Does St Johns finish......?

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

I wouldn't sleep on them, but you have to figure they will meet a lot more resistance than ever before. This is not a league with 2 other good teams and the rest cupcakes...this is a conference stacked 1-8 and even Seton Hall and DePaul will give you more than you want many times. They have never been in a conference where almost every conference game is a NCAA tourney opponent. I expect they will still knock off some big boys but I just don't see them making a seamless transition like nothing changed.

I think that there will definitely be somewhat of a transition for them, but we're talking about a team that beat Cinci in the tourny last year, and gave Duke a run for their money too. They return a top candidate for National Player of the Year, in McDermott, and it would be huge if Gibbs came back for them. I would personally be pretty shocked if they didn't finish in the top 3-4 range in the Big East.

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

I wouldn't sleep on them, but you have to figure they will meet a lot more resistance than ever before. This is not a league with 2 other good teams and the rest cupcakes...this is a conference stacked 1-8 and even Seton Hall and DePaul will give you more than you want many times. They have never been in a conference where almost every conference game is a NCAA tourney opponent. I expect they will still knock off some big boys but I just don't see them making a seamless transition like nothing changed.

Why don't you do some homework on the Missouri Valley Conference first.

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

It's going to surprise a lot of people how good these new teams are, I think....

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

It's going to surprise a lot of people how good these new teams are, I think....

Agreed.  But it works BOTH ways.

These teams are going to find out that DePaul and Seton Hall are not Illinois St, Drake, Bradley, St. Boneventure etc.  They are going to see teams put their hands on players a lot in terms of defense (see Marquette).  Not just in a one-off non-conference game or a one and done Tourney game but in a 18 game conference.

We can all agree the new Big East is not the old Big East or the current Big 10 or ACC.  But it is also not the MVC or A-10. 

And my larger point is not that these teams right now are not good, they are.  Doug McDermott is a terrific player. 

But my larger point is the long term.  McDermott is the son of the coach.  If the Creighton's of the world among others are going to help make the new Big East a viable big time conference then they are going to have to step up their recruiting going forward.  See the addtion of Sellers to the staff.

It is not about winning the Missouri Valley Conference anymore.  Look at the type of players going to the top ACC and Big Ten and SEC and Big 12 schools.  The little fish in a big pond is great in the MVC but if the new Big East hopes to compete as a top conference with those others the recruiting footprint of all the schools needs to be big.

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

It's going to surprise a lot of people how good these new teams are, I think....

I completely agree.  Both are very good programs with great coaches.  MVC and A-10 are tough conferences...they are not the MAAC or NEC. 

I see us as a bubble team. I think it really depends on Jordan and Sanchez on if we are better than that. My concerns are:
1. If Harrison comes back, I am not sure that will work out. If Harrison was unhappy before, how is he going to feel potentially lossing shots and minutes? If Lavin got fed up with Harrison on a team with no other options, how much tolerance we he have now?-I PREDICT THIS WON'T END WELL
2. Team seems to have more talent, but still only has two somewhat dependable scorers.-Hopefully Sanchez and more likely Jordan help here, but I am not sold Harrison situation works out.
3. Harrison is the only shooter.-Again if that situation blows up again we are back to having no shooters.
4. Team has two real good players, two potential real good players and a bunch of solid players.-Way too many options for Lavin. KISS strategy seems to work best for coach.
5. Phil Greene love affair. Coach / Greene relationship seems to fall somewhere between Norm / Geno relationship and Michael Jackson / Macauly Culkin relationship.-The roster is more talented so logically, Phils's role should be decreased. I predict that does not happen.

If all my concerns come to fruition, I think we still are right on the bubble. If Sanchez and Jordan are as good as advertised, Sweet 16 would be a nice goal.

I see us as a bubble team. I think it really depends on Jordan and Sanchez on if we are better than that. My concerns are:
1. If Harrison comes back, I am not sure that will work out. If Harrison was unhappy before, how is he going to feel potentially lossing shots and minutes? If Lavin got fed up with Harrison on a team with no other options, how much tolerance we he have now?-I PREDICT THIS WON'T END WELL
2. Team seems to have more talent, but still only has two somewhat dependable scorers.-Hopefully Sanchez and more likely Jordan help here, but I am not sold Harrison situation works out.
3. Harrison is the only shooter.-Again if that situation blows up again we are back to having no shooters.
4. Team has two real good players, two potential real good players and a bunch of solid players.-Way too many options for Lavin. KISS strategy seems to work best for coach.
5. Phil Greene love affair. Coach / Greene relationship seems to fall somewhere between Norm / Geno relationship and Michael Jackson / Macauly Culkin relationship.-The roster is more talented so logically, Phils's role should be decreased. I predict that does not happen.

If all my concerns come to fruition, I think we still are right on the bubble. If Sanchez and Jordan are as good as advertised, Sweet 16 would be a nice goal.

Your concern is we are not a better team. If your going to bring  Macauly Culkin/ Michael Jackson or Gino into it, and not give coach enough credit to handle personnel properly then I guess you should have concerns with all the silliness mixed in. We are better. We are where the coach envisioned us going into year 4. We have more depth, experience and talent. Why would we not be better. Guys in the business have said, look out for St. Johns. I will give you this. Sometimes things don't work out. I'a not looking for things not to work out. I'm looking for this team to tear other teams up. I doubt coach going to be looking for Macauly or Geno.   

Quote from: Tha Kid on May 10, 2013, 09:40:42 AM

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

It's going to surprise a lot of people how good these new teams are, I think....

I completely agree.  Both are very good programs with great coaches.  MVC and A-10 are tough conferences...they are not the MAAC or NEC.

Who are Both?

Of course it is not the NEC or MAAC that is a straw man argument.  Nobody is claiming that and no way