St. John's - program and fan base expectations

**I didn't want to get off topic in the Kyle Anderson thread so I started a new topic here..

Dave - please define elite in the context of a college basketball program.?


Much to my dismay, St. John's has not been an elite level program in my lifetime except for a 4 year stretch that started with Chris Mullin's Sophomore year.

Temple, ND & Penn are also in the Top 10 All Time wins, are they elite hoops programs..?

Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, UConn, Syracuse..   those are elite programs....   elite level programs have an expectation to be competing for the Final Four every year. They don't have occassional Top 10 recruitng classes, they just reload every year. Every school I listed has won a National Championship since the last time SJU was in the Final Four and some have won multiple.

This is not a knock on St. John's at all either, it is just the reality of the situation.

Coach Lavin and the staff have the program pointed in an incredibly good direction but they haven't accomplished anything on the court yet. Let's all hope they do great things moving forward but we need to remember where we have been lately before we start celebrating.

As Ed Norton said - be nice to the people you see on the way up, they are the same people you will see on the way down.

Being a level headed fan, I will say very good not elite. I'm a younger fan so never got to see the "glory" days but we do have alot to offer. The fact that we have no national championships and that we haven't been consistent over the last 10 years doesn't put us there but we still are very good and i believe an all time top 25 team. Hopefully, coach Lavin can bring us to elite eventually

**I didn't want to get off topic in the Kyle Anderson thread so I started a new topic here..

Dave - please define elite in the context of a college basketball program.?


Much to my dismay, St. John's has not been an elite level program in my lifetime except for a 4 year stretch that started with Chris Mullin's Sophomore year.

Temple, ND & Penn are also in the Top 10 All Time wins, are they elite hoops programs..?

Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, UConn, Syracuse..   those are elite programs....   elite level programs have an expectation to be competing for the Final Four every year. They don't have occassional Top 10 recruitng classes, they just reload every year. Every school I listed has won a National Championship since the last time SJU was in the Final Four and some have won multiple.

This is not a knock on St. John's at all either, it is just the reality of the situation.

Coach Lavin and the staff have the program pointed in an incredibly good direction but they haven't accomplished anything on the court yet. Let's all hope they do great things moving forward but we need to remember where we have been lately before we start celebrating.

As Ed Norton said - be nice to the people you see on the way up, they are the same people you will see on the way down.

I would add the two year Barkley stretch as well. Elite 8, BET championship, NCAA #2 seed. Otherwise I agree 100%

Yes but plenty of teams have had two year stints of great success but could never be considered elite all time programs, Davidson w/Steph comes to mind.  Plenty of marginal majors can have a couple of years of increased success by riding 1 or 2 great players.

Folks who call STJ an elite program would seem to not differentiate from old time hoops and modern hoops, the dividing line being some time in the late 70's to early 80's.  STJ did it's best to hold on to it's old school elite position during  the early period of modern hoops but fell back into the pack of very good programs (and then marginal programs the past 10 or so years).  It's 2011, this is the modern world.  What happened in the 40's-70's is immaterial.

We not elite...however, we have the chance to become in the elite in the upcoming future.

Yes but plenty of teams have had two year stints of great success but could never be considered elite all time programs, Davidson w/Steph comes to mind.  Plenty of marginal majors can have a couple of years of increased success by riding 1 or 2 great players.

Folks who call STJ an elite program would seem to not differentiate from old time hoops and modern hoops, the dividing line being some time in the late 70's to early 80's.  STJ did it's best to hold on to it's old school elite position during  the early period of modern hoops but fell back into the pack of very good programs (and then marginal programs the past 10 or so years).  It's 2011, this is the modern world.  What happened in the 40's-70's is immaterial.

With our sustained success and win totals, we were probably considered elite during the Mullin / Berry years at that time, no? Basically I agree with you, but I think if you could hop into a time machine back to 1985 I think the perception around the country was that SJU was an Elite program.

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

It's a compelling argument Dave.  One that I'd side with when comparing those stats as well as overall numbers.  Plus, SJ's is next on the list for the breakthrough Natty for the most successful programs.

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

Listen I hate them but I am pretty sure under any definition UCONN is elite.

The Chicago Cubs have the 2nd most wins in the history of professional baseball but haven't won a World Series title in 103 years. Does being #2 in historical wins make them an elite franchise..?

