Moe and the 2012 Draft

I figure this is going to be a topic for awhile till a decision is announced, so we might as well consolidate the threads...

I also didn't realize Moe talked about it in the post game press conference...

"St. John's forward Moe Harkless admitted to reporters that he is considering a jump to the NBA.
"I'm gonna sit down and talk to my coaches about it," said Harkless"

http://espn.go.com/new-york/ncb/story/_/id/7654238/moe-harkless-st-john-red-storm-consider-entering-nba-draft

I think he has some good people around him who will advise Moe to stay, and I'm not just saying that because it's what's best for StJ.   This is one of those cases where I think Moe actually has a lot to gain by returning (financially).  If were being honest about it.. the coaches on the pro level can teach him anything Rico and Dunlap would, but the difference between 2nd round and lottery is millions in guaranteed money.  That'll be the difference maker. 

Plus, when you get the lottery-sized contract, teams nurture their investment more.   Second rounders are expendable. 

He didn't talk about it in the press conference but afterwards was available for interview in the locker room. No one brought it up in the press conference, I for one didn't want to plant the seed.

He didn't talk about it in the press conference but afterwards was available for interview in the locker room. No one brought it up in the press conference, I for one didn't want to plant the seed.

Ok, well done then Dave ! lol    They made it sound like he brought it up himself in the press conference.   But that makes more sense.   Still his other comments they quoted make it sound like he's not considering it too hard. 

I respect any decision he makes, but I think one more year could definitely help him.

He'll be able to refine his perimeter skills a little more (assuming Lavin does indeed bring in some bigs) which he'll be playing in the pros (rather than a 4/5 like he did all year for us)

He WON'T be a lottery pick IMO in this deep draft, whereas he could possibly be next season.

Just don't think he's ready in terms of consistency.

But regardless, thanks for the year Moe and best of luck in anything you decide.

He has to consider it. That's the right thing to do. He should know where he stands. If it's #34, like Chad Ford suggests, he'll return, because he's not a hot head like Omar Cook.

Our season next year hinges on his decision. Whatever it is I respect his decision. I hope he stays, but won't blame him for going. It's not everyday you have an opportunity to make NBA money, and a lot can happen in a year.

However, I will say, my personal wishes aside, he needs another year to get stronger and play college ball. A lot of players with potential make the mistake of jumping before they are ready, I fear that he would be one of them.

With the Nba lockout this year, there has to a glut of players that would have left early but had no choice but to remain in school.  Making this the absolute worse time for Moe to go pro.  If he stays and even has a comporable year to this season,  he'll move way up in the draft on numbers alone.

Do the right thing Moe.  Come back and lead us to the promise land.  Just like MOEses. 

If he is a first round pick GOOD BYE. If he is a second round pick WELCOME BACK WELCOME BACK WELCOME BACK. But I think the team will be fine with out him. We need another pg another shooter( which I doubt we get) and two more bigs 6'7+ . I wanna see Dom and Amir improve their handle and shooting. Green get a damn break down move( how can u be from Chicago and can't boogie on your defender?!) and gods gift get tougher. Also Mr Harrison get a left hand. All he does is go right.

IMO college basketball gives you the spotlight but I dont always see the coalition that going or staying in college basketball makes you a better pro player It is a fact the NBA has the best coaches & the best tools for being  successful  in basketball.And I am a strong believer in the better the competition you play against the better you will become.
Also the D-league is getting better & better every year really allows the best of both worlds for player development because it allows the players to get reps in a minor league system that mirrors their parents teams system.

In Harkless situation he didn't have the hype of the Mcd-All Americans but proved he is better or on par with them because of the NCAA spotlight & has passed his rights of passage to the NBA. This will only helps Lavin with recruiting  & we will see Harkless number in the Carnesecca rafters a stellar pro career   

IMO college basketball gives you the spotlight but I dont always see the coalition that going or staying in college basketball makes you a better pro player It is a fact the NBA has the best coaches & the best tools for being  successful  in basketball.And I am a strong believer in the better the competition you play against the better you will become.
Also the D-league is getting better & better every year really allows the best of both worlds for player development because it allows the players to get reps in a minor league system that mirrors their parents teams system.

In Harkless situation he didn't have the hype of the Mcd-All Americans but proved he is better or on par with them because of the NCAA spotlight & has passed his rights of passage to the NBA. This will only helps Lavin with recruiting  & we will see Harkless number in the Carnesecca rafters a stellar pro career

I strongly disagree. There are a lot of players that could use another year of development by playing 40min. a game in college than getting 10 min. a game in the NBA to start off the bench. The goal should be to have your game well-rounded by the time you reach the league. Moe's not there yet. How many players besides Jeremy Lin have come out of the D-League and made big impacts on their teams? Not many.

