Here is the deal

Quote from: Johnny23 on January 12, 2018, 02:21:38 PM

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

You're getting blinded by numbers. You need to look at progress on the court which is not happening here. Also a few short years later after K's mediocre start he was playing in a national title game. In Mullin's wildest dreams that would never happen here in a few short years from now. Nice try though.

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 12, 2018, 02:51:27 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:44:22 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on January 12, 2018, 02:21:38 PM

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

You're referring to Coach K.  Different times, WASJU. 

Guess what, though?  I, once heard him on a radio show years ago talking about he knew he had to win that fourth season because he probably was gonna get fired.  He likely bought himself a 4th year because he had a fairly, good first season (made it to the 3rd round of the NIT), and he had a terrific recruiting class the year before that was gonna be sophomore's (Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and David Henderson) during his 4th season, and a one of the top point freshman point guards coming in that season (Tommy Amaker).

He won that fourth season, and has never turned back.  In his own words, it was (paraphrased) a "MUST win" season, and he came through.

If Lovett thing does not happen we win 17 or 18 and most would at least be mollified if not satisfied.

That's possible.  But, the staff had an opportunity to rectify that situation before the season started.

Don't get me wrong, as I like LoVett, and definitely think he would've be integral in helping us win games.  But, his last few outings, he had been doing a bit too much shot hunting and even taking bad shots for my taste.  It would've surely helped us win some games, but I'm not sure it was conducive to long-term winning.

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:44:22 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on January 12, 2018, 02:21:38 PM

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

You're referring to Coach K.  Different times, WASJU. 

Guess what, though?  I, once heard him on a radio show years ago talking about he knew he had to win that fourth season because he probably was gonna get fired.  He likely bought himself a 4th year because he had a fairly, good first season (made it to the 3rd round of the NIT), and he had a terrific recruiting class the year before that was gonna be sophomore's (Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and David Henderson) during his 4th season, and a one of the top point freshman point guards coming in that season (Tommy Amaker).

He won that fourth season, and has never turned back.  In his own words, it was (paraphrased) a "MUST win" season, and he came through.

The Coach K analogy is brought out every time we have a coaching change and we are still in year 3 complaining.  It's old and it has to stop.  totally different time, no social media, no 24 hour sports stations etc.  Doesn't work that way anymore.

We get it if Duke had fired him after year 3 history would have changed.  I can also give you dozens of examples of coaches who were kept after 3 years of bad or mediocre coaching and guess what?  They were still bad/mediocre coaches long after that.

Stop.  He is not getting fired we get it.  Let's just ride this out and see how it works out.  But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 12, 2018, 02:51:27 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:44:22 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on January 12, 2018, 02:21:38 PM

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

You're referring to Coach K.  Different times, WASJU. 

Guess what, though?  I, once heard him on a radio show years ago talking about he knew he had to win that fourth season because he probably was gonna get fired.  He likely bought himself a 4th year because he had a fairly, good first season (made it to the 3rd round of the NIT), and he had a terrific recruiting class the year before that was gonna be sophomore's (Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and David Henderson) during his 4th season, and a one of the top point freshman point guards coming in that season (Tommy Amaker).

He won that fourth season, and has never turned back.  In his own words, it was (paraphrased) a "MUST win" season, and he came through.

The Coach K analogy is brought out every time we have a coaching change and we are still in year 3 complaining.  It's old and it has to stop.  totally different time, no social media, no 24 hour sports stations etc.  Doesn't work that way anymore.

We get it if Duke had fired him after year 3 history would have changed.  I can also give you dozens of examples of coaches who were kept after 3 years of bad or mediocre coaching and guess what?  They were still bad/mediocre coaches long after that.

Stop.  He is not getting fired we get it.  Let's just ride this out and see how it works out.  But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

+1

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

It's the style of ball we're playing, WASJU.  Loses are inevitable, but I'm no fan of our style of play.  That was even with LoVett being healthy, as well.  Overall, it's been a not-so-good, brand of ball and poor coaching on both sides of the ball.

We also don't know who'll even be here next season.  If our season continues to go down this ugly and bizarre road, then they'll likely be defections.  In this day and time, if kids have another avenue then they'll take it.  Too many of 'em don't like to associated with losing and instability.

