Patience/Comparable Rebuilds

  • 126 replies
  • 13597 views

TONYD3

  • *****
  • 5578
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2018, 10:59:09 AM »
Simon and ponds are going to get all big east considerations. Probably not first team. Winless with 2 top players. Certainly holes on the roster . But to be winless?

Poison

  • *****
  • 16896
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2018, 11:09:42 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

Suckers

johnniesfilmmaker

  • **
  • 80
  • Aspiring filmmaker
    • Through the Viewfinder
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2018, 11:13:39 AM »

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

Couple of things.  I do think SJU can have a big turnaround next year.  But more importantly they will have to, there is no way he can win 7 league games next year and claim it was an improvement based on this year being a disaster.  Again he does not get the benefit of the doubt like he did after year 1.  He does not get to benefit from a disaster this year.  The year 4 expectations still remain.  As I said it is a two year plan now with a HUGE jump next year expected and then year 5 competing with Nova.  So I like your enthusiasm...

...but you are way  overstating things.  You are saying SJU will have depth and some frontcourt talent for the first time, that doesn't guarantee anything.  As you know the other 9 teams are not standing still.  They will have talent and depth and the idea that SJU is going to jump 10-11 wins based simply on extra bodies is a bit of a leap of faith.

Secondly you are giving WAAAYYY too much credit for last year's 8 wins.  Again if you count the BE Tourney they were 8-12.  All 12 losses weren't close.  They had zero chance to win any of them.  They won I counted 4 games that could have gone either way, both wins against Georgetown at MSG, road win at DePaul and the Butler game at Carnesecca.  They won every one, quite frankly they were probably closer to 6-14 than say 10-10.  Put it to you another way, they probably didn't improve as much as we thought last year.  So don't put too much stock in last year's record.  In fact if anything some of those close wins last year are starting to even out this year with losses.  Since they really had no close losses last year.

Lastly, Ponds the best player next year in the BE??  Hopefully he improves but right now based on production and the fact the teams they play on are simply more successful I would put Markus Howard of Marquette, Jalen Brunson/Mikal Bridges/Omari Spellman/Phil Booth/Donte D all have eligiblity for Nova left after this year., Kamar Baldwin of Butler is a terrific player, Kyri Thomas of Creighton is averagine 14.6 while shooting over 50% and is a Junior.  I think Shamorie can be one of the best guards in the BE next year but I have to see a LOT more consistency to actually say he is the best returning player in the BE.  Not sure how other than SJU hype machine can anyone actually say that at this point.

Lastly when teams have had HUGE 1 year turnarounds, Minnesota last year, Oklahoma this year, it usually has been accompanied by a big time national talent joining the program.  Amir Coffey with Minny and Trae Yound with Oklahoma.  There is no one on SJU's roster that has that type of talent.  But no doubt they should be improved but more importantly they expect to be SIGNIFICANTLY improved (remember the 2 year plan starts next year) and even more important than that they BETTER be significantly better next year...

It's odd that you site last year's record and say we weren't close in any of the losses. But we've been close in all but three games this season. We could just as easily be 8-3 in conference play this year if we had more depth and experience. We're so much more competitive this year over last year.

Foad

  • *****
  • 6065
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2018, 11:17:39 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?

I don't understand what this obsession is with Lavin.  I have no idea exactly where SJU would be if he was given an extension.

I do know this.

If I had told you that SJU fans had a choice abck in 2015 knowing what we know now:

1)They could keep Lavin, sign him to a 3 year extension and maybe work with him on a staff change or

2)Fire him and bring in another coach in which that other coach would be 32-55 overall, 8-38 in conference, would have a 1-17 first year record, be 0-11 and be headed for their 2nd last place appearance in 3 years in the middle of his 3rd year and have zero post season appearances.

Two choices.  Would you still choose #2?  If Lavin was this bad last year he would be on his way to being fired anyway.  He would have been allowed a step back year in 2015-16 to help replace the roster graduating off of his last team but he would have been expected to win right after that.  And maybe he doesn't, don't know.  He certainly had his faults.  But my larger point is there is no one after all the optimism of the early days who thought SJU would be here in year 3 of the Mullin era and that has nothing to do with Lavin and I honestly fail to see the reason why people bring up Baron Davis quotes...

