Notre Dame Game

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 16, 2013, 12:08:49 PM

Quote from: redslope on January 16, 2013, 11:40:33 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 16, 2013, 11:33:54 AM

Boxscore has 30 boards for ND and 26 for us.

Why do I keep reading we outrebounded them?

You do not see the team rebounds where we had 10 to their 2.  This is what I was saying that this was truly a TEAM effort with everyone putting out to grab the ball

What is a team rebound?

I saw the same in the official team boxscore (that we had many
more "team rebounds")& looked back @ the game tape.

I looked back at the 1st 2 times they gave us "team rebounds": ( @ 11:33 & 9:20 of 1st half)
1st time- we took a shot, missed, ball deflected out of bounds off ND = team rebound for us
2nd time- we took a shot, missed, ND fouled us on rebound scuffle- they gave us a team rebound because we got ball back.
Similar must have happened 8 other times

Yea, team rebounds are a very misleading stat, you would think its similar to a gang tackle in football, but it's not. 
It's more appropriately, a "no one got the ball" play.  When a team takes a shot at the buzzer, the offense gets a team rebound.    When the ball hits off the rim and goes out of bounds you get a team rebound.
It's really not indicative of anything. 

google team rebounds for explanation

What's google?

Quote from: redslope on January 16, 2013, 12:15:07 PM

google team rebounds for explanation

What's google?

google google for an explanation.

He has a skill no one else on this year's team has.    Just the threat of him from the perimeter opens things up inside.  My Bruins made it to two final fours with Mike Roll filling that role.  Once upon a time, a guy named Lynn Shackleford became on of only 4 players to start on 3 NCAA title teams.    And he started as a Senior over a guy named Sidney Wicks.   Wicks would be College POY the next 2 years.   Wicks was the better player - but Shack was the better weapon for that team.

Anyway, you want to head out on the course with EVERY club in your bag.  You may not even think you need one of them, but you better darn well know how to use them all.   The only way we know how to use Marco when he's truly needed, is for him to get PT now, even tho Felix or Sir Dom or Amir might be as or more effective in todays situation.  That's not always going to be the case - we will NEED Marco in some game or games.   And we need him to be ready.

When your playing with the caliber of players were one will be the College POY and the supporting cast to win 3 NCAA titles, then it becomes easier for a player like Marco. You can't compare our situation to a roster loaded with talent. If you left your Driver at home the putter isn't going to do the job. We don't have the players to set Marco up.

Quote from: crgreen on January 16, 2013, 12:17:06 AM

He has a skill no one else on this year's team has.    Just the threat of him from the perimeter opens things up inside.  My Bruins made it to two final fours with Mike Roll filling that role.  Once upon a time, a guy named Lynn Shackleford became on of only 4 players to start on 3 NCAA title teams.    And he started as a Senior over a guy named Sidney Wicks.   Wicks would be College POY the next 2 years.   Wicks was the better player - but Shack was the better weapon for that team.

Anyway, you want to head out on the course with EVERY club in your bag.  You may not even think you need one of them, but you better darn well know how to use them all.   The only way we know how to use Marco when he's truly needed, is for him to get PT now, even tho Felix or Sir Dom or Amir might be as or more effective in todays situation.  That's not always going to be the case - we will NEED Marco in some game or games.   And we need him to be ready.

When your playing with the caliber of players were one will be the College POY and the supporting cast to win 3 NCAA titles, then it becomes easier for a player like Marco. You can't compare our situation to a roster loaded with talent. If you left your Driver at home the putter isn't going to do the job. We don't have the players to set Marco up.

Nor do we ever pass the ball crisply enough to beat the rotations.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 16, 2013, 12:08:49 PM

Quote from: redslope on January 16, 2013, 11:40:33 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 16, 2013, 11:33:54 AM

Boxscore has 30 boards for ND and 26 for us.

Why do I keep reading we outrebounded them?

You do not see the team rebounds where we had 10 to their 2.  This is what I was saying that this was truly a TEAM effort with everyone putting out to grab the ball

What is a team rebound?

I saw the same in the official team boxscore (that we had many
more "team rebounds")& looked back @ the game tape.

I looked back at the 1st 2 times they gave us "team rebounds": ( @ 11:33 & 9:20 of 1st half)
1st time- we took a shot, missed, ball deflected out of bounds off ND = team rebound for us
2nd time- we took a shot, missed, ND fouled us on rebound scuffle- they gave us a team rebound because we got ball back.
Similar must have happened 8 other times

I wouldn't consider either of those scenarios a "rebound".   Do these team rebounds count "officially" or is the Johnny website just trying to make it look like we outrebounded ND when the Espn boxscore, which I'd assume to be pretty official, has us getting outboarded by 4?