Hopefully, we can get it together and win 4 or 5 conference games to show some form of gumption and we're gonna right the ship a season from now.  But, if we don't do so, be prepared to see a defection or two and one or two not make it to campus.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 12, 2018, 02:51:27 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:44:22 PM

Quote from: Johnny23 on January 12, 2018, 02:21:38 PM

This isn't about some set formula that if you give Mullin an extra year or more he will suddenly learn how to coach. This is about not seeing him getting better on the job, players not improving, team chemistry not improving and them doing the same awful things they've been doing throughout his entire tenure.

Coming off a 9-17 season at his previous school a somewhat successful college coach then went 38-47 in his first 3 years at his current school. If you were the AD at that school, I am guessing that guy never sees his fourth year.

You're referring to Coach K.  Different times, WASJU. 

Guess what, though?  I, once heard him on a radio show years ago talking about he knew he had to win that fourth season because he probably was gonna get fired.  He likely bought himself a 4th year because he had a fairly, good first season (made it to the 3rd round of the NIT), and he had a terrific recruiting class the year before that was gonna be sophomore's (Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, and David Henderson) during his 4th season, and a one of the top point freshman point guards coming in that season (Tommy Amaker).

He won that fourth season, and has never turned back.  In his own words, it was (paraphrased) a "MUST win" season, and he came through.

The Coach K analogy is brought out every time we have a coaching change and we are still in year 3 complaining.  It's old and it has to stop.  totally different time, no social media, no 24 hour sports stations etc.  Doesn't work that way anymore.

We get it if Duke had fired him after year 3 history would have changed.  I can also give you dozens of examples of coaches who were kept after 3 years of bad or mediocre coaching and guess what?  They were still bad/mediocre coaches long after that.

Stop.  He is not getting fired we get it.  Let's just ride this out and see how it works out.  But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

No one is guaranteeing anything. This season is lost. People are going to start threads about how terrible he is after every loss. What is the point. If we stink next year start the complaining again. No one will be able to counter argue it.  And you are the same guy arguing that you can't say Ewing will be a good coach until 3 years from now. You really do just argue to argue w/o a point or reason.

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:58:12 PM

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

It's the style of ball we're playing, WASJU.  Loses are inevitable, but I'm no fan of our style of play.  That was even with LoVett being healthy, as well.  Overall, it's been an a not-so-good, brand of ball and poor coaching on both sides of the ball.

We also don't know who'll even be here next season.  If our season continues to go down this ugly and bizarre road, then they'll likely be defections.  In this day and time, if kids have another avenue then they'll take it.  Too many of 'em don't like to associated with losing and instability.

Hopefully, we can get it together and win 4 or 5 conference games to show some form of gumption and we're gonna right the ship a season from now.  But, if we don't do so, be prepared to see a defection or two and one or two not make it to campus.

I thought we looked good for the most part early in the season. Team really only had two scorers and no depth. Ponds very good player but an overated shooter and lost Lovett. Tough to look good that way. Again lack of depth and roster construction is on Mullin. Just saying that no coach was going to look great with roster that Mullin and Teflon Matt put together.

But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Since those who recommend hiring an up and comer like Hurley can't guarantee 30 years of success either I await you chastisement of them.

Quote from: fordham96 on January 12, 2018, 02:59:22 PM

But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Since those who recommend hiring an up and comer like Hurley can't guarantee 30 years of success either I await you chastisement of them.

Used the exact opposite argument when people were praising Ewing.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 12, 2018, 03:04:47 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:58:12 PM

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

It's the style of ball we're playing, WASJU.  Loses are inevitable, but I'm no fan of our style of play.  That was even with LoVett being healthy, as well.  Overall, it's been an a not-so-good, brand of ball and poor coaching on both sides of the ball.

We also don't know who'll even be here next season.  If our season continues to go down this ugly and bizarre road, then they'll likely be defections.  In this day and time, if kids have another avenue then they'll take it.  Too many of 'em don't like to associated with losing and instability.

Hopefully, we can get it together and win 4 or 5 conference games to show some form of gumption and we're gonna right the ship a season from now.  But, if we don't do so, be prepared to see a defection or two and one or two not make it to campus.

I thought we looked good for the most part early in the season. Team really only had two scorers and no depth. Ponds very good player but an overated shooter and lost Lovett. Tough to look good that way. Again lack of depth and roster construction is on Mullin. Just saying that no coach was going to look great with roster that Mullin and Teflon Matt put together.

