Game 27: @ Butler

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 12:12:11 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 15, 2017, 10:49:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM

Quote from: KJ_Django on February 15, 2017, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on February 15, 2017, 09:59:51 PM

Wideman looks like Karl Malone against us.

Keep in mind hes avg 7 points and after going for 20 against us he never had more than 9 after that.

This is why we can't go into next year with Owens Yakwe and Williams as our only 5s and expect to be a tournament team

It's okay. Dave told us size doesn't matter anymore in college. Wideman could have not had a point or rebound and still dominated us. He takes up two bodies in the post and set screens for three straight made treys in the first half.

He's top 3 big man in conference. He could have been contained if Yakwe wasn't looking for butterflies in the sky instead of locating ball.

Height/Weight isn't prohibitive rebounding. Need more emphasis on rebounding as a team. When there is a focus there you've seen positive results.

While a big part of the problem is that the bigs simply just don't box out, another problem is they get bullied and aren't strong enough to keep the opponents bigs from clearing out space and getting the better position.

We can not go into next season without adding a tough big man even if its just a 15 minute a game guy.

The first problem with our rebounding is boxing out. The second part of our problem is that we don't box out. There are other problems, but all of them are meaningless if they don't play from the neck up.

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 12:12:11 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 15, 2017, 10:49:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM

Quote from: KJ_Django on February 15, 2017, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on February 15, 2017, 09:59:51 PM

Wideman looks like Karl Malone against us.

Keep in mind hes avg 7 points and after going for 20 against us he never had more than 9 after that.

This is why we can't go into next year with Owens Yakwe and Williams as our only 5s and expect to be a tournament team

It's okay. Dave told us size doesn't matter anymore in college. Wideman could have not had a point or rebound and still dominated us. He takes up two bodies in the post and set screens for three straight made treys in the first half.

He's top 3 big man in conference. He could have been contained if Yakwe wasn't looking for butterflies in the sky instead of locating ball.

Height/Weight isn't prohibitive rebounding. Need more emphasis on rebounding as a team. When there is a focus there you've seen positive results.

I guess all these top programs are wasting their time spending millions on weight rooms and world class strength and conditioning programs then.

I completely agree with you that we need better team rebounding, but our boys can't handle  men like that under the basket. We need a beast.

Physical maturity will help but again Wideman is a top 3 big man in conference and he's 6'6 to 6'7.

Yes I get it he's more girth than anyone on St John's roster but to my point he's not a classic big.

Quote from: Marillac on February 16, 2017, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 12:12:11 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 15, 2017, 10:49:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM

Quote from: KJ_Django on February 15, 2017, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on February 15, 2017, 09:59:51 PM

Wideman looks like Karl Malone against us.

Keep in mind hes avg 7 points and after going for 20 against us he never had more than 9 after that.

This is why we can't go into next year with Owens Yakwe and Williams as our only 5s and expect to be a tournament team

It's okay. Dave told us size doesn't matter anymore in college. Wideman could have not had a point or rebound and still dominated us. He takes up two bodies in the post and set screens for three straight made treys in the first half.

He's top 3 big man in conference. He could have been contained if Yakwe wasn't looking for butterflies in the sky instead of locating ball.

Height/Weight isn't prohibitive rebounding. Need more emphasis on rebounding as a team. When there is a focus there you've seen positive results.

I guess all these top programs are wasting their time spending millions on weight rooms and world class strength and conditioning programs then.

I completely agree with you that we need better team rebounding, but our boys can't handle  men like that under the basket. We need a beast.

Physical maturity will help but again Wideman is a top 3 big man in conference and he's 6'6 to 6'7.

Yes I get it he's more girth than anyone on St John's roster but to my point he's not a classic big.

Every time we get killed in the paint by the other team's big we can't write it off by saying "well he's a top 3 big man in the conference". That's the type of mentality that keeps programs at the bottom of the standings. If the guys we currently have can't compete with a top 3 big man in the conference get somebody that can

Quote from: Marillac on February 16, 2017, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 12:12:11 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 15, 2017, 10:49:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM

Quote from: KJ_Django on February 15, 2017, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on February 15, 2017, 09:59:51 PM

Wideman looks like Karl Malone against us.

Keep in mind hes avg 7 points and after going for 20 against us he never had more than 9 after that.

This is why we can't go into next year with Owens Yakwe and Williams as our only 5s and expect to be a tournament team

It's okay. Dave told us size doesn't matter anymore in college. Wideman could have not had a point or rebound and still dominated us. He takes up two bodies in the post and set screens for three straight made treys in the first half.

He's top 3 big man in conference. He could have been contained if Yakwe wasn't looking for butterflies in the sky instead of locating ball.

Height/Weight isn't prohibitive rebounding. Need more emphasis on rebounding as a team. When there is a focus there you've seen positive results.

I guess all these top programs are wasting their time spending millions on weight rooms and world class strength and conditioning programs then.

