Coaching Carousel Begins

Christian's wife is from Ohio.

And I think he might be pulling an Alford and staying one step ahead of the posse. How much more time would TCU have given him? Leaving now probably extends his coaching career.

Sounds that way.  Even better analogy is Greg McDermott leaving Iowa St 2 years ago to replace Dana Altman at Creighton.  Takes a step down and also goes back to his old conference, Missouri Valley.

Quote from: simplyred on April 01, 2012, 09:48:48 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on April 01, 2012, 09:29:43 PM

And Miss St has a new coach:

http://blogs.clarionledger.com/msu/2012/04/01/report-msu-hires-clemson-assistant-rick-ray/

I'll be the first to say it (and I'm Black so don't accuse me of the "they all look alike" syndrome).  This guy is almost a Norm Roberts clone, resume-wise, at the time that St. John's hired him.  Ray is even called a "homerun" by Brownell.  Let's hope he has more success.

I don't think anyone could have anticipated just how clueless Norm Roberts would be. It wouldn't be fair to paint every assistant coach with the same brush.

The key point is FBS schools should not be hiring career assistants to be their head coach.  No matter how successful their programs were they were not the leader and haven't proven that they can GM a team and staff.  It fails far more frequently than it works especially in this day and age.  Even in one of the weaker FBS basketball conferences like the SEC this guy is going against Cal, Billy the Kid, Frank Martin, Stallings, etc....  Tough position for a relative unknown quantity. 

Quote from: Poison on April 02, 2012, 08:17:42 AM

Quote from: simplyred on April 01, 2012, 09:48:48 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on April 01, 2012, 09:29:43 PM

And Miss St has a new coach:

http://blogs.clarionledger.com/msu/2012/04/01/report-msu-hires-clemson-assistant-rick-ray/

I'll be the first to say it (and I'm Black so don't accuse me of the "they all look alike" syndrome).  This guy is almost a Norm Roberts clone, resume-wise, at the time that St. John's hired him.  Ray is even called a "homerun" by Brownell.  Let's hope he has more success.

I don't think anyone could have anticipated just how clueless Norm Roberts would be. It wouldn't be fair to paint every assistant coach with the same brush.

The key point is FBS schools should not be hiring career assistants to be their head coach.  No matter how successful their programs were they were not the leader and haven't proven that they can GM a team and staff.  It fails far more frequently than it works especially in this day and age.  Even in one of the weaker FBS basketball conferences like the SEC this guy is going against Cal, Billy the Kid, Frank Martin, Stallings, etc....  Tough position for a relative unknown quantity.

Really?

Roy Williams was an assistant to Dean Smith when he got one of the best jobs in America at Kansas, how did that work out?

Tom Crean was an assistant at Michigan St when he got the job at Marquette, how did that work out?

Broad assertions are not fair.  Obviously getting an experienced coach who wins is preferable, it is not always available nor is it an exact science.

Quote from: yankcranker on April 02, 2012, 01:35:26 PM

Quote from: Poison on April 02, 2012, 08:17:42 AM

Quote from: simplyred on April 01, 2012, 09:48:48 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on April 01, 2012, 09:29:43 PM

And Miss St has a new coach:

http://blogs.clarionledger.com/msu/2012/04/01/report-msu-hires-clemson-assistant-rick-ray/

I'll be the first to say it (and I'm Black so don't accuse me of the "they all look alike" syndrome).  This guy is almost a Norm Roberts clone, resume-wise, at the time that St. John's hired him.  Ray is even called a "homerun" by Brownell.  Let's hope he has more success.

I don't think anyone could have anticipated just how clueless Norm Roberts would be. It wouldn't be fair to paint every assistant coach with the same brush.

The key point is FBS schools should not be hiring career assistants to be their head coach.  No matter how successful their programs were they were not the leader and haven't proven that they can GM a team and staff.  It fails far more frequently than it works especially in this day and age.  Even in one of the weaker FBS basketball conferences like the SEC this guy is going against Cal, Billy the Kid, Frank Martin, Stallings, etc....  Tough position for a relative unknown quantity.

Really?

Roy Williams was an assistant to Dean Smith when he got one of the best jobs in America at Kansas, how did that work out?

Tom Crean was an assistant at Michigan St when he got the job at Marquette, how did that work out?

Broad assertions are not fair.  Obviously getting an experienced coach who wins is preferable, it is not always available nor is it an exact science.

