St. John's - program and fan base expectations

Quote from: jr49 on September 08, 2011, 05:05:52 PM

Quote from: Dave on September 08, 2011, 04:29:55 PM

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

I think we sunk to low for to long to think elite. Elite would not have hired a first time head coach. Maybe B.M. was the first mistake. I am starting to think of the program as Big Time, maybe on the way back to elite.

There are other coaches on that list withi .600 percentages or better too. My point being is that people want to remember the last 10 years and forget first 60. It can't work like that.

Also the fact right now, St. John's has one of the highest paid coaching staffs in the country, charter flights, nike, media market, big east, nationally televised games, top notch sports information department, potential pros on current roster. Perhaps people don't realize the importance of this stuff because they are so close to it but this is stuff a large percentage of programs don't have.

I hope UA works its way into an exclusive contract with SJ's and gears out the baseball team too.  Not trying to stir the UA pot, as its been overcooked for days now, just sayin for a fun topic down the line

maybe you need to enhance the definition of elite--do you mean all time (and that includes NIT champs when it meant someting) or to you mean currently elite which could be anything like the current year, the past 2, the past 5 or the past 10.  this could go the same way as how many angels are on the head of a pin.

Your not elite just because you say you are. In this city, the Yankees are elite.
Everyone else, with the exception of maybe the Giants, is a pretender, and perenial bottom feeder.

Also the fact right now, St. John's has one of the highest paid coaching staffs in the country, charter flights, nike, media market, big east, nationally televised games, top notch sports information department, potential pros on current roster. Perhaps people don't realize the importance of this stuff because they are so close to it but this is stuff a large percentage of programs don't have.

All 100% true but now the results need to come and I do think they will. Every kid on this roster is unproven on the NCAA level and unfortunately St. John's fans of today have seen a previosuly #1 ranked recruiting class make 1 NCAA tournament.

The circumstances are VERY different today but until the results come will not know anything about this team and how their careers play out vs. how highly they are ranked coming in.

We certainly have a history of being an elite program. A looong history of success.  We have not been an elite program for the last 20 years or so, and lots of programs have passed us by.  Lavin has us back in the elite category recruiting-wise, but to cement all-ti,e elite status, we need some real sustained NCAA tournament success if not a national championship or two.  We have a nice history, but we have been celebrating a 1985 final 4 for too long. 

I have no idea what elite means, but we had a pretty good program under Coach C.  However, Coach C. had a bad habit of losing early round NCAA games we should have won.  But hey, look at his overall record and his inclusion into the HOF.

Coach Lavin has us aiming much higher than we did with Coach C.  He is trying to put together teams that battle for a place in the FF each and every year, not just make the NCAAs and, possibly, win a game or two.

This year's incoming team in total is clearly the best we probably ever had.  Ever!  Now they have to produce.

As we all can see, Coach Lavin is recruiting top tier players every year.  Someone mentioned in an earlier thread that KA is an elite player.  There is not doubts about that.  He, the Bayou Bull, and the 2011 crew are meant to make us elite.  Focus on the present and the future.  The past is too cloudy, particularly after the past 10-15 years.

ill say this. elite schools dont celebrate final four trips that happened before any of the students on campus were born.

we have a storied history. but its not elite.

Before the NCAA tourny the NIT tourney was the national championship. I believe they won a few of those. In the 80s they were d efinately considered elite .Three # 3 final season rankings 85,86 and I believe83. They were also ranked #1 for about a month in 1985. What Lavin and staff got out of that team last year was remarkable. I believe they again will achieve elite status in the not to distant future. They have the horses and the coaches.

ill say this. elite schools dont celebrate final four trips that happened before any of the students on campus were born.

we have a storied history. but its not elite.

I could easily argue then that Elite schools do not celebrate FFs that do not result in a Natty.  By my reasoning (and criterion), I could say that soon enough (about 5 years) Kentucky won't be elite. It's like a nose of wax that can be molded any way we choose.  But a series of agreed upon criteria should leave the upper 5% or so of schools in an Elite class.  I'll let some statistics guys figure that out.  I'm just an EE. 

Was someone saying earlier there is something going on with under armor sponsoring us? Please do tell!

We are either just inside or just outside the "Elite" barrier.  I think we can solidify that standing by getting to a few Final Fours over the next five years.  A championship would be the crowning achievement. 

It's very simple:

We were elite. Now we're not.

Maybe that changes now.

It's very simple:

We were elite. Now we're not.

Maybe that changes now.

Dont ya have to win something to be considered "elite"?

Baldi, yes you do, and have won before. Its just that it was 65 years ago.
Hey, the Pirates, Orioles and Blue Jays have all been elite. Hell, even the Raiders were once elite.

It's what you are now that matters to us, and to recruits.

Know who else was once elite? Iona.

Quote from: Dave on September 08, 2011, 05:40:45 PM

Quote from: jr49 on September 08, 2011, 05:05:52 PM

Quote from: Dave on September 08, 2011, 04:29:55 PM

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

I think we sunk to low for to long to think elite. Elite would not have hired a first time head coach. Maybe B.M. was the first mistake. I am starting to think of the program as Big Time, maybe on the way back to elite.

