Jermaine Lawrence - PF - Cincinnati Transfer - Bayside, NY

IMO Crean had a much easier task than Lavin had simply because it was the Indiana job.  That is one of the few jobs that recruits for itself.  Crean had an established reputation and no hiatus.  Doesn't matter what the roster looked like when Crean took over.  Once he did, he was in the conversation with loads of top kids. 

Lavin was out of bball as a broadcaster after being fired and run out of town at UCLA.  He came to bottom dweller SJU that people had forgotten about for a decade or two and had to replace double-digit scholarships in one season. 

Right now we are on a great track, but we still don't and won't have the pull of an Indiana.  We're getting back though, with real talent and moving up quickly.  No doubt in my mind Lavin had the tougher rebuild IMO.

IMO Crean had a much easier task than Lavin had simply because it was the Indiana job.  That is one of the few jobs that recruits for itself.  Crean had an established reputation and no hiatus.  Doesn't matter what the roster looked like when Crean took over.  Once he did, he was in the conversation with loads of top kids. 

Lavin was out of bball as a broadcaster after being fired and run out of town at UCLA.  He came to bottom dweller SJU that people had forgotten about for a decade or two and had to replace double-digit scholarships in one season. 

Right now we are on a great track, but we still don't and won't have the pull of an Indiana.  We're getting back though, with real talent and moving up quickly.  No doubt in my mind Lavin had the tougher rebuild IMO.

Please look at Crean's classes Marcus. 
Lavin brought in Top 5 class before the ball was even tipped with him coaching a game.  Guess that hiatus meant nothing.
Little objectivity here.  If your going to compare Crean's start to an STJ period try Norm's first couple of years.  However thats where it stops as Norm couldnt hold Crean's jock.

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 03:34:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:46:09 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:27:52 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:23:03 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

I don't think its something a coach would publicly say is great. Because then its a knock on the previous coach/players.

When you consider that Lavin was away from the game for so long to come into a situation where he has to fill 10 spots is not an ideal position to be in. Its not a great situation because you want your freshmen to learn from the upperclassmen both on and off the court, how to balance school, practice, working out, etc.. Heavy hitters or not, he's still locked in and won't have many ships available until 2015. Crean didn't have worry about that, his ships were already staggered. The fact that he brought in a top 10 class his first year is more of a testament on Lavin's ability rather than the situation, IMO. This program wasn't relevant! National programs bounce back from sanctions. Baylor had a murder on there hands! it didn't impact their recruiting success.

I don't know enough about Crean's teams but he had to field a team so he took walkons I guess or gave some walkons schollies.  Not sure how many were taken away.  I just remember the teams were bad and he didn't have many guys.  Otherwise he would have had a massive class.

As for Baylor it did impact their recruiting. 

8-21
9-19
4-13
15-16
21-11

Those were Scott Drew's first 5 yrs at Baylor (after the murder)

I look at it from the standpoint of the long term impact on recruiting. Most coaches spend years developing relationships with kids before they commit. It takes time. 3-4 years is what I would expect for a quality coach to turn around any program. You make contact with a kid freshman year of HS and some even sooner to land them, so maybe initially, the murder or sanctions may have affected the program, but long term, the program survives. Baylor was involved in a murder cover up not to long ago, and yet they are in on all the top talent and landing them. Although Indiana had sanctions, they were still considered a better program than us, which is why IMO, Lavin had a tougher job since he has to resurrect our program.

Quote from: boo3 on February 05, 2013, 03:54:53 PM

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 03:50:50 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

No one is saying losing out on those recruits is a good thing. Of course they would have made a huge impact on the program. However, it's also not the end of the world either. As long as we are moving in the right direction as a program, getting better year over year, then we shouldn't overreact to the fact we lost out on another 5 star recruit. It's not the first, nor the last 5 star recruit we will lose. Progress is being made, regardless of which 5 star recruit we don't happen to sign.

 Come on.. We are doomed.      Don't be delusional.   

Its Doomed (TM)

Actually, you want Doomed^©, unless you're coming out with a clothing line or other merchandise featuring "Doomed" as the logo, then adding ^TM works too.   

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 03:40:16 PM

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 03:34:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:46:09 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:27:52 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:23:03 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

I don't think its something a coach would publicly say is great. Because then its a knock on the previous coach/players.

When you consider that Lavin was away from the game for so long to come into a situation where he has to fill 10 spots is not an ideal position to be in. Its not a great situation because you want your freshmen to learn from the upperclassmen both on and off the court, how to balance school, practice, working out, etc.. Heavy hitters or not, he's still locked in and won't have many ships available until 2015. Crean didn't have worry about that, his ships were already staggered. The fact that he brought in a top 10 class his first year is more of a testament on Lavin's ability rather than the situation, IMO. This program wasn't relevant! National programs bounce back from sanctions. Baylor had a murder on there hands! it didn't impact their recruiting success.