You forgot Tom Izzo.  But that's why I said it fails far more frequently than it works rather than saying it never works.  It's just a gamble that really isn't worth taking in this day and age.

And in this case I'd argue that Roy learning at the knee of Dean, Crean on the shoulder of Izzo and Izzo from Jud Heathcote is light years ahead of the knowledge that Brad Brownell passed on to Rick Ray or even what he received from Matt Painter.

Quote from: fordham96 on April 02, 2012, 01:57:54 PM

Quote from: yankcranker on April 02, 2012, 01:35:26 PM

Quote from: Poison on April 02, 2012, 08:17:42 AM

Quote from: simplyred on April 01, 2012, 09:48:48 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on April 01, 2012, 09:29:43 PM

And Miss St has a new coach:

http://blogs.clarionledger.com/msu/2012/04/01/report-msu-hires-clemson-assistant-rick-ray/

I'll be the first to say it (and I'm Black so don't accuse me of the "they all look alike" syndrome).  This guy is almost a Norm Roberts clone, resume-wise, at the time that St. John's hired him.  Ray is even called a "homerun" by Brownell.  Let's hope he has more success.

I don't think anyone could have anticipated just how clueless Norm Roberts would be. It wouldn't be fair to paint every assistant coach with the same brush.

The key point is FBS schools should not be hiring career assistants to be their head coach.  No matter how successful their programs were they were not the leader and haven't proven that they can GM a team and staff.  It fails far more frequently than it works especially in this day and age.  Even in one of the weaker FBS basketball conferences like the SEC this guy is going against Cal, Billy the Kid, Frank Martin, Stallings, etc....  Tough position for a relative unknown quantity.

Really?

Roy Williams was an assistant to Dean Smith when he got one of the best jobs in America at Kansas, how did that work out?

Tom Crean was an assistant at Michigan St when he got the job at Marquette, how did that work out?

Broad assertions are not fair.  Obviously getting an experienced coach who wins is preferable, it is not always available nor is it an exact science.

You forgot Tom Izzo.  But that's why I said it fails far more frequently than it works rather than saying it never works.  It's just a gamble that really isn't worth taking in this day and age.

And in this case I'd argue that Roy learning at the knee of Dean, Crean on the shoulder of Izzo and Izzo from Jud Heathcote is light years ahead of the knowledge that Brad Brownell passed on to Rick Ray or even what he received from Matt Painter.

I did not fail to mention Izzo since his situation is different, he simply succeeded his mentor at the same school.

Again experience is not always more preferable.  There are high major assistants who are probably more prepared to be a head coach at a BCS school then some very low mid-major head coaches.  That is just a fact.

Dave Rice was hired at UNLV to replace Lon Kruger after being an assistant at BYU.  Heck BYU hired Dave Rose after a career of being a life long assistant.

The fact is if you are not a top 10 job in America (UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Indiana etc) you are probably hiring a mid-major coach, a high level BCS assistant or a head coach who is currently not working (Lavin, Gottfried or Weber).  All of whom have their pros and cons.

First, I qualified the statement as FBS conference schools where the budgets, demands and expectations are far greater.  Now given the parameters I put forth for this debate how about you find some recent direct assistant coach hires who worked out rather than talking in generalities.  Here's some you can't use:  Norm, Amaker (at first job and arguably second), Quin Snyder, Johnny Dawkins (so far).  Oh and given the history and my crystal ball I'll add Chris Collins and Wojo to the list ; ).

First, I qualified the statement as FBS conference schools where the budgets, demands and expectations are far greater.  Now given the parameters I put forth for this debate how about you find some recent direct assistant coach hires who worked out rather than talking in generalities.  Here's some you can't use:  Norm, Amaker (at first job and arguably second), Quin Snyder, Johnny Dawkins (so far).  Oh and given the history and my crystal ball I'll add Chris Collins and Wojo to the list ; ).

Even then that is not fair.  First off we know jobs like Northwestern, S Florida, Oregon State, Texas Tech etc. are technically BCS jobs.  But we also know that certain jobs like UNLV among others are clearly better then some of these low level BCS jobs quite frankly.

Quote from: yankcranker on April 02, 2012, 02:31:15 PM

First, I qualified the statement as FBS conference schools where the budgets, demands and expectations are far greater.  Now given the parameters I put forth for this debate how about you find some recent direct assistant coach hires who worked out rather than talking in generalities.  Here's some you can't use:  Norm, Amaker (at first job and arguably second), Quin Snyder, Johnny Dawkins (so far).  Oh and given the history and my crystal ball I'll add Chris Collins and Wojo to the list ; ).