I mentioned Lavin because the OP mentioned Lavin. It's called having a conversation. I'm very interested in Tony's opinions, that should be clear by now.

Lavin was mentally ill. I'd have fired him when that first became apparent, which was approximately February of 2013, just when the team was starting to take baby or incremental steps up the hilltop or mountain top to a magic carpet ride to Costco where Batman was going to share the sugar. What whoever came after him did or didn't do has no bearing on that.




Foad

  • *****
  • 6065
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2018, 11:24:18 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?
I don’t remember saying that . What I have said multiple times is we would dramtic improvement with a competent staff. Not rocket science to play 3 point defense. Also stop shooting so many bad shots. That change could happen almost instantly.

"Steve Lavin has this team on the bubble. A good coach has this team a 5/6 seed." I disagree with that - in fact I think it's insane - although clearly there is room for dramatic improvement.


TONYD3

  • *****
  • 5578
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2018, 11:27:01 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?

I don't understand what this obsession is with Lavin.  I have no idea exactly where SJU would be if he was given an extension.

I do know this.

If I had told you that SJU fans had a choice abck in 2015 knowing what we know now:

1)They could keep Lavin, sign him to a 3 year extension and maybe work with him on a staff change or

2)Fire him and bring in another coach in which that other coach would be 32-55 overall, 8-38 in conference, would have a 1-17 first year record, be 0-11 and be headed for their 2nd last place appearance in 3 years in the middle of his 3rd year and have zero post season appearances.

Two choices.  Would you still choose #2?  If Lavin was this bad last year he would be on his way to being fired anyway.  He would have been allowed a step back year in 2015-16 to help replace the roster graduating off of his last team but he would have been expected to win right after that.  And maybe he doesn't, don't know.  He certainly had his faults.  But my larger point is there is no one after all the optimism of the early days who thought SJU would be here in year 3 of the Mullin era and that has nothing to do with Lavin and I honestly fail to see the reason why people bring up Baron Davis quotes...

I mentioned Lavin because the OP mentioned Lavin. It's called having a conversation. I'm very interested in Tony's opinions, that should be clear by now.

Lavin was mentally ill. I'd have fired him when that first became apparent, which was approximately February of 2013, just when the team was starting to take baby or incremental steps up the hilltop or mountain top to a magic carpet ride to Costco where Batman was going to share the sugar. What whoever came after him did or didn't do has no bearing on that.




Disclaimer- very bored at work. Testing all day.
Fine with firing Lavin. Was scared who would be next. Never thought it would be this bad.

TONYD3

  • *****
  • 5578
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2018, 11:29:21 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?
I don’t remember saying that . What I have said multiple times is we would dramtic improvement with a competent staff. Not rocket science to play 3 point defense. Also stop shooting so many bad shots. That change could happen almost instantly.

"Steve Lavin has this team on the bubble. A good coach has this team a 5/6 seed." I disagree with that - in fact I think it's insane - although clearly there is room for dramatic improvement.


Knew that was what you were doing loser. Still think that. That was before Lovett was completely gone.

Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2018, 11:36:08 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?
I don’t remember saying that . What I have said multiple times is we would dramtic improvement with a competent staff. Not rocket science to play 3 point defense. Also stop shooting so many bad shots. That change could happen almost instantly.

"Steve Lavin has this team on the bubble. A good coach has this team a 5/6 seed." I disagree with that - in fact I think it's insane - although clearly there is room for dramatic improvement.


Knew that was what you were doing loser. Still think that. That was before Lovett was completely gone.

When we were 10-3?

johnniesfilmmaker

  • **
  • 80
  • Aspiring filmmaker
    • Through the Viewfinder
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2018, 11:41:29 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?
I don’t remember saying that . What I have said multiple times is we would dramtic improvement with a competent staff. Not rocket science to play 3 point defense. Also stop shooting so many bad shots. That change could happen almost instantly.