I completely agree with you that we need better team rebounding, but our boys can't handle  men like that under the basket. We need a beast.

Physical maturity will help but again Wideman is a top 3 big man in conference and he's 6'6 to 6'7.

Yes I get it he's more girth than anyone on St John's roster but to my point he's not a classic big.

What is with you and this "classic big" stuff? I never said we need one. What, because I don't like some 6'7 beanpole JUCO from Georgia? We don't need that. We need Wideman or a wide man. We need Ty Grant. I'm not talking about Ewing. Our guys get dominated by stronger teams that  come to play. Delgado, Patton, Wideman twice, all of Georgetown, and plenty of OOC
bigs have made us look foolish. We have to have an answer for next year. Is that really a controversial statement?

We got worked by a very good team, desperate for a W at home, which has been long overdue for a very good shooting game and destroyed us on the boards.  Even if we rebound, I don't think we win because they were on fire.  Put it past and move on.  This time has bounced back and I want to see renewed aggression on defense and the boards against Marquette.  Otherwise Fisher will kill us.

Post Game Quote (Mullin)

http://www.redstormsports.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/021517aaf.html

St. John's Head Coach Chris Mullin

On the game:

"I got to give credit to Butler. They played a great game; moved the ball."

On getting outrebounded:

"That has been a problem of ours. [It's] something that's just going to come as we get stronger. When you play small, you have to be quick to the ball. I tell [our team] that you can get outrebounded, but you can't get outrebounded, lose 50/50 balls, play selfish and all those things. You can make up for it in other areas, but if you lose every area that's what happens."

The most brutal play was AA trying to box out Wideman and he just moved him for the tip back slam and was also fouled by AA trying to recover. He needs to be gone after this year or have his scholarship taken.

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 01:28:42 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 16, 2017, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 12:12:11 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 15, 2017, 10:49:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM

Quote from: KJ_Django on February 15, 2017, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on February 15, 2017, 09:59:51 PM

Wideman looks like Karl Malone against us.

Keep in mind hes avg 7 points and after going for 20 against us he never had more than 9 after that.

This is why we can't go into next year with Owens Yakwe and Williams as our only 5s and expect to be a tournament team

It's okay. Dave told us size doesn't matter anymore in college. Wideman could have not had a point or rebound and still dominated us. He takes up two bodies in the post and set screens for three straight made treys in the first half.

He's top 3 big man in conference. He could have been contained if Yakwe wasn't looking for butterflies in the sky instead of locating ball.

Height/Weight isn't prohibitive rebounding. Need more emphasis on rebounding as a team. When there is a focus there you've seen positive results.

I guess all these top programs are wasting their time spending millions on weight rooms and world class strength and conditioning programs then.

I completely agree with you that we need better team rebounding, but our boys can't handle  men like that under the basket. We need a beast.

Physical maturity will help but again Wideman is a top 3 big man in conference and he's 6'6 to 6'7.

Yes I get it he's more girth than anyone on St John's roster but to my point he's not a classic big.

Every time we get killed in the paint by the other team's big we can't write it off by saying "well he's a top 3 big man in the conference". That's the type of mentality that keeps programs at the bottom of the standings. If the guys we currently have can't compete with a top 3 big man in the conference get somebody that can

They can compete and will be even better next year with maturation. The addition of Marvin Clark will also bolster.

They've done well against top guys in the conference like Delgado, Fischer, and out of conference guys like Lydon/Coleman. The inconsistency is due to focus, discipline, and maturity not size.

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 01:28:42 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 16, 2017, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 12:12:11 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 15, 2017, 10:49:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM

Quote from: KJ_Django on February 15, 2017, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on February 15, 2017, 09:59:51 PM

Wideman looks like Karl Malone against us.

Keep in mind hes avg 7 points and after going for 20 against us he never had more than 9 after that.

This is why we can't go into next year with Owens Yakwe and Williams as our only 5s and expect to be a tournament team

It's okay. Dave told us size doesn't matter anymore in college. Wideman could have not had a point or rebound and still dominated us. He takes up two bodies in the post and set screens for three straight made treys in the first half.

He's top 3 big man in conference. He could have been contained if Yakwe wasn't looking for butterflies in the sky instead of locating ball.

Height/Weight isn't prohibitive rebounding. Need more emphasis on rebounding as a team. When there is a focus there you've seen positive results.

I guess all these top programs are wasting their time spending millions on weight rooms and world class strength and conditioning programs then.

I completely agree with you that we need better team rebounding, but our boys can't handle  men like that under the basket. We need a beast.

Physical maturity will help but again Wideman is a top 3 big man in conference and he's 6'6 to 6'7.

Yes I get it he's more girth than anyone on St John's roster but to my point he's not a classic big.