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

Talking all time, drop Syracuse, add Indiana.   Elite BEFORE Bobby Knight arrived.  National Champiohships in 5 different decades.   Does anyone know how good a coach Branch McCracken was?

Yes and St John's beat UCONN 22 straight. Prior to 1970 Syracuse was an early season cup cake. As for world begins in 1985 tell it to NBC they paid a hell of a lot of money for Notre Dame football. Which by that definition is not an elite program.

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

I think we sunk to low for to long to think elite. Elite would not have hired a first time head coach. Maybe B.M. was the first mistake. I am starting to think of the program as Big Time, maybe on the way back to elite.

Yes and St John's beat UCONN 22 straight. Prior to 1970 Syracuse was an early season cup cake. As for world begins in 1985 tell it to NBC they paid a hell of a lot of money for Notre Dame football. Which by that definition is not an elite program.

ND had its elite status in full swing under Lou Holtz.  Added to history, it felt elite back then.  Last 15 years are garbage.  Not sure if they'll ever get back at this rate.

Dont care bout histry.

What I do know is that in one year we gone from also-rans to straight up, unadulterated ELITE.

Quote from: yankcranker on September 08, 2011, 03:53:56 PM

Yes but plenty of teams have had two year stints of great success but could never be considered elite all time programs, Davidson w/Steph comes to mind.  Plenty of marginal majors can have a couple of years of increased success by riding 1 or 2 great players.

Folks who call STJ an elite program would seem to not differentiate from old time hoops and modern hoops, the dividing line being some time in the late 70's to early 80's.  STJ did it's best to hold on to it's old school elite position during  the early period of modern hoops but fell back into the pack of very good programs (and then marginal programs the past 10 or so years).  It's 2011, this is the modern world.  What happened in the 40's-70's is immaterial.

With our sustained success and win totals, we were probably considered elite during the Mullin / Berry years at that time, no? Basically I agree with you, but I think if you could hop into a time machine back to 1985 I think the perception around the country was that SJU was an Elite program.

That's what I meant when I said that STJ did its best to hold on to its elite status through the transition years into the modern era.  I'd argue that the decline from elite to another good program started after the '86 conference and regular season championship team and was complete a day or two after they hired Mahoney.  The isolated major successes since then barely rival Xavier in the qualifications for an elite team and that's 20 years now.

Dont care bout histry.

What I do know is that in one year we gone from also-rans to straight up, unadulterated ELITE.

I think I'll at least wait to see the new kids actually play a minute or 800 of college ball before I jump to that conclusion, we are talking about elite program - not elite staff, elite recruiting or elite image.

The Chicago Cubs have the 2nd most wins in the history of professional baseball but haven't won a World Series title in 103 years. Does being #2 in historical wins make them an elite franchise..?

I'm sure they are up at top for most losses too. This is a longevity thing as they were one of the first ball clubs. Comparing MLB to NCAA basketball is not the same.

Quote from: pmg911 on September 08, 2011, 04:44:15 PM

The Chicago Cubs have the 2nd most wins in the history of professional baseball but haven't won a World Series title in 103 years. Does being #2 in historical wins make them an elite franchise..?

I'm sure they are up at top for most losses too. This is a longevity thing as they were one of the first ball clubs. Comparing MLB to NCAA basketball is not the same.

Strawman argument if I ever saw one.  Dave, you presented valid stats with no attempt to twist them.  There is enough sustained excellence at SJU over its history to be at a minimum considered Elite imo.   

Quote from: Dave on September 08, 2011, 04:29:55 PM

http://johnnyjungle.com/tradition/past-coaches/


Lou Carnesecca, Joe Lapchick, Frank Mcguire, James Freeman all had .700 career winning percentages. That's all 23+ win seasons. This is over 50 years of the program.

That is ELITE.

Top of my head of elite programs: Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, Syracuse, UCLA

Some may value national championships more than wins but even if you balance out both St. John's is up there.

I think we sunk to low for to long to think elite. Elite would not have hired a first time head coach. Maybe B.M. was the first mistake. I am starting to think of the program as Big Time, maybe on the way back to elite.

There are other coaches on that list withi .600 percentages or better too. My point being is that people want to remember the last 10 years and forget first 60. It can't work like that.

Also the fact right now, St. John's has one of the highest paid coaching staffs in the country, charter flights, nike, media market, big east, nationally televised games, top notch sports information department, potential pros on current roster. Perhaps people don't realize the importance of this stuff because they are so close to it but this is stuff a large percentage of programs don't have.