Even then that is not fair.  First off we know jobs like Northwestern, S Florida, Oregon State, Texas Tech etc. are technically BCS jobs.  But we also know that certain jobs like UNLV among others are clearly better then some of these low level BCS jobs quite frankly.

Yeah, but none of those schools went after career assistants during their last coaching hire either.  Two hired high profile mid major coaches and two actually went after coaches with past FBS experience based upon their understanding of the demands and expectations of their jobs.  OK.  I'll start your side of the debate.  Josh Pastner's done pretty well at Memphis so far.  They'll be in an FBS conference soon.

Keno Davis hired at Central Michigan.

Keno Davis hired at Central Michigan.

He took this year off?

Broadcatin big 10

And Jim Christian leaves TCU for Ohio U.

Bit surprising since TCU is about to officially become a BCS school.

BTW-You now have both SMU and TCU jobs open in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.  It seems both will probably pursue similar candidates.   Both are set to join bigger conferences.  Which one do you think is more attractive?  I think SMU has more money at least for basketball.

Fran Fraschilla maybe for either?

Quote from: fordham96 on April 01, 2012, 10:14:38 PM

And Jim Christian leaves TCU for Ohio U.

Bit surprising since TCU is about to officially become a BCS school.

BTW-You now have both SMU and TCU jobs open in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area.  It seems both will probably puruse similar candidates.   Both are set to join bigger conferences.  Which one do you think is more attractive?  I think SMU has more money at least for basketball.

Fran Fraschilla maybe for either?

The ship has sailed for Fran in my opinion, he has done that region before without success. If he does return to coaching think it has to be in the Northeast   

I think someone like Marquette assistant Tony Benford should be getting some play with these two openings.

SMU has to get someone with experience in there to lead that program.

I don't think Fran would be bad choice, he has probably learned a few lessons since his last gig and the time in broadcasting seems to have worked for Caoch Lavin.

**sidenote - a lot of people will tell you that SMU has THE best looking female student body in the country ***

I think someone like Marquette assistant Tony Benford should be getting some play with these two openings.

I think Steve McClain, assistant at Indiana with Crean will also get a look from both.  He was the former coach at Wyoming and was top assistant to Bzdelik at Colorado before Bzdelik left for Wake Forest.  McClain was a finalist for the Colorado job, that opened after Bzdelik left, with Dunlap that eventually went to Tad Boyle.  Then McClain went to Indiana. 

Quote from: yankcranker on April 02, 2012, 02:11:57 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on April 02, 2012, 01:57:54 PM

Quote from: yankcranker on April 02, 2012, 01:35:26 PM

Quote from: Poison on April 02, 2012, 08:17:42 AM

Quote from: simplyred on April 01, 2012, 09:48:48 PM

Quote from: fordham96 on April 01, 2012, 09:29:43 PM

And Miss St has a new coach:

http://blogs.clarionledger.com/msu/2012/04/01/report-msu-hires-clemson-assistant-rick-ray/

I'll be the first to say it (and I'm Black so don't accuse me of the "they all look alike" syndrome).  This guy is almost a Norm Roberts clone, resume-wise, at the time that St. John's hired him.  Ray is even called a "homerun" by Brownell.  Let's hope he has more success.

I don't think anyone could have anticipated just how clueless Norm Roberts would be. It wouldn't be fair to paint every assistant coach with the same brush.

The key point is FBS schools should not be hiring career assistants to be their head coach.  No matter how successful their programs were they were not the leader and haven't proven that they can GM a team and staff.  It fails far more frequently than it works especially in this day and age.  Even in one of the weaker FBS basketball conferences like the SEC this guy is going against Cal, Billy the Kid, Frank Martin, Stallings, etc....  Tough position for a relative unknown quantity.

Really?

Roy Williams was an assistant to Dean Smith when he got one of the best jobs in America at Kansas, how did that work out?

Tom Crean was an assistant at Michigan St when he got the job at Marquette, how did that work out?

Broad assertions are not fair.  Obviously getting an experienced coach who wins is preferable, it is not always available nor is it an exact science.

You forgot Tom Izzo.  But that's why I said it fails far more frequently than it works rather than saying it never works.  It's just a gamble that really isn't worth taking in this day and age.

And in this case I'd argue that Roy learning at the knee of Dean, Crean on the shoulder of Izzo and Izzo from Jud Heathcote is light years ahead of the knowledge that Brad Brownell passed on to Rick Ray or even what he received from Matt Painter.