I don't know enough about Crean's teams but he had to field a team so he took walkons I guess or gave some walkons schollies.  Not sure how many were taken away.  I just remember the teams were bad and he didn't have many guys.  Otherwise he would have had a massive class.

As for Baylor it did impact their recruiting. 

8-21
9-19
4-13
15-16
21-11

Those were Scott Drew's first 5 yrs at Baylor (after the murder)

I look at it from the standpoint of the long term impact on recruiting. Most coaches spend years developing relationships with kids before they commit. It takes time. 3-4 years is what I would expect for a quality coach to turn around any program. You make contact with a kid freshman year of HS and some even sooner to land them, so maybe initially, the murder or sanctions may have affected the program, but long term, the program survives. Baylor was involved in a murder cover up not to long ago, and yet they are in on all the top talent and landing them. Although Indiana had sanctions, they were still considered a better program than us, which is why IMO, Lavin had a tougher job since he has to resurrect our program.

The difference is Baylor sucked before the murder issue.  I'm just not following the thinking here.  Lavin pulled in a Top 5 class before ever coaching a game.  So much for him laying groundwork years in advance.  Combine that with the fact he didnt have to coach a team of walkons thru NCAA violations and he did not have a tougher job than Crean.

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 03:55:36 PM

Quote from: boo3 on February 05, 2013, 03:54:53 PM

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 03:50:50 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

No one is saying losing out on those recruits is a good thing. Of course they would have made a huge impact on the program. However, it's also not the end of the world either. As long as we are moving in the right direction as a program, getting better year over year, then we shouldn't overreact to the fact we lost out on another 5 star recruit. It's not the first, nor the last 5 star recruit we will lose. Progress is being made, regardless of which 5 star recruit we don't happen to sign.

 Come on.. We are doomed.      Don't be delusional.   

Its Doomed (TM)

Actually, you want Doomed^©, unless you're coming out with a clothing line or other merchandise featuring "Doomed" as the logo, then adding ^TM works too.   

I'm in the industry so your damn right I'm gonna be making apparel

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 04:18:05 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 03:55:36 PM

Quote from: boo3 on February 05, 2013, 03:54:53 PM

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 03:50:50 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

No one is saying losing out on those recruits is a good thing. Of course they would have made a huge impact on the program. However, it's also not the end of the world either. As long as we are moving in the right direction as a program, getting better year over year, then we shouldn't overreact to the fact we lost out on another 5 star recruit. It's not the first, nor the last 5 star recruit we will lose. Progress is being made, regardless of which 5 star recruit we don't happen to sign.

 Come on.. We are doomed.      Don't be delusional.   

Its Doomed (TM)

Actually, you want Doomed^©, unless you're coming out with a clothing line or other merchandise featuring "Doomed" as the logo, then adding ^TM works too.   

I'm in the industry so your damn right I'm gonna be making apparel

LoL! I'd buy a shirt with the logo "We're Doomed".  Get on that!

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

I'm not thrilled about it either Linda, but the sky truly is not falling.   

http://zagsblog.com/articles/st-johns-among-those-pursuing-mudiay/
Could be the best player in the '14 class.    Not in NY,  in the whole class.   

I love the dopy responses from the cheerleaders for whom the staff can do no wrong.  I never said we were doomed or otherwise but to just blow off losing two high impact players that were in our own back yard ( wasn't Hicks supposed to help with that) is just ridiculous.  I am sure that if posters such as boo boo were around when we lost Alcinder to UCLA, he would have been the first to say, " no big deal", and we all know how that went.

In terms of Mudiay, he is also listed with a multitude of schools and we are not even his dream school as we were Macs and Jermains to some extent. But I'm sure if we don't get Mudiay, the cheerleaders will once again state" no big deal".

Who dis?

Quote from: MCNPA on February 05, 2013, 04:07:32 PM

IMO Crean had a much easier task than Lavin had simply because it was the Indiana job.  That is one of the few jobs that recruits for itself.  Crean had an established reputation and no hiatus.  Doesn't matter what the roster looked like when Crean took over.  Once he did, he was in the conversation with loads of top kids. 

Lavin was out of bball as a broadcaster after being fired and run out of town at UCLA.  He came to bottom dweller SJU that people had forgotten about for a decade or two and had to replace double-digit scholarships in one season. 