Answer

"A team rebound is awarded when no individual secures the rebound of a missed shot. THE STATISTIC HAS LITTLE MEANING-- its existence is primarily to ensure that the total number of rebounds equals the total number of missed shots, despite the fact that some shots don't have what one would normally consider a rebound."
 
Just as I thought.  We were outrebounded.

Answer

"A team rebound is awarded when no individual secures the rebound of a missed shot. THE STATISTIC HAS LITTLE MEANING-- its existence is primarily to ensure that the total number of rebounds equals the total number of missed shots, despite the fact that some shots don't have what one would normally consider a rebound."
 
Just as I thought.  We were outrebounded.

I think team rebounds count all the same.  Every missed shot has to be either made or have a rebound associated with it so I think a team rebound counts toward the total for each team.  Most team rebounds are a result of a good box-out that results in either an over-the-back call or the player just letting the ball go out of bounds.

Here is the official box score from the game from the Big East website.  http://www.bigeast.org/portals/5/fls/19400/stats/mbasketball/2012-2013/mndstj.htm

Answer

"A team rebound is awarded when no individual secures the rebound of a missed shot. THE STATISTIC HAS LITTLE MEANING-- its existence is primarily to ensure that the total number of rebounds equals the total number of missed shots, despite the fact that some shots don't have what one would normally consider a rebound."
 
Just as I thought.  We were outrebounded.

Outrebounded by player stats yes.  However the point is STJ controlled, through their own efforts or otherwise, more of the missed shots than UND and that is a good thing.  It is rare that a team gives up a team rebound if there is not some action by their opponents to force that team rebound.  IOW much more likely that a missed shot went out of bounds off of a UND player because he was being battled/defended/under duress of some sort from a STJ player than that it went out of bounds because the UND player simply touched it and couldn't catch it despite the fact he was standing all alone without a STJ player in the general area.  Exceptions would of course be missed UND shots that no one got to and they simply went out of bounds.  This is very rare except for the over the backboard variety.

Quote from: stevep502 on January 16, 2013, 12:28:43 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 16, 2013, 12:08:49 PM

Quote from: redslope on January 16, 2013, 11:40:33 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 16, 2013, 11:33:54 AM

Boxscore has 30 boards for ND and 26 for us.

Why do I keep reading we outrebounded them?

You do not see the team rebounds where we had 10 to their 2.  This is what I was saying that this was truly a TEAM effort with everyone putting out to grab the ball

What is a team rebound?

I saw the same in the official team boxscore (that we had many
more "team rebounds")& looked back @ the game tape.

I looked back at the 1st 2 times they gave us "team rebounds": ( @ 11:33 & 9:20 of 1st half)
1st time- we took a shot, missed, ball deflected out of bounds off ND = team rebound for us
2nd time- we took a shot, missed, ND fouled us on rebound scuffle- they gave us a team rebound because we got ball back.
Similar must have happened 8 other times

I wouldn't consider either of those scenarios a "rebound".   Do these team rebounds count "officially" or is the Johnny website just trying to make it look like we outrebounded ND when the Espn boxscore, which I'd assume to be pretty official, has us getting outboarded by 4?

UH, this is the basketball equivalent of the law of gravity.  What goes up, must come down.  By definition, if a shot goes up, it either goes in (no rebound) or it doesnt (rebound).  Whoever get's possession of the ball gets credit for the rebound.   It's pretty simple.  Determined by POSSESION OF THE BALL.   

If a player is fouled on the shot, there is no rebound, because by rule, there is no shot.   Unless the shot goes in, which again by rule, means no rebound.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 16, 2013, 02:16:43 PM

Answer

"A team rebound is awarded when no individual secures the rebound of a missed shot. THE STATISTIC HAS LITTLE MEANING-- its existence is primarily to ensure that the total number of rebounds equals the total number of missed shots, despite the fact that some shots don't have what one would normally consider a rebound."
 
Just as I thought.  We were outrebounded.

I think team rebounds count all the same.  Every missed shot has to be either made or have a rebound associated with it so I think a team rebound counts toward the total for each team.  Most team rebounds are a result of a good box-out that results in either an over-the-back call or the player just letting the ball go out of bounds.

Exactly, the old jump over the guy that has position and swat it out of bounds variety.  That would be a rebound or a positive change of possession.  Either way the team with position won the battle.  Again a good thing.

This is an incredibly stupid debate.   

The ESPN box score was wrong not because it didn't have Team Rebounds, but because it simply didn't attribute as many rebounds to St Johns players as the official scorer did.   

Team Rebounds as a start are essentially meaningless, pointing to them as an indicator that we played a "team" game is misleading at best. 

This is an incredibly stupid debate.   

The ESPN box score was wrong not because it didn't have Team Rebounds, but because it simply didn't attribute as many rebounds to St Johns players as the official scorer did.   