"Steve Lavin has this team on the bubble. A good coach has this team a 5/6 seed." I disagree with that - in fact I think it's insane - although clearly there is room for dramatic improvement.


Knew that was what you were doing loser. Still think that. That was before Lovett was completely gone.

We were 10-2 with a close loss to Missouri and then Lovett went down. I see no reason to believe that, had Lovett situation not gone down, we would've gone 11-1 out of conference and we'd be at least 5-6 or 6-5 in conference with potential to be 8-3. With Lovett, our 3 point defense is markedly improved because he's our best defender, our turnover margin (which is first in conference) would've been even better, and our 3pt shooting would've gone up. We'd be a bubble team with Lovett.

But I had a quick thought, Steve Masiello isn't doing so hot at Manhattan these past few years after making back to back tourneys (although one was a loss in the "first round" of 68). I would personally think it'd be smart to maybe get rid of Mitch Richmond and hire Mike Rice and Steve Masiello. Rice and Masiello could tag team local recruiting and Matt could focus on a more national level. We'd have two coaches with head coaching experience and Greg St. Jean.

I think Masiello is a good coach and I was willing to give him a shot at the job here when it was open. It might be good for him to be an assistant at a bigger program in a tougher conference for the next few years to then try and get a head coaching gig at a program bigger than Manhattan. I also think it would help St. Jean be able to experience game planning from two experienced coaches.

Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2018, 11:43:30 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?

I don't understand what this obsession is with Lavin.  I have no idea exactly where SJU would be if he was given an extension.

I do know this.

If I had told you that SJU fans had a choice abck in 2015 knowing what we know now:

1)They could keep Lavin, sign him to a 3 year extension and maybe work with him on a staff change or

2)Fire him and bring in another coach in which that other coach would be 32-55 overall, 8-38 in conference, would have a 1-17 first year record, be 0-11 and be headed for their 2nd last place appearance in 3 years in the middle of his 3rd year and have zero post season appearances.

Two choices.  Would you still choose #2?  If Lavin was this bad last year he would be on his way to being fired anyway.  He would have been allowed a step back year in 2015-16 to help replace the roster graduating off of his last team but he would have been expected to win right after that.  And maybe he doesn't, don't know.  He certainly had his faults.  But my larger point is there is no one after all the optimism of the early days who thought SJU would be here in year 3 of the Mullin era and that has nothing to do with Lavin and I honestly fail to see the reason why people bring up Baron Davis quotes...

I mentioned Lavin because the OP mentioned Lavin. It's called having a conversation. I'm very interested in Tony's opinions, that should be clear by now.

Lavin was mentally ill. I'd have fired him when that first became apparent, which was approximately February of 2013, just when the team was starting to take baby or incremental steps up the hilltop or mountain top to a magic carpet ride to Costco where Batman was going to share the sugar. What whoever came after him did or didn't do has no bearing on that.





I am not sure but I think his opinion is Mullin should quit.

Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2018, 11:56:06 AM »
A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

Foad

  • *****
  • 6065
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2018, 11:58:48 AM »
We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?
I don’t remember saying that . What I have said multiple times is we would dramtic improvement with a competent staff. Not rocket science to play 3 point defense. Also stop shooting so many bad shots. That change could happen almost instantly.

"Steve Lavin has this team on the bubble. A good coach has this team a 5/6 seed." I disagree with that - in fact I think it's insane - although clearly there is room for dramatic improvement.


Knew that was what you were doing loser. Still think that. That was before Lovett was completely gone.

When we were 10-3?

We have lost our last 13 big east games. If you count the big east tournament we are 1-14 vs big east teams. The true believers have for the most part conceded the next 8 games. I will give our hall of fame coach the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we go 2-6 the rest of the way. That would make us 3- 20. Another loss in the big east 3-21.
What do you guys think about when you watch this team? We are last in 3 point shooting, but we still shoot at will. Our 3 point defense I think they said was the worst in the country.
We are minus 10 in rebound margin, lappas said “that is unheard of”
Donny Marshall at half time “st. John’s plays bad Basketball “

Patience - u all are crazy - or just lying to yourselves

Duke - Saturday- true believers better be in the building

Similar players coached by the same guys will produce similar results.

