giant".

1) New York
Regardless of whether we are "NY's Team", or not, demographics alone are a huge advantage for St Johns. Our recruiting area in the tri-state is home to 10million people. That's enormous. There are more basketball players in Brooklyn alone than there are in cities like Chicago, Boston, or Miami or in a lot of states. And sure, city basketball might not be what it once was, but that's only because the receent stars - the Lebrons, Kobes, and Durants haven't hailed from NY. But, year in and year out there are a ton of good college players coming out of of our region; more than enough to sustain a successful program, even if we don't land the Lances, the Briscoes, or Kyle Andersons. The "second tier" recruits like Omar Calhoun, Jaren Sina, and Kamari Murphy are the lifeblood of a lot of programs, and should be the backbone of ours.
Lavin is an excellent recruiter (for the most part), but at the end of the day he's a CA guy with national recruiting ties. And we've benefited from those connections for sure. But, the old-timers on here are right. Our program can be supplemented by national recruits, but at the end of the day it should be based on kids from queens, brooklyn, the bronx and northern jersey. We won't get all of them, and we probably won't get the McDonalds All Americans, but there's more than enough to get our share of the rest.

2) $$
The biggest difference between the Norm-era and what we're experiencing now is the resources that are being devoted to the program, both from the University and from donors. Coach Lavin has a very well paid coaching staff, when clearly Norm did not. No expense is being sparred on recruit visits now (the 40-40 club, the dinners, etc), the team stays at better hotels and even stays at a midtown hotel the night before MSG home games, and I can only imagine what the travel budget is now for the coaching staff. Plus, of course, we've shown that we can pay a coach $2mil a year. And that's a big big raise for guys coming from Manhatta, URI, or Buffalo. If this type of support continues we won't fall back to the Norm days.
And with the money we get from Fox now, there's no reason to think it will stop. (assuming the coach doesn't piss-off our friend Mike).

3) Exposure
Say what you want about being overshadowed by the Knicks and Rangers, but there is a lot of truth to the fact that guys like Hardy and Moe got their names out there because they were plastered all over the back-pages of the local sports sections. Between MSG, the media, and Under Armour ... we may not have the exposure of UNC but we are still relevant. And the new Big East, while not the colossus that the old conference was, still has us on a national network, and we're still playing national programs like Georgetown, Villanova, Syracuse, and Duke. The conference in and of itself won't kill this program. It may not propel us, but it's more than stable enough to support St Johns if we do the other things right. Memphis, UNLV, UCONN etc aren't in a Power conference anymore either, and they're still bringing in top 100 recruits, as is Gonzaga, VCU, Providence, San Diego, and Marquette etc.

The bottom-line is that we do not have to settle for being irrelevant. SJU might not have as many built in advantages as Michigan State or Duke, but there are pluses to coaching and playing here. We can rise again. And it doesn't have to take "many years". There is no guarantee that Jordan and Obekpa will be gone, every spring transfer recruits and de-commitments become available, and the hiring of a new coach always creates buzz around a program.

Sorry dude...DOOMED!!!

Not buying any of it..

Being in NY doesn't mean anything anymore.

School isn't going to throw bad money on top bad money...

STJ basketball has zero juice....none.

It's been like this for 10 years.... That isn't an aberration.. That is an outright trend. A trend pointing down.

Like I said...DOOMED!!!!

Lavin was a nice try by the school. It was a last ditch effort to keep the fans thinking we were an elite program.
The fact is w/o UCLA backing him even a very good recruiter stopped recruiting. W/o recruting that left Lavin's coaching as his only weapon. And that gun aint loaded!

Since it became clear that Norm was over his head, I have been calling for us to hire a solid X and O guy who will put down roots here and recruit to his sytem. That is the only way we should go next year.

22 wins and a game or two in the tourney every year. Sign me up right now!!!!!!!!

Also, and Otis deserves credit for this - this is a new administration.    And every indication is that president Gemepshaw "gets it".

we always ate at the best restaurants, stayed at the nicest hotels, traveled via charter flights....this began in the Jarvis era.
there was unlimited gear from Nike and Jordan.
there was also a stipend to give the kids, which i feel always helped us compete with recruiting against the big schools.  that is gone.  those NY kids we always say we used to get but arent getting any more; they came to SJU got a fat stipend check every month (more if they lived at home) and that was a huge advantage.
we are paying Lavin 2 million a year, and look at where thats gotten us.  he doesnt even work.  he lives in Manhattan and hates coming to campus.  He is a joke.
The bottom line is as we sink further and further into the abyss, there really is nothing to be optomistic about because with this clueless athletic dept and administration i firmly believe that in five years we will be having the same discussion because the right coach wont be hired and we will besaying " i cant believe we are back here again".