The guy that seems eerily similar to Harkless that I think about is Anthony Randolph. He averaged very similar numbers to Harkless in college, but his game was so raw, he simply wasn't ready to go up against NBA talent and it showed. Had he taken another year of college I think he would've been stronger, and gotten the experience he would need to play in the NBA. Now, he still has the talent and potential to make a name for himself in the NBA, but I think he cost himself a year of valuable experience by jumping too early, and I feel Harkless may do the same. Randolph's been in the league for 4 years, he's only 22 and has spent most of his NBA career on the bench. Do any of you really think Harkless is ready to go bang with the NBA forwards? The raw talent is there, but he needs to refine his game. He needs to develop a better jumper and tighten up his handle.   

IMO college basketball gives you the spotlight but I dont always see the coalition that going or staying in college basketball makes you a better pro player ... 

You are absolutely right.  It is a fallacy.  In fact there has been a study done on it and there is no overall correlation.  People act like there aren't coaches available in the NBA to help a player improve his jumpshot or there aren't weight rooms available in NBA practice facilities to make a player stronger.

Staying the extra year isn't about improving strength or his jumpshot, those will improve whether he is here or in the NBA, it's just that it may be a wise investment for him to wait another year and get drafted higher than he would this year.  The higher you are drafted, the more the franchise has invested in you and that means they will give you every opportunity to succeed, which he may not have if he is a late first/ early 2nd round pick.  Not to mention the increase in salary between the 30th pick and 10th pick is pretty drastic.

late first round...early second round leaves him in the omar cook, erich barkley situation.

he can go in the lottery next year and get some nice guaranteed money.  he's too inconsistant to be a lottery pick this year.  no brainer here.

late first round...early second round leaves him in the omar cook, erich barkley situation.

he can go in the lottery next year and get some nice guaranteed money.  he's too inconsistant to be a lottery pick this year.  no brainer here.

I agree.

If he's content with being a first round pick then he's likely gone. I can't imagine an NBA team not taking him in the late first round, just way too much potential there. He would have to really not show well in workouts for that to happen.

But next year he's likely a top 10 pick. Maybe higher.

Is anyone here familiar with the European players?  How many are planning on entering the draft?

Two words: Omar & Cook. And Cook was better than Harkless.

Two words: Omar & Cook. And Cook was better than Harkless.

Was he?  I'm not quite sure.

Quote from: KAHNIGHT on March 07, 2012, 01:17:02 AM

IMO college basketball gives you the spotlight but I dont always see the coalition that going or staying in college basketball makes you a better pro player ... 

You are absolutely right.  It is a fallacy.  In fact there has been a study done on it and there is no overall correlation.  People act like there aren't coaches available in the NBA to help a player improve his jumpshot or there aren't weight rooms available in NBA practice facilities to make a player stronger.

Completely agree with both of you.   Think of it this way -- is an athlete going to improve more in an "amateur" setting; where he's limited to 2 hours of practice per day, can't see his coaches all summer, and has to also attend school in the process?   Or will he see better coaching/instruction when his only job is basketball?    It's the latter no question.    But the amount of guaranteed money is a serious factor, and if it's not there I would advise Moe to return. 

Quote from: TRabinowitz on March 07, 2012, 02:43:28 AM

Quote from: KAHNIGHT on March 07, 2012, 01:17:02 AM

IMO college basketball gives you the spotlight but I dont always see the coalition that going or staying in college basketball makes you a better pro player ... 

You are absolutely right.  It is a fallacy.  In fact there has been a study done on it and there is no overall correlation.  People act like there aren't coaches available in the NBA to help a player improve his jumpshot or there aren't weight rooms available in NBA practice facilities to make a player stronger.

Completely agree with both of you.   Think of it this way -- is an athlete going to improve more in an "amateur" setting; where he's limited to 2 hours of practice per day, can't see his coaches all summer, and has to also attend school in the process?   Or will he see better coaching/instruction when his only job is basketball?    It's the latter no question.    But the amount of guaranteed money is a serious factor, and if it's not there I would advise Moe to return.

1) guaranteed money is a big factor
2) bigger exposure helps to give free marketing to a player which can lead to better draft positioning
3) players get a LOT more training and fundamentals improvement than you realize in college
4). Most that are successful leaving early or skipping all together are sooo über-talented that they succeed regardless.

I personally believe that the preparation college ball provides is underrated.  I think that even Michael Jordan would tell you that.  Tons of guys go on to good pro careers only because of what college had to offer.  How many looks was Jameer Nelson going to get if he didn't go to college?  How much better would Mo Harkless have been had he skipped college and gone to the NBDL and does anybody think he'd really have been talked about this much had he done so?  I could go on and on, but the benefits of attending and staying in college at least 2 years IMO are too numerous to ignore.  Most kids would not develop skipping college all together and riding some pine in a developmental league somewhere. 

In Moe's case, he did himself a huge service by attending SJU this season.  He certainly wouldn't be making a bad decision fine leaves this year. I think he'd be making a much better decision for logistical purposes. If he leaves after one more season, he can erase any doubts and work his way from bottom of the first/beginning of second round into lottery if he does I believe.  Especially if he's as good as I thnk he can be.  Riding the pine in the NBA is a lot more fun with lottery-pick money.