 Baron Davis looked into the rafters at Pauley Pavilion last Friday during the Golden State Warriors' morning shoot-around and said, "We should have a banner up there: the only team to make the tournament without a coach."
Agree with you . I don’t think lavin was a good coach. He was ok. Those UCLA teams should have been better. And his St. John’s teams should have been better. Huge difference from being ok or disappointing to this. Best 0-11 team in the country

Didn't you say that if Lavin was coaching this team they'd be in the tournament?
I don’t remember saying that . What I have said multiple times is we would dramtic improvement with a competent staff. Not rocket science to play 3 point defense. Also stop shooting so many bad shots. That change could happen almost instantly.

"Steve Lavin has this team on the bubble. A good coach has this team a 5/6 seed." I disagree with that - in fact I think it's insane - although clearly there is room for dramatic improvement.


Knew that was what you were doing loser. Still think that. That was before Lovett was completely gone.

It was on January 7th.  SJ was 10-6, having lost four in a row. Lovett last played November 26th.


Foad

  • *****
  • 6065
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2018, 12:00:43 PM »
I am not sure but I think his opinion is Mullin should quit.

Only if he's half the man we think he is. Because when the going gets tough, real men resign.

Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2018, 12:21:40 PM »

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

Couple of things.  I do think SJU can have a big turnaround next year.  But more importantly they will have to, there is no way he can win 7 league games next year and claim it was an improvement based on this year being a disaster.  Again he does not get the benefit of the doubt like he did after year 1.  He does not get to benefit from a disaster this year.  The year 4 expectations still remain.  As I said it is a two year plan now with a HUGE jump next year expected and then year 5 competing with Nova.  So I like your enthusiasm...

...but you are way  overstating things.  You are saying SJU will have depth and some frontcourt talent for the first time, that doesn't guarantee anything.  As you know the other 9 teams are not standing still.  They will have talent and depth and the idea that SJU is going to jump 10-11 wins based simply on extra bodies is a bit of a leap of faith.

Secondly you are giving WAAAYYY too much credit for last year's 8 wins.  Again if you count the BE Tourney they were 8-12.  All 12 losses weren't close.  They had zero chance to win any of them.  They won I counted 4 games that could have gone either way, both wins against Georgetown at MSG, road win at DePaul and the Butler game at Carnesecca.  They won every one, quite frankly they were probably closer to 6-14 than say 10-10.  Put it to you another way, they probably didn't improve as much as we thought last year.  So don't put too much stock in last year's record.  In fact if anything some of those close wins last year are starting to even out this year with losses.  Since they really had no close losses last year.

Lastly, Ponds the best player next year in the BE??  Hopefully he improves but right now based on production and the fact the teams they play on are simply more successful I would put Markus Howard of Marquette, Jalen Brunson/Mikal Bridges/Omari Spellman/Phil Booth/Donte D all have eligiblity for Nova left after this year., Kamar Baldwin of Butler is a terrific player, Kyri Thomas of Creighton is averagine 14.6 while shooting over 50% and is a Junior.  I think Shamorie can be one of the best guards in the BE next year but I have to see a LOT more consistency to actually say he is the best returning player in the BE.  Not sure how other than SJU hype machine can anyone actually say that at this point.

Lastly when teams have had HUGE 1 year turnarounds, Minnesota last year, Oklahoma this year, it usually has been accompanied by a big time national talent joining the program.  Amir Coffey with Minny and Trae Yound with Oklahoma.  There is no one on SJU's roster that has that type of talent.  But no doubt they should be improved but more importantly they expect to be SIGNIFICANTLY improved (remember the 2 year plan starts next year) and even more important than that they BETTER be significantly better next year...