There are other coaches on that list withi .600 percentages or better too. My point being is that people want to remember the last 10 years and forget first 60. It can't work like that.

Also the fact right now, St. John's has one of the highest paid coaching staffs in the country, charter flights, nike, media market, big east, nationally televised games, top notch sports information department, potential pros on current roster. Perhaps people don't realize the importance of this stuff because they are so close to it but this is stuff a large percentage of programs don't have.

I hope UA works its way into an exclusive contract with SJ's and gears out the baseball team too.  Not trying to stir the UA pot, as its been overcooked for days now, just sayin for a fun topic down the line

Oh they're trying. My company is partners with UA and they'd love to land St. John's but the Nike/Basketball connection is very tough to break. I don't think UA has the budget to compete over the top with Nike right now.

Quote from: bball purist on September 08, 2011, 05:44:53 PM

Quote from: Dave on September 08, 2011, 05:40:45 PM

Quote from: jr49 on September 08, 2011, 05:05:52 PM

Quote from: Dave on September 08, 2011, 04:29:55 PM

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

I think we sunk to low for to long to think elite. Elite would not have hired a first time head coach. Maybe B.M. was the first mistake. I am starting to think of the program as Big Time, maybe on the way back to elite.

There are other coaches on that list withi .600 percentages or better too. My point being is that people want to remember the last 10 years and forget first 60. It can't work like that.

Also the fact right now, St. John's has one of the highest paid coaching staffs in the country, charter flights, nike, media market, big east, nationally televised games, top notch sports information department, potential pros on current roster. Perhaps people don't realize the importance of this stuff because they are so close to it but this is stuff a large percentage of programs don't have.

I hope UA works its way into an exclusive contract with SJ's and gears out the baseball team too.  Not trying to stir the UA pot, as its been overcooked for days now, just sayin for a fun topic down the line

Oh they're trying. My company is partners with UA and they'd love to land St. John's but the Nike/Basketball connection is very tough to break. I don't think UA has the budget to compete over the top with Nike right now.

Love to see it.   Under armor has some great athletic gear overall.  Better performance wear than Nike even if it doesn't have the pedigree nor dollars.  They're pretty big though.

UA can compete in football, baseball, but they're just making dents in basketball. Signing Kemba and Derrick Williams was a start in the right direction. I know the young kids like the gear but its all about the sneakers in basketball and UA is improving but Nike is king.

There seem to be as many definitions of "elite program" as there are posters. Two of the teams I root for - the Yankees and USC - fit into just about everyone's understanding of what that phrase represents. In the context of the thread title it means that if a program fails to be highly competitive with the very best in the sport it has become a lost season as far as the fan base is concerned. We are of course nowhere near that threshold yet.  However, there is now a sense of quiet exhilaration among the St. John's faithful. Why? Because Coach Lavin is methodically putting into place all the pieces that would enable us to make that quantum leap into elite status.

Zero championships in the modern era. One final four since the Truman administration. A record of 27-30 in the NCAA tournament since 1950, including 13 first round losses. Anyone who thinks that's an elite college basketball program is deluded.

This was an elite program in the 20s and 30s, when the Wonder 5 were trouncing the Savage Institute and mighty Saint Thomas College of Scranton PA. Sure, there were only 17 basketball teams back then, and all the players were white, and the best ones Jewish, but still, the glory days.

Since Lapchick the program has been a mediocrity, for most of that time led by a mediocrity - Lou Carnesecca - who (outside the Mullin Berry years) fattened his record by beating a pantheon of losers, cupcakes, tomato cans and never weres, year after year after year, until his inevitable first round NCAA tournament defeat. Since Louie - who despite these failings was perhaps the best coach in the history of mid major basketball - SJ has been at best irrelevant, and at worst a joke, a laughingstock and an embarassment

Back when there were 11 countries, France and Portugal were world powers. Now they're third world hamster in a wheel socialist shitholes.

We are Saint John's.

Elite is always difficlut ot define.  In any field.   But in most fields, if you're in the top 10 % in the world for what you do, you're considered "elite".    In division 1 college hoops, that woud mean being one of the top 35 teams over whatever period you're evaluating elite status for.   

From reading this thread, it appears fans are dropping that general "elite" status down to top 2 percent  - about 7 teams.    That seems too strict a definition to me.   Maybe 5% (15 teams) would be a better indicator.

But thats the quantative side of it.   What is the actual subject being quantified?   Is it just Win/Loss?   Is it conference success?  Is it tourney Success?  Is it Rankings success (subset Pre and postseason rankings)?   Is it recruiting success (youre already back on that one!)?   This is COLLEGE sport - should academics figure into the definition somewhere?   Is it post-coollege hoops success of your players?

Then theres the time frame.   Last 10 years?  Last 25?  Last Quarter Centery?   The 60+ years since the NCAA was formed?    Break it down by makeup of the Tourney (IE when the tourney format's been changed from 8 to 16 to 32  to 64 to whatever the heck it is now?)...

So.   Does there have to be a general consdensus on the parameters for an "elite" discussion?  Or is it like pornography to justice Potter Stewart  - something you simply know when you see it?