I thought we looked damn good versus Nebraska, and alright in a couple of other games.  We played well for about 25 minutes versus Mizzou (during the latter part of the first half and during the early-to-middle part of the second half).  I didn't see the Arizona State game, but I assumed we played well in spots.  Other than that, per our OOC schedule, it's been kinda "meh" for me.

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:58:12 PM

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

It's the style of ball we're playing, WASJU.  Loses are inevitable, but I'm no fan of our style of play.  That was even with LoVett being healthy, as well.  Overall, it's been a not-so-good, brand of ball and poor coaching on both sides of the ball.

We also don't know who'll even be here next season.  If our season continues to go down this ugly and bizarre road, then they'll likely be defections.  In this day and time, if kids have another avenue then they'll take it.  Too many of 'em don't like to associated with losing and instability.

Hopefully, we can get it together and win 4 or 5 conference games to show some form of gumption and we're gonna right the ship a season from now.  But, if we don't do so, be prepared to see a defection or two and one or two not make it to campus.

Who do you see leaving? Three guys on the team have already sat a year for transferring and Ponds is already the man at a program and city he is comfortable with. Yakwe and Trimble are the only guys I could see leaving and I would be pretty surprised if that happened.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 12, 2018, 03:04:47 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:58:12 PM

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

It's the style of ball we're playing, WASJU.  Loses are inevitable, but I'm no fan of our style of play.  That was even with LoVett being healthy, as well.  Overall, it's been a not-so-good, brand of ball and poor coaching on both sides of the ball.

We also don't know who'll even be here next season.  If our season continues to go down this ugly and bizarre road, then they'll likely be defections.  In this day and time, if kids have another avenue then they'll take it.  Too many of 'em don't like to associated with losing and instability.

Hopefully, we can get it together and win 4 or 5 conference games to show some form of gumption and we're gonna right the ship a season from now.  But, if we don't do so, be prepared to see a defection or two and one or two not make it to campus.

Who do you see leaving? Three guys on the team have already sat a year for transferring and Ponds is already the man at a program and city he is comfortable with. Yakwe and Trimble are the only guys I could see leaving and I would be pretty surprised if that happened.

If change coach can't guarantee everyone on team an incoming guys would stay. That was my point if this was referring to me.

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2018, 03:08:00 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on January 12, 2018, 02:59:22 PM

But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Since those who recommend hiring an up and comer like Hurley can't guarantee 30 years of success either I await you chastisement of them.

Used the exact opposite argument when people were praising Ewing.

Frankly, I wouldn't praise Ewing either.  He hasn't done anything.  He's played the worst schedule in the last 13 years and, although his team played Butler tough (at home) and stayed within 8 or 9 versus Marquette (on the road), they've only shown they can beat teams on their level or worse.

He does seem more involved than Mullin, as I believed you've stated a few times.  Other than that, I can't say whether he'll be a good, mediocre or poor coach.  I don't know yet.  Until, he shows me something, then I'm not particularly sold on him.

Quote from: fordham96 on January 12, 2018, 02:59:22 PM

But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Since those who recommend hiring an up and comer like Hurley can't guarantee 30 years of success either I await you chastisement of them.

What?  I said earlier there is no magic formula.
I also said I have no objections to giving him a 4th year just I no longer will defend all of his decisions as generally good, I will be much more skeptical.  Meaning he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt at least not from me.

My only point with Coach K is if you are going to argue for more time and patience do it without that analogy.  That is cheap and lazy and can be easily dismidsed.

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 12, 2018, 03:04:47 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:58:12 PM

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

It's the style of ball we're playing, WASJU.  Loses are inevitable, but I'm no fan of our style of play.  That was even with LoVett being healthy, as well.  Overall, it's been a not-so-good, brand of ball and poor coaching on both sides of the ball.

We also don't know who'll even be here next season.  If our season continues to go down this ugly and bizarre road, then they'll likely be defections.  In this day and time, if kids have another avenue then they'll take it.  Too many of 'em don't like to associated with losing and instability.

Hopefully, we can get it together and win 4 or 5 conference games to show some form of gumption and we're gonna right the ship a season from now.  But, if we don't do so, be prepared to see a defection or two and one or two not make it to campus.

Who do you see leaving? Three guys on the team have already sat a year for transferring and Ponds is already the man at a program and city he is comfortable with. Yakwe and Trimble are the only guys I could see leaving and I would be pretty surprised if that happened.

Obviously, you don't pay attention to college hoops.  There's always the potential for defections, even if a team is winning.  If a team is losing, along with possible instability, then there's usually gonna be defections of some kind.