Not buying any of it..

Being in NY doesn't mean anything anymore.

School isn't going to throw bad money on top bad money...

STJ basketball has zero juice....none.

It's been like this for 10 years.... That isn't an aberration.. That is an outright trend. A trend pointing down.

For most of those years we weren't investing in the program, didn't have fox sports $$, and had Harrington in-charge.   

And that gun aint loaded!

It's loaded and pointed at his own head.

The program had pleanty of juice Lavin's first year. He followed that up with a top five recruiting class after year 1. CO, Sampson and a top 100 transfrer in Branch in year 2. A top 20 player in year 3. The program was heading in the right direction. The problem is now you need to show progress with that talent, not making the tourney last year slowed down our momentum, taking off 2014 for recruiting slowed us down even more. We can be successful, we need the right staff in place to do so.   

Otis is right SJU BBall was just a symptom of an overall problem at St. John's. The new President is more engaged and ready to dig into the weeds of the school and find out what works and what doesn't. Just by the facebook posts from SJU he already been around to more campus activities then Father Harrington did in his entire tenure. There are pictures with h with the Volley ball team.

This is a good thing and it will take time. I do think there is a lot of positives about SJU in NYC and I do believe SJU can rise again with the support of an engage president. I'm the entire history of SJU the continuous struggles of the team happend under one President who went through five coaches, I dare say more then every other President combined or close to it. The reason why this does not seem like an anomaly is because Harrington was President for 24 years which is double the time then a normal President at a university.
With the right leadership in place and living in NYC there is always hope.

Otis is right SJU BBall was just a symptom of an overall problem at St. John's. The new President is more engaged and ready to dig into the weeds of the school and find out what works and what doesn't. Just by the facebook posts from SJU he already been around to more campus activities then Father Harrington did in his entire tenure. There are pictures with h with the Volley ball team.

This is a good thing and it will take time. I do think there is a lot of positives about SJU in NYC and I do believe SJU can rise again with the support of an engage president. I'm the entire history of SJU the continuous struggles of the team happend under one President who went through five coaches, I dare say more then every other President combined or close to it. The reason why this does not seem like an anomaly is because Harrington was President for 24 years which is double the time then a normal President at a university.
With the right leadership in place and living in NYC there is always hope.

I don't buy the Otis rationale.  Lavin was brought in under the old regime and was given more than enough support, resources and $ to create a winning program.  His hiring was a gamble, but even in hindsight, it was one worth taking for the struggling program looking to invigorate its fan base and generate a new buzz among recruits following what was then thought of as the program's dark ages under Norm.  We all know the rest of the story: Started off well enough with a strong first class.  Then the eligibility issues surfaced (and alarmingly continue to do so), then the weak subsequent recruiting classes followed, sandwiched in with consistently "odd" coaching decisions, suspensions and team discipline issues, players exhibiting little or no positive growth during his tenure, and now betting the farm on a bonanza recruiting year that seemingly will not materialize.   The new president appears to have two sane choices regarding Lavin's tenure:  (I) not approve a contract extension (no brainer) or (ii) terminate Lavin early and find a new architect to start rebuilding the team now (not likely, IMO).  Either way, we need to find a new coach that will be able to do more with less than what Lavin was given, as the new BE is certainly less of a draw than playing in the old BE, and the open scholarships next year created by Lavin's inability to recruit last year and this year (so far) don't seem destined to go to players that will replace the talent that we are about to lose. 

I'm seeing a lot of people imply that if Lavin can't succeed here, then maybe we need to temper our expectations. And, certainly our recent coaching history suggests that the HC at St Johns isn't an easy job, but it's not impossible. SJU has a lot going in it's favor and I think to a large extend, it is indeed a "sleeping giant".

1) New York
Regardless of whether we are "NY's Team", or not, demographics alone are a huge advantage for St Johns. Our recruiting area in the tri-state is home to 10million people. That's enormous. There are more basketball players in Brooklyn alone than there are in cities like Chicago, Boston, or Miami or in a lot of states. And sure, city basketball might not be what it once was, but that's only because the receent stars - the Lebrons, Kobes, and Durants haven't hailed from NY. But, year in and year out there are a ton of good college players coming out of of our region; more than enough to sustain a successful program, even if we don't land the Lances, the Briscoes, or Kyle Andersons. The "second tier" recruits like Omar Calhoun, Jaren Sina, and Kamari Murphy are the lifeblood of a lot of programs, and should be the backbone of ours.
Lavin is an excellent recruiter (for the most part), but at the end of the day he's a CA guy with national recruiting ties. And we've benefited from those connections for sure. But, the old-timers on here are right. Our program can be supplemented by national recruits, but at the end of the day it should be based on kids from queens, brooklyn, the bronx and northern jersey. We won't get all of them, and we probably won't get the McDonalds All Americans, but there's more than enough to get our share of the rest.