Team Rebounds as a start are essentially meaningless, pointing to them as an indicator that we played a "team" game is misleading at best. 

thank you.

Do these numbers from bigeast.org include this nonsense team rebounds?:

REBOUNDING MARGIN G Team Avg. Opponent Avg. Margin
1. Cincinnati 18 772 42.9 612 34.0 +8.9
2. Syracuse 17 734 43.2 584 34.4 +8.8
3. Pittsburgh 17 586 34.5 458 26.9 +7.5
4. Louisville 17 657 38.6 548 32.2 +6.4
5. Notre Dame 17 624 36.7 528 31.1 +5.6
6. Villanova 16 614 38.4 532 33.2 +5.1
7. Marquette 15 536 35.7 461 30.7 +5.0
8. Seton Hall 17 623 36.6 564 33.2 +3.5
9. Providence 16 609 38.1 558 34.9 +3.2
10. Rutgers 15 541 36.1 498 33.2 +2.9
11. Georgetown 14 469 33.5 456 32.6 +0.9
12. DePaul 17 622 36.6 654 38.5 -1.9
13. USF 15 520 34.7 567 37.8 -3.1
14. St. John's 17 619 36.4 678 39.9 -3.5
15. Connecticut 16 515 32.2 573 35.8 -3.6

Quote from: desco80 on January 16, 2013, 02:59:30 PM

This is an incredibly stupid debate.   

The ESPN box score was wrong not because it didn't have Team Rebounds, but because it simply didn't attribute as many rebounds to St Johns players as the official scorer did.   

Team Rebounds as a start are essentially meaningless, pointing to them as an indicator that we played a "team" game is misleading at best. 

thank you.

I wouldn't say it's meaningless, it's on par with another unofficial stat that only coaches monitor, which are deflections. It measures the effort of the team. Loose balls can go either way, if your not battling for it, the other team would most likely secure the rebound. However, do to the effort by a team when fighting for the ball, they get possession of the ball and is awarded a team rebound. The more possessions your team has the more shot attempts you can have, so it's not meaningless 

Quote from: shamsman2 on January 16, 2013, 03:03:35 PM

Quote from: desco80 on January 16, 2013, 02:59:30 PM

This is an incredibly stupid debate.   

The ESPN box score was wrong not because it didn't have Team Rebounds, but because it simply didn't attribute as many rebounds to St Johns players as the official scorer did.   

Team Rebounds as a start are essentially meaningless, pointing to them as an indicator that we played a "team" game is misleading at best. 

thank you.

I wouldn't say it's meaningless, it's on par with another unofficial stat that only coaches monitor, which are deflections. It measures the effort of the team. Loose balls can go either way, if your not battling for it, the other team would most likely secure the rebound. However, do to the effort by a team when fighting for the ball, they get possession of the ball and is awarded a team rebound. The more possessions your team has the more shot attempts you can have, so it's not meaningless

stat heads would tell you that absolute rebounding margin is not a reliable metric in the first place.  total rebounding percentage is the generally accepted way to measure a team's rebounding efficiency.  Different stat but the same story for us - currently ranked 269th in the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_rate

Quote from: STJFAN on January 16, 2013, 04:29:02 PM

Quote from: shamsman2 on January 16, 2013, 03:03:35 PM

Quote from: desco80 on January 16, 2013, 02:59:30 PM

This is an incredibly stupid debate.   

The ESPN box score was wrong not because it didn't have Team Rebounds, but because it simply didn't attribute as many rebounds to St Johns players as the official scorer did.   

Team Rebounds as a start are essentially meaningless, pointing to them as an indicator that we played a "team" game is misleading at best. 

thank you.

I wouldn't say it's meaningless, it's on par with another unofficial stat that only coaches monitor, which are deflections. It measures the effort of the team. Loose balls can go either way, if your not battling for it, the other team would most likely secure the rebound. However, do to the effort by a team when fighting for the ball, they get possession of the ball and is awarded a team rebound. The more possessions your team has the more shot attempts you can have, so it's not meaningless

stat heads would tell you that absolute rebounding margin is not a reliable metric in the first place.  total rebounding percentage is the generally accepted way to measure a team's rebounding efficiency.  Different stat but the same story for us - currently ranked 269th in the country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebound_rate

I don't like that.   I mean, it doesn't factor in shots or shot percentage.  Most teams garner more defensive rebounds than offensive rebounds in a game, since you have the typical advantage of blocking out.   If the other team is shooting a high percentage, and you are not, then it will be really skewed.

Why marco constantly mentioned? I can't remember him ever hitting a shot in any game

Why marco constantly mentioned? I can't remember him ever hitting a shot in any game

Missed the St. Francis game?