Right now we are on a great track, but we still don't and won't have the pull of an Indiana.  We're getting back though, with real talent and moving up quickly.  No doubt in my mind Lavin had the tougher rebuild IMO.

Please look at Crean's classes Marcus. 
Lavin brought in Top 5 class before the ball was even tipped with him coaching a game.  Guess that hiatus meant nothing.
Little objectivity here.  If your going to compare Crean's start to an STJ period try Norm's first couple of years.  However thats where it stops as Norm couldnt hold Crean's jock.

I'm being totally objective Moose.  Lavin's recruiting success here at SJU has nothing to do with the difficulty of the job.  Taking over at Indiana which is a top 5 job, for a coach like Crean coming off a bunch of success at Marquette is a much, much easier and enviable position.  No comparison.  It has nothing to do with the classes they brought in at the time.  Lavin did amazing things here considering the circumstances.

Lavin came in and we were a bottom 4 Big East team when Norm left and had a team full of seniors, leaving Lavin an entire team to recruit.   Norm's first few years here have absolutely nothing in common with a coach of Crean's stature taking over at a top 5 program like Indiana.

 Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not being objective.  I don't care whether Indiana had a few poor years under Davis.  Stepping in there is easier than taking over a SJU team that stunk for several coaches tenures prior to Lavin coming on board.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 04:38:20 PM

Who dis?

 Just a girl keep it real....ya know.

Unless you point out every single negative and harp on it, you're a cheerleader.

So be it.  I couldn't care less. 

Unless you point out every single negative and harp on it, you're a cheerleader.

So be it.  I couldn't care less.

No, he'll call him/herself a "realist"...

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 04:14:22 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 03:40:16 PM

Quote from: STJFAN on February 05, 2013, 03:34:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:46:09 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:27:52 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:23:03 PM

Quote from: DFF6 on February 05, 2013, 02:18:49 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 02:03:52 PM

How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

I don't think its something a coach would publicly say is great. Because then its a knock on the previous coach/players.

When you consider that Lavin was away from the game for so long to come into a situation where he has to fill 10 spots is not an ideal position to be in. Its not a great situation because you want your freshmen to learn from the upperclassmen both on and off the court, how to balance school, practice, working out, etc.. Heavy hitters or not, he's still locked in and won't have many ships available until 2015. Crean didn't have worry about that, his ships were already staggered. The fact that he brought in a top 10 class his first year is more of a testament on Lavin's ability rather than the situation, IMO. This program wasn't relevant! National programs bounce back from sanctions. Baylor had a murder on there hands! it didn't impact their recruiting success.

I don't know enough about Crean's teams but he had to field a team so he took walkons I guess or gave some walkons schollies.  Not sure how many were taken away.  I just remember the teams were bad and he didn't have many guys.  Otherwise he would have had a massive class.

As for Baylor it did impact their recruiting. 

8-21
9-19
4-13
15-16
21-11

Those were Scott Drew's first 5 yrs at Baylor (after the murder)

I look at it from the standpoint of the long term impact on recruiting. Most coaches spend years developing relationships with kids before they commit. It takes time. 3-4 years is what I would expect for a quality coach to turn around any program. You make contact with a kid freshman year of HS and some even sooner to land them, so maybe initially, the murder or sanctions may have affected the program, but long term, the program survives. Baylor was involved in a murder cover up not to long ago, and yet they are in on all the top talent and landing them. Although Indiana had sanctions, they were still considered a better program than us, which is why IMO, Lavin had a tougher job since he has to resurrect our program.

The difference is Baylor sucked before the murder issue.  I'm just not following the thinking here.  Lavin pulled in a Top 5 class before ever coaching a game.  So much for him laying groundwork years in advance.  Combine that with the fact he didnt have to coach a team of walkons thru NCAA violations and he did not have a tougher job than Crean.

My point about Baylor was to show another example that issues surrounding a program that may smear a program isn't something good coaches can't over come. So your point about Indiana being worst off because of their violations I don't agree with. Lavin's ability to pull in a top class is because of Lavin, not STJ, and is not indicative of Lavs being in a better situation but it does speak volumes of what he will be capable of doing given the time.

Quote from: desco80 on February 05, 2013, 03:58:06 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

I'm not thrilled about it either Linda, but the sky truly is not falling.   

http://zagsblog.com/articles/st-johns-among-those-pursuing-mudiay/
Could be the best player in the '14 class.    Not in NY,  in the whole class.   

I love the dopy responses from the cheerleaders for whom the staff can do no wrong.  I never said we were doomed or otherwise but to just blow off losing two high impact players that were in our own back yard ( wasn't Hicks supposed to help with that) is just ridiculous.  I am sure that if posters such as boo boo were around when we lost Alcinder to UCLA, he would have been the first to say, " no big deal", and we all know how that went.