2) $$
The biggest difference between the Norm-era and what we're experiencing now is the resources that are being devoted to the program, both from the University and from donors. Coach Lavin has a very well paid coaching staff, when clearly Norm did not. No expense is being sparred on recruit visits now (the 40-40 club, the dinners, etc), the team stays at better hotels and even stays at a midtown hotel the night before MSG home games, and I can only imagine what the travel budget is now for the coaching staff. Plus, of course, we've shown that we can pay a coach $2mil a year. And that's a big big raise for guys coming from Manhatta, URI, or Buffalo. If this type of support continues we won't fall back to the Norm days.
And with the money we get from Fox now, there's no reason to think it will stop. (assuming the coach doesn't piss-off our friend Mike).

3) Exposure
Say what you want about being overshadowed by the Knicks and Rangers, but there is a lot of truth to the fact that guys like Hardy and Moe got their names out there because they were plastered all over the back-pages of the local sports sections. Between MSG, the media, and Under Armour ... we may not have the exposure of UNC but we are still relevant. And the new Big East, while not the colossus that the old conference was, still has us on a national network, and we're still playing national programs like Georgetown, Villanova, Syracuse, and Duke. The conference in and of itself won't kill this program. It may not propel us, but it's more than stable enough to support St Johns if we do the other things right. Memphis, UNLV, UCONN etc aren't in a Power conference anymore either, and they're still bringing in top 100 recruits, as is Gonzaga, VCU, Providence, San Diego, and Marquette etc.

The bottom-line is that we do not have to settle for being irrelevant. SJU might not have as many built in advantages as Michigan State or Duke, but there are pluses to coaching and playing here. We can rise again. And it doesn't have to take "many years". There is no guarantee that Jordan and Obekpa will be gone, every spring transfer recruits and de-commitments become available, and the hiring of a new coach always creates buzz around a program.

And, whether you are pro/anti Lavin, he has proven that you can recruit top rated talent to SJ...irrespective of whether they have performed to that level at SJ, they nonetheless were highly rated by independent parties and heavily recruited by high profile schools

Just got home from the game. Team looked good. I had fun. Will  be at the game Monday. Looking forward to Minnesota. Team did not seem flat, they were very confident. We didn't get Briscoe, that sucks. Kill the coach if he doesn't bring anyone in next year.  He recruits well recruiting isn't over. Season is just starting. Enjoy it.

Agree.  I plan to be at the Minn game as well (was there tonight too).  Fingers crossed for a fun season.

Also, and Otis deserves credit for this - this is a new administration.    And every indication is that president Gemepshaw "gets it".

Rationale could go the other way too.  Gempesaw might look at the basketball program as a sunk cost for the university.

Quote from: desco80 on November 14, 2014, 12:38:54 PM

Also, and Otis deserves credit for this - this is a new administration.    And every indication is that president Gemepshaw "gets it".

Rationale could go the other way too.  Gempesaw might look at the basketball program as a sunk cost for the university.

If SJU BB goes down what's the point of having an athletic department...People know SJU because of basketball...In my economics book thigh about monopolies SJU was mentioned in it in how they use to reject the NCAA tournament for the NIT, and how the NCAA went to take over playoff basketball. That's pretty freakin cool if you ask me.

Fran recruited here, Jarvis to some extent recruited here, and to Roberts credit he recruited a team that got into the tournament. The biggest issues has just been a bad combination lack of coaching ability (Roberts) bad character (Jarvis) weird circumstances (Fran). Lavin is right in the middle of all this. The good news is that if he can some how pull this off I think is a coach that can stay here awhile, if not we have to start all over again and that's where I trust Gempesaw.

On the state school front there are plenty of state teams that are horrible and there resources are ridiculous. The big factor is how much does the administration care. UT had three mediocre seasons in a row and boosters and supporters were trying to get him out of town...this is a man who won one NC and made it to another where is start QB got "hurt".   UT never has a problem of players worrying about staying in Texas and not exploring the country.  Hell,  College Station is in the middle of no where (great little Americana town though)  and  Summlin has been bringing in stellar classes since he's been there.