It's odd that you site last year's record and say we weren't close in any of the losses. But we've been close in all but three games this season. We could just as easily be 8-3 in conference play this year if we had more depth and experience. We're so much more competitive this year over last year.

How much more experience do you want?  We have 6 guys playing that have been in college for 3 years or more.  Would you like to start 5 5th year seniors to have enough experience?  If you are talking coaching, thats a different story
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:22:58 PM by rdstr25 »

TONYD3

  • *****
  • 5578
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2018, 12:28:35 PM »
I am not sure but I think his opinion is Mullin should quit.

Only if he's half the man we think he is. Because when the going gets tough, real men resign.
If Santa, the Easter bunny , and the tooth fairy were this bad I would hope they would step down. Can’t be a fantasy forever.

Foad

  • *****
  • 6065
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2018, 12:43:28 PM »
If Santa, the Easter bunny , and the tooth fairy were this bad I would hope they would step down.

When I was seven the tooth fairy put an Easter basket full of coal under my pillow, I still haven't gotten over it.

Quote
Can’t be a fantasy forever.

Tell that to my Fleshlight.

Foad

  • *****
  • 6065
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2018, 12:47:04 PM »
How much more experience do you want?  We have 6 guys playing that have been in college for 3 years or more.

Two players have had more than two years of playing time at SJ's: Yakwe and Alibeowitz. So more experience than that.

johnniesfilmmaker

  • **
  • 80
  • Aspiring filmmaker
    • Through the Viewfinder
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2018, 12:50:35 PM »

I honestly see 22-25 wins if everyone stays and a solid assistant is hired.

Complete insanity

We'll have depth for the first time. Size for the first time. Experience all over the court. Oh, and the best player in the conference as an upperclassman.

Couple of things.  I do think SJU can have a big turnaround next year.  But more importantly they will have to, there is no way he can win 7 league games next year and claim it was an improvement based on this year being a disaster.  Again he does not get the benefit of the doubt like he did after year 1.  He does not get to benefit from a disaster this year.  The year 4 expectations still remain.  As I said it is a two year plan now with a HUGE jump next year expected and then year 5 competing with Nova.  So I like your enthusiasm...

...but you are way  overstating things.  You are saying SJU will have depth and some frontcourt talent for the first time, that doesn't guarantee anything.  As you know the other 9 teams are not standing still.  They will have talent and depth and the idea that SJU is going to jump 10-11 wins based simply on extra bodies is a bit of a leap of faith.

Secondly you are giving WAAAYYY too much credit for last year's 8 wins.  Again if you count the BE Tourney they were 8-12.  All 12 losses weren't close.  They had zero chance to win any of them.  They won I counted 4 games that could have gone either way, both wins against Georgetown at MSG, road win at DePaul and the Butler game at Carnesecca.  They won every one, quite frankly they were probably closer to 6-14 than say 10-10.  Put it to you another way, they probably didn't improve as much as we thought last year.  So don't put too much stock in last year's record.  In fact if anything some of those close wins last year are starting to even out this year with losses.  Since they really had no close losses last year.

Lastly, Ponds the best player next year in the BE??  Hopefully he improves but right now based on production and the fact the teams they play on are simply more successful I would put Markus Howard of Marquette, Jalen Brunson/Mikal Bridges/Omari Spellman/Phil Booth/Donte D all have eligiblity for Nova left after this year., Kamar Baldwin of Butler is a terrific player, Kyri Thomas of Creighton is averagine 14.6 while shooting over 50% and is a Junior.  I think Shamorie can be one of the best guards in the BE next year but I have to see a LOT more consistency to actually say he is the best returning player in the BE.  Not sure how other than SJU hype machine can anyone actually say that at this point.

Lastly when teams have had HUGE 1 year turnarounds, Minnesota last year, Oklahoma this year, it usually has been accompanied by a big time national talent joining the program.  Amir Coffey with Minny and Trae Yound with Oklahoma.  There is no one on SJU's roster that has that type of talent.  But no doubt they should be improved but more importantly they expect to be SIGNIFICANTLY improved (remember the 2 year plan starts next year) and even more important than that they BETTER be significantly better next year...