What is with you and this "classic big" stuff? I never said we need one. What, because I don't like some 6'7 beanpole JUCO from Georgia? We don't need that. We need Wideman or a wide man. We need Ty Grant. I'm not talking about Ewing. Our guys get dominated by stronger teams that  come to play. Delgado, Patton, Wideman twice, all of Georgetown, and plenty of OOC
bigs have made us look foolish. We have to have an answer for next year. Is that really a controversial statement?

That guy currently doesn't exist. It would be helpful but not necessary. The team's success is not dependent on that player. This is solely my point.

http://www.thedraftreview.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2197 Rebounding 6'8 210 - 18/game in NBA . Not big bodied - relentless . All attitude.

They've done well against top guys in the conference like Delgado, Fischer, and out of conference guys like Lydon/Coleman. The inconsistency is due to focus, discipline, and maturity not size.

I somewhat understand what the other side is saying.  But it's being overplayed.  Don't get me wrong, as I'll take that kinda player all day!  But, Dave's last sentence nails it IMO (particularly, the lack of focus and discipline).

I only watched the first half of last night's game, and what I saw had very little to do with lack of girth.  I literally saw us standing around and watching or nonchalantly attempting to rebound.  No focus, no fight, no heart, and no hustling.

The teams success also depends on better coaching. Not everything is because of focus, discipline, and maturity. This team has been doing much the same thing all season. Basic things can be taught.
On offense: Have some set plays and set some picks. Ahmed is out of control on almost every drive and should stop doing it and concentrate on other aspects of his game.
On defense: Box out or sit on the bench. Fight through picks. Don't have everyone collapse in when someone drives. It seldom helps and leaves wide open 3's.
This is coaching. All these things need to be practiced repetitively. Young players can learn if taught properly.

The teams success also depends on better coaching. Not everything is because of focus, discipline, and maturity. This team has been doing much the same thing all season.

Actually, I agree.  I spoke to another fan last night, and we both said similar.

Quote from: Marillac on February 16, 2017, 01:09:49 AM

Quote from: Dave on February 16, 2017, 12:12:11 AM

Quote from: Marillac on February 15, 2017, 10:49:46 PM

Quote from: goredmen on February 15, 2017, 10:03:56 PM

Quote from: KJ_Django on February 15, 2017, 10:01:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on February 15, 2017, 09:59:51 PM

Wideman looks like Karl Malone against us.

Keep in mind hes avg 7 points and after going for 20 against us he never had more than 9 after that.

This is why we can't go into next year with Owens Yakwe and Williams as our only 5s and expect to be a tournament team

It's okay. Dave told us size doesn't matter anymore in college. Wideman could have not had a point or rebound and still dominated us. He takes up two bodies in the post and set screens for three straight made treys in the first half.

He's top 3 big man in conference. He could have been contained if Yakwe wasn't looking for butterflies in the sky instead of locating ball.

Height/Weight isn't prohibitive rebounding. Need more emphasis on rebounding as a team. When there is a focus there you've seen positive results.

I guess all these top programs are wasting their time spending millions on weight rooms and world class strength and conditioning programs then.

I completely agree with you that we need better team rebounding, but our boys can't handle  men like that under the basket. We need a beast.

Physical maturity will help but again Wideman is a top 3 big man in conference and he's 6'6 to 6'7.

Yes I get it he's more girth than anyone on St John's roster but to my point he's not a classic big.

Yes girth is very important 

Tough game in an arena where it is tough to win.  D was awful, particularly on the perimeter.  Early rebounding decided the game, pitiful in the first half.  This will happen to young teams, particularly on the road.

The one glimpse that I had of Darien he was hobbling off the bench. Despite him being in uniform, it must've been for emergency purposes only. We could've really used him on Wideman last night to say the least.

Butler recap: http://www.bigeastboards.com/

The most brutal play was AA trying to box out Wideman and he just moved him for the tip back slam and was also fouled by AA trying to recover. He needs to be gone after this year or have his scholarship taken.

God this was brutal. Amar is what 6'8 230 and Wideman moved him like he was Mugsy Bogues.

I assume Williams was still not 100% because otherwise there is no excuse for using Amar.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 15, 2017, 06:06:53 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on February 15, 2017, 05:48:31 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 15, 2017, 05:45:02 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on February 15, 2017, 04:56:28 PM

Quote from: paultzman on February 15, 2017, 04:36:38 PM

Per Rothstein

St. John's guard Malik Ellison (thumb) will play tonight against Butler, per a source. #SJUBB

Braziller just noted Williams expected to play as well.

Very good news for our depth tonight.  It's one of our strengths.  Can't expect another from Alibegovic like the last one.

I think our promising young coach will give Da Ali B some minutes due to his explosion last outing.

I hope our coach explained to our 12th man, that it was great that he hit a 3 from that deep. But to never do that again. Let's hope Amar has enough towels to keep him busy tonight.

He's not our 12th man.  I might be the only one,  but I like him.

I apologize . I was not trying to annoy you.

No need to apologize Tony.  Feel free to write whatever the heck you want.  I'm a big first amendment guy.