I did not fail to mention Izzo since his situation is different, he simply succeeded his mentor at the same school.

Again experience is not always more preferable.  There are high major assistants who are probably more prepared to be a head coach at a BCS school then some very low mid-major head coaches.  That is just a fact.

Dave Rice was hired at UNLV to replace Lon Kruger after being an assistant at BYU.  Heck BYU hired Dave Rose after a career of being a life long assistant.

The fact is if you are not a top 10 job in America (UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, UNC, Indiana etc) you are probably hiring a mid-major coach, a high level BCS assistant or a head coach who is currently not working (Lavin, Gottfried or Weber).  All of whom have their pros and cons.

I now feel like MD was a top 10 job, not top 15     And when Lavs is done, I want SJ's to be a top 10 job too.

Reaching back a little, but about a week ago the thread was full of debate over the One and Done Rule. 

NYT's Website today has an article on the subject.
I think there's a misconception about how terrible it was when kids could go pro right out of high school.   Everyone is quick to point out how many kids who went pro were unprepared, and ended up failing flat on their face.

Stats paint a different picture. 

Between 95 and 2005 (when the 1 and done rule started)   39 players went straight from the HS to the NBA.
Including 9 All-Stars LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett, Amar'e Stoudemire,  Jermaine O’Neal, Tracy McGrady, Rashard Lewis, and Andrew Bynum.  (Which includes arguably 3 of the 4 best players in the league)

Plus another 6 who have been All-Star level players: Tyson Chandler, Monta Ellis, Josh Smith, Kendrick Perkins, Al Jefferson, and Al Harrington.

That's almost 40%.  If you throw in another group of players who we're over-hyped but had average nba careers like Darius Miles, Travis Outlaw, Lou Williams, JR Smith etc.. you get a percentage close to 60%.

Makes you realize that NBA GMs werent insane.   Most of the HS kids they drafted worked out.   And the perception that kids we're throwing away their lives isn't accurate either.  Most of the kids who declared made it in the NBA.   And even when they didn't, it was a reasonable risk to take.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/04/the-closer-sterns-argument-lacking/?ref=sports

It's hard for me to see why "adults" need to prevent kids from going pro, when their chances of making it in the NBA are pretty good. 
Is it a risk? yea.   But clearly not as big a one as many people think. 

A 60% success rate is stellar?  So if your favorite NBA team only gets a good player with 3 of every 5 first round picks you're happy?  I don't agree that's reasonable ROI or risk/reward for a teams valuable draft picks.  On a separate note David Stern was quoted today as saying if he could he'd add another year to make it 20 or 2 years removed.   Here's a quote:  "It's not that we say you have to go to college, it's that we say we would like a year to look at them and I think it's been interesting to see how the players do against first-class competition in the NCAAs and then teams have the ability to judge and make judgments, because high-ranking draft picks are very, very valuable."

A 60% success rate is stellar?  So if your favorite NBA team only gets a good player with 3 of every 5 first round picks you're happy?  I don't agree that's reasonable ROI or risk/reward for a teams valuable draft picks.  On a separate note David Stern was quoted today as saying if he could he'd add another year to make it 20 or 2 years removed.   Here's a quote:  "It's not that we say you have to go to college, it's that we say we would like a year to look at them and I think it's been interesting to see how the players do against first-class competition in the NCAAs and then teams have the ability to judge and make judgments, because high-ranking draft picks are very, very valuable."

Perhaps you could strengthen your arguement with a little research - what are the percentages for success in the pros for those that DO go to college first?  Looking back at the Knicks first rounder the last 15 years, thats Walter McCarty, John Wallace, Dontae Jones, John Thomas, Fredrick Weis, Donnel Harvey, Michael Sweetney, Channing Frye, David Lee, Renaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins, Wilson Chandler, Danillo Gallinari, and Jordan Hill.   

A 60% shot looks pretty good....I'm actually afraid to do the Nets - '95 would start with my own Bruins Ed O'Bannon - the likely #1 overall pick had he come straight out of high school.  Got the fullest college experience - College Player of the Year, NCAA champion, but it cost him his pro career, as he destroyed his leg as a freshman (they had to replace the ligaments in his leg with tendons from a freaking cadaver).  He could star at 2 games per week and a couple practice hours a day in college, but couldn't play back to back games, or 6 day a week practices in the pros.