In terms of Mudiay, he is also listed with a multitude of schools and we are not even his dream school as we were Macs and Jermains to some extent. But I'm sure if we don't get Mudiay, the cheerleaders will once again state" no big deal".

If you want to call me a Lavin cheerleader that's fine. I'm in his corner, I want him to do well. I even criticize some of the things he does. But if you look at our situation with a little bit of perspective instead of nitpicking everything he does or does not do, he's done a damn good job in a short period of time. In the grand scheme of things, losing McCollough and Lawrence could end up being "no big deal." You are not going to get every recruit. The fact that we were in the running for them in the first place is a huge accomplishment. We are spoiled right now because we are used to Lavin's recruiting ability. Sure it sucks we missed out on them, but I have confidence there will be someone else to fill out our roster.

If the day we hired Lavin, you told me in 2 years we'd have 7 top 100 recruits on the team and in year 3 (year 2 of recruiting), we would be sitting at 14-8 (6-4) I would definitely sign up for that. I assume all of you would have too. But for some reason we seem to have quite a few disgruntled fans. I don't understand it.

Unless you point out every single negative and harp on it, you're a cheerleader.

So be it.  I couldn't care less.

Sadly, that's what it's come to around here.

Quote from: desco80 on February 05, 2013, 03:58:06 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on February 05, 2013, 03:37:12 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 05, 2013, 03:14:22 PM

When you've hired the person that you believe is right for the job---especially when he has a successful track record---then you have to be patient and give him time to rebuild.  If there is no progress then, eventually, you have to move on.  But as long as things are moving in the right direction (as it is with St. John's) then you can't overreact to each little negative.

I love that Lavin is not so desperate to get any one recruit that he will sell his soul.  He knows that he can get the players he needs to make us successful.

Little negative??  Losing McCullough and now Lawrence, in back to back recruiting classes and who are both 5 star recruits and potential future NBA front line players is not a little negative.  It changes the whole scheme of things, the whole direction of the program.  Anyone who underestimates the impact that those two players would have had on the program is quite delusional.

I'm not thrilled about it either Linda, but the sky truly is not falling.   

http://zagsblog.com/articles/st-johns-among-those-pursuing-mudiay/
Could be the best player in the '14 class.    Not in NY,  in the whole class.   

I love the dopy responses from the cheerleaders for whom the staff can do no wrong.

Ahhh you got me!       Yup, I'm definitely a cheerleader.   

Quote from: Moose on February 05, 2013, 04:09:50 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on February 05, 2013, 04:07:32 PM

IMO Crean had a much easier task than Lavin had simply because it was the Indiana job.  That is one of the few jobs that recruits for itself.  Crean had an established reputation and no hiatus.  Doesn't matter what the roster looked like when Crean took over.  Once he did, he was in the conversation with loads of top kids. 

Lavin was out of bball as a broadcaster after being fired and run out of town at UCLA.  He came to bottom dweller SJU that people had forgotten about for a decade or two and had to replace double-digit scholarships in one season. 

Right now we are on a great track, but we still don't and won't have the pull of an Indiana.  We're getting back though, with real talent and moving up quickly.  No doubt in my mind Lavin had the tougher rebuild IMO.

Please look at Crean's classes Marcus. 
Lavin brought in Top 5 class before the ball was even tipped with him coaching a game.  Guess that hiatus meant nothing.
Little objectivity here.  If your going to compare Crean's start to an STJ period try Norm's first couple of years.  However thats where it stops as Norm couldnt hold Crean's jock.

I'm being totally objective Moose.  Lavin's recruiting success here at SJU has nothing to do with the difficulty of the job.  Taking over at Indiana which is a top 5 job, for a coach like Crean coming off a bunch of success at Marquette is a much, much easier and enviable position.  No comparison.  It has nothing to do with the classes they brought in at the time.  Lavin did amazing things here considering the circumstances.

Lavin came in and we were a bottom 4 Big East team when Norm left and had a team full of seniors, leaving Lavin an entire team to recruit.   Norm's first few years here have absolutely nothing in common with a coach of Crean's stature taking over at a top 5 program like Indiana.

 Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I'm not being objective.  I don't care whether Indiana had a few poor years under Davis.  Stepping in there is easier than taking over a SJU team that stunk for several coaches tenures prior to Lavin coming on board.