It's odd that you site last year's record and say we weren't close in any of the losses. But we've been close in all but three games this season. We could just as easily be 8-3 in conference play this year if we had more depth and experience. We're so much more competitive this year over last year.

How much more experience do you want?  We have 6 guys playing that have been in college for 3 years or more.  Would you like to start 5 5th year seniors to have enough experience?  If you are talking coaching, thats a different story

Tariq Owens has started in 29 games over three years. This is the first season he's started more than eight. That's not a lot of experience.  This is the first time Marvin Clark has started more than 7 games. Justin Simon started zero games before coming here. Bashir Ahmed is in his second season. The only guys with real experience are Ponds and Yakwe. Sitting out a year isn't experience. I want guys who've averaged more than 15 minutes per game before this year (so add Owens to the list of experienced players). It's also a team that is largely playing only their second year together. That's not experience. I want a team that's largely played 3 years together

Here's the amount of minutes played before this season:
Owens: 815
Clark; 729
Simon: 180
Ponds: 1,109
Ahmed: 881
Yakwe: 1,284
Alibegovic: 978

That's 5,976 minutes from seven guys. Those seven average 284 minutes over last three years

Now here's Villanova
Brunson: 2,077
Bridges: 1,886
DiVincenzo: 919
Booth: 1,468
Paschall (a transfer): 1,623

That's 7,973 from five guys and they are supplanted by freshman. Those five average 531 minutes over the last three years.

That's a difference of 1,997 total minutes. Obviously skill is a factor and I'm not saying that if we had the experience that Villanova had we'd be Villanova. All I'm saying is, the actual in-game experience of our time is very weak.

Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2018, 01:03:25 PM »
I am not sure but I think his opinion is Mullin should quit.

Only if he's half the man we think he is. Because when the going gets tough, real men resign.
If Santa, the Easter bunny , and the tooth fairy were this bad I would hope they would step down. Can’t be a fantasy forever.

See, you keep saying this but it makes no sense. Chris Mullin actually did play for ST John's and he was actually very good. We made the Final Four and everything. It was in all the papers. You could probably look it up. I know it is hard to believe ST john's was in a Final Four. Really it happened. So not sure what the correlation is to imaginary childhood symbols. Though I do think a grown man obsessed with childhood symbols could be considered disturbing.  But again Mullin is not Casey at the Bat. Or Ricky "Wild thing" Vaughn. Heck he is not even Jimmy Chitwood who was based off a real person.

So because Mullin is real and brought the program to a place that, lets all be honest for a second, we will never ever go again. I have decided to give him the respect he deserves. Hell I even don't bash Jarvis. No matter how it ended the Elite 8 team brought me joy. It would be the same for me if Walter Berry was coaching or if Strawberry or Gooden were managing the Mets. I am loyal. I guess certain people would not understand that characteristic though.

Listen I get it we suck, things look bad and at this point I would be surprised if Mullin can turn things around. People have a right to complain. But you are saying the same dumb shit over and over again.

johnniesfilmmaker

  • **
  • 80
  • Aspiring filmmaker
    • Through the Viewfinder
Re: Patience/Comparable Rebuilds
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2018, 01:06:08 PM »
A comparison to this year, would be the 1999-2000 BC Eagles.  A little different, because they actually won their conference opener before the long losing streak of mostly close games, and it was a weaker league, but the margin of defeats are eerily similar to us this year.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2000-schedule.html

And, with most everyone back, here's how they did the following season.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/boston-college/2001-schedule.html

Granted, that's an extreme jump even by the most optimistic of standards, but it would be nice to have something close to that next year.

And to go along with my experience point. Of the 7 players that averaged more than five points per game in 1999-20, only two of those players had played at least a year at Boston College. Of the 7 players to do it in 00-01, six of them had played at least a year at Boston College.

Of the six players to average more than five points per game for us this year, only three had played the year prior at St. John's and only two were starters. And our Strength of Schedule is 4 points higher than what the first BC team had to deal with.