SJU has the right tools to be a solid BB team, it just takes the right coach to bring it together. This takes the right personnel to find the right coach, the personnel need an administration to give a.... That's why we can be optimistic, because we have the right admin I believe who will see the value of SJUBB and understand the tradition and culture of a winning BBall program in NYC.

we always ate at the best restaurants, stayed at the nicest hotels, traveled via charter flights....this began in the Jarvis era.
there was unlimited gear from Nike and Jordan.
there was also a stipend to give the kids, which i feel always helped us compete with recruiting against the big schools.  that is gone.  those NY kids we always say we used to get but arent getting any more; they came to SJU got a fat stipend check every month (more if they lived at home) and that was a huge advantage.
we are paying Lavin 2 million a year, and look at where thats gotten us.  he doesnt even work.  he lives in Manhattan and hates coming to campus.  He is a joke.
The bottom line is as we sink further and further into the abyss, there really is nothing to be optomistic about because with this clueless athletic dept and administration i firmly believe that in five years we will be having the same discussion because the right coach wont be hired and we will besaying " i cant believe we are back here again".

Stipend is not gone.

If SJU BB goes down what's the point of having an athletic department...People know SJU because of basketball...In my economics book thigh about monopolies SJU was mentioned in it in how they use to reject the NCAA tournament for the NIT, and how the NCAA went to take over playoff basketball. That's pretty freakin cool if you ask me.

Interesting. Anything in there about the genyiouses who rejected VHS in favor of Betamax?

I'm seeing a lot of people imply that if Lavin can't succeed here, then maybe we need to temper our expectations. And, certainly our recent coaching history suggests that the HC at St Johns isn't an easy job, but it's not impossible. SJU has a lot going in it's favor and I think to a large extend, it is indeed a "sleeping giant".

1) New York
Regardless of whether we are "NY's Team", or not, demographics alone are a huge advantage for St Johns. Our recruiting area in the tri-state is home to 10million people. That's enormous. There are more basketball players in Brooklyn alone than there are in cities like Chicago, Boston, or Miami or in a lot of states. And sure, city basketball might not be what it once was, but that's only because the receent stars - the Lebrons, Kobes, and Durants haven't hailed from NY. But, year in and year out there are a ton of good college players coming out of of our region; more than enough to sustain a successful program, even if we don't land the Lances, the Briscoes, or Kyle Andersons. The "second tier" recruits like Omar Calhoun, Jaren Sina, and Kamari Murphy are the lifeblood of a lot of programs, and should be the backbone of ours.
Lavin is an excellent recruiter (for the most part), but at the end of the day he's a CA guy with national recruiting ties. And we've benefited from those connections for sure. But, the old-timers on here are right. Our program can be supplemented by national recruits, but at the end of the day it should be based on kids from queens, brooklyn, the bronx and northern jersey. We won't get all of them, and we probably won't get the McDonalds All Americans, but there's more than enough to get our share of the rest.

2) $$
The biggest difference between the Norm-era and what we're experiencing now is the resources that are being devoted to the program, both from the University and from donors. Coach Lavin has a very well paid coaching staff, when clearly Norm did not. No expense is being sparred on recruit visits now (the 40-40 club, the dinners, etc), the team stays at better hotels and even stays at a midtown hotel the night before MSG home games, and I can only imagine what the travel budget is now for the coaching staff. Plus, of course, we've shown that we can pay a coach $2mil a year. And that's a big big raise for guys coming from Manhatta, URI, or Buffalo. If this type of support continues we won't fall back to the Norm days.
And with the money we get from Fox now, there's no reason to think it will stop. (assuming the coach doesn't piss-off our friend Mike).

3) Exposure
Say what you want about being overshadowed by the Knicks and Rangers, but there is a lot of truth to the fact that guys like Hardy and Moe got their names out there because they were plastered all over the back-pages of the local sports sections. Between MSG, the media, and Under Armour ... we may not have the exposure of UNC but we are still relevant. And the new Big East, while not the colossus that the old conference was, still has us on a national network, and we're still playing national programs like Georgetown, Villanova, Syracuse, and Duke. The conference in and of itself won't kill this program. It may not propel us, but it's more than stable enough to support St Johns if we do the other things right. Memphis, UNLV, UCONN etc aren't in a Power conference anymore either, and they're still bringing in top 100 recruits, as is Gonzaga, VCU, Providence, San Diego, and Marquette etc.

The bottom-line is that we do not have to settle for being irrelevant. SJU might not have as many built in advantages as Michigan State or Duke, but there are pluses to coaching and playing here. We can rise again. And it doesn't have to take "many years". There is no guarantee that Jordan and Obekpa will be gone, every spring transfer recruits and de-commitments become available, and the hiring of a new coach always creates buzz around a program.

4. We have the "Syracuse Orange NY's college basketball team" sponsoring our games on the YES network. That can only help our exposure.