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2018, 03:08:00 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on January 12, 2018, 02:59:22 PM

But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Since those who recommend hiring an up and comer like Hurley can't guarantee 30 years of success either I await you chastisement of them.

What?  I said earlier there is no magic formula.
I also said I have no objections to giving him a 4th year just I no longer will defend all of his decisions as generally good, I will be much more skeptical.  Meaning he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt at least not from me.

My only point with Coach K is if you are going to argue for more time and patience do it without that analogy.  That is cheap and lazy and can be easily dismidsed.

All anecdotal evidence can be dismissed was my only point. Coach K is not a good example because he's a diabolical genius. It's like saying if you want to be an inventor you should drop out of elementary school because that's how Edison did it.

Quote from: survivedc on January 12, 2018, 03:12:42 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on January 12, 2018, 03:04:47 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 12, 2018, 02:58:12 PM

Next year was going to be big year for him regardless. W/o Lovett just don't want two more months of Mullin sucks and should be fired and I want a Hurley inside me threads. We are going to suck. 2 maybe 3 wins. It is what it is and he probably won't and shouldn't be fired. Let's regroup and hope we are good next year. But some on here will root for us to suck next year so that Mullin can be fired and the cycle can continue with Cluess.

It's the style of ball we're playing, WASJU.  Loses are inevitable, but I'm no fan of our style of play.  That was even with LoVett being healthy, as well.  Overall, it's been a not-so-good, brand of ball and poor coaching on both sides of the ball.

We also don't know who'll even be here next season.  If our season continues to go down this ugly and bizarre road, then they'll likely be defections.  In this day and time, if kids have another avenue then they'll take it.  Too many of 'em don't like to associated with losing and instability.

Hopefully, we can get it together and win 4 or 5 conference games to show some form of gumption and we're gonna right the ship a season from now.  But, if we don't do so, be prepared to see a defection or two and one or two not make it to campus.

Who do you see leaving? Three guys on the team have already sat a year for transferring and Ponds is already the man at a program and city he is comfortable with. Yakwe and Trimble are the only guys I could see leaving and I would be pretty surprised if that happened.

Obviously, you don't pay attention to college hoops.  There's always the potential for defections, even if a team is winning.  If a team is losing, along with possible instability, then there's usually gonna be defections of some kind.

Spot on. Nor should it come as any surprise as another posted pointed out how many defections there have been under the Mullin regime.

Quote from: fordham96 on January 12, 2018, 03:17:46 PM

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2018, 03:08:00 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on January 12, 2018, 02:59:22 PM

But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Since those who recommend hiring an up and comer like Hurley can't guarantee 30 years of success either I await you chastisement of them.

What?  I said earlier there is no magic formula.
I also said I have no objections to giving him a 4th year just I no longer will defend all of his decisions as generally good, I will be much more skeptical.  Meaning he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt at least not from me.

My only point with Coach K is if you are going to argue for more time and patience do it without that analogy.  That is cheap and lazy and can be easily dismidsed.

All anecdotal evidence can be dismissed was my only point. Coach K is not a good example because he's a diabolical genius. It's like saying if you want to be an inventor you should drop out of elementary school because that's how Edison did it.

Point taken.

Quote from: Foad on January 12, 2018, 03:08:00 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on January 12, 2018, 02:59:22 PM

But unless you can guarantee me that after this year we are on a 30 year run like Duke has had, which you obviously cannot guarantee, then please stop mentioning the Coach K situation.

Since those who recommend hiring an up and comer like Hurley can't guarantee 30 years of success either I await you chastisement of them.

What?  I said earlier there is no magic formula.
I also said I have no objections to giving him a 4th year just I no longer will defend all of his decisions as generally good, I will be much more skeptical.  Meaning he no longer gets the benefit of the doubt at least not from me.

My only point with Coach K is if you are going to argue for more time and patience do it without that analogy.  That is cheap and lazy and can be easily dismidsed.

So far he has been terrible. I am not arguing that. I am also, no matter what happens not going to be someone that posts Fire Mullin. That is just me though and I understand that is not realistic. My point is yes it has been rough and yes we are going to finish terribly but we all know this. Give him next year which was always going to be his make or break year anyway. Posting how much he sucks after every loss is useless. And yes I did that exact same thing with Norm but the fact that he is Chris Mullin should give him as least as much good faith as people gave Norm.