First of all Crean replaced Sampson not Davis.
Second of all 7 yrs off didnt seem to affect his recruiting.
If its Top 5 job and it was so much easier how come he didn't rebound quicker then?  Answer is NCAA violations.  Anyone who tries to say a job chalk full of violations is easier than what Lavin had is totally wrong.

Didn't we make the NIT the year before Lavin?

Norm is more similar to Creans situation.  What team did he take over again?  Take all your history stuff aside.  Two barren programs.

I mean this is pretty cut and dry.

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How was it easier when Lavin had a Top 5 class before even playing a regular season game.  He was pitching STJ, MSG, BE, NYC all that jazz.  Crean had a historic program on probation with nobody coming back.  In addition Lavin then took the team he had and took them the to the NCAA's paving the way for excitement with the group coming in even higher.

Sorry but take a step back and look at what job you would have rather had.  Crean walking into a minefield, or STJ with a clean slate of schollies you can fill at your disposal.

I think Lavin walked into a good situation for instant success his first year, but Crean had the better program from which to build, IMO.  Plus, filling 10 spots at once is not a place that any head coach wants to find himself in year 2 of his tenure. 

On the contrary I think most coaches would love that chance.  Its a chance to make the team on their own and not deal with the previous regime's players hanging around.

Only thing you can look back on is what a few said last year.  Instead of going for all the heavy hitters maybe some role players and safer options so you  didn't have 3 ppl not make it to start and another fly the coop mid season.

I'll defer to your view on this Moose, but I don't recall Lavin talking about having to fill 10 spots in one year as a great position to be in.  He described it more as a challenge that would take some time before the fruit of his labors of "filling the arc" would materialize.  Maybe he was just exercising good expectation management skills.

I don't think its something a coach would publicly say is great. Because then its a knock on the previous coach/players.

When you consider that Lavin was away from the game for so long to come into a situation where he has to fill 10 spots is not an ideal position to be in. Its not a great situation because you want your freshmen to learn from the upperclassmen both on and off the court, how to balance school, practice, working out, etc.. Heavy hitters or not, he's still locked in and won't have many ships available until 2015. Crean didn't have worry about that, his ships were already staggered. The fact that he brought in a top 10 class his first year is more of a testament on Lavin's ability rather than the situation, IMO. This program wasn't relevant! National programs bounce back from sanctions. Baylor had a murder on there hands! it didn't impact their recruiting success.

I don't know enough about Crean's teams but he had to field a team so he took walkons I guess or gave some walkons schollies.  Not sure how many were taken away.  I just remember the teams were bad and he didn't have many guys.  Otherwise he would have had a massive class.

As for Baylor it did impact their recruiting. 

8-21
9-19
4-13
15-16
21-11

Those were Scott Drew's first 5 yrs at Baylor (after the murder)

I look at it from the standpoint of the long term impact on recruiting. Most coaches spend years developing relationships with kids before they commit. It takes time. 3-4 years is what I would expect for a quality coach to turn around any program. You make contact with a kid freshman year of HS and some even sooner to land them, so maybe initially, the murder or sanctions may have affected the program, but long term, the program survives. Baylor was involved in a murder cover up not to long ago, and yet they are in on all the top talent and landing them. Although Indiana had sanctions, they were still considered a better program than us, which is why IMO, Lavin had a tougher job since he has to resurrect our program.

The difference is Baylor sucked before the murder issue.  I'm just not following the thinking here.  Lavin pulled in a Top 5 class before ever coaching a game.  So much for him laying groundwork years in advance.  Combine that with the fact he didnt have to coach a team of walkons thru NCAA violations and he did not have a tougher job than Crean.

My point about Baylor was to show another example that issues surrounding a program that may smear a program isn't something good coaches can't over come. So your point about Indiana being worst off because of their violations I don't agree with. Lavin's ability to pull in a top class is because of Lavin, not STJ, and is not indicative of Lavs being in a better situation but it does speak volumes of what he will be capable of doing given the time.

Dealing in generalities like that we will have to just agree to disagree.  So your saying Lavin > Crean.  Which even I won't say.  Because if Indiana was worse off as you and Marcus feel than Lavin would have had them playing better than Crean quicker.  The only reason Crean could not get them back sooner was kids don't want to go to programs on probation for the most part.  What changed then?  Zeller committed to a losing program still but the veil was lifted. 

I'm just surprised people really think we were in worse shape than IND.

1. Kentucky
2. Kansas
3. North Carolina
4. Indiana

In my opinion, these are the top programs/best jobs in basketball.  There are others that are elite due to their current coaches.  I would probably put UCLA at #5.  The problem is that they are waiting for another John Wooden to come in.  Tough to say where Duke and Syracuse will be when their current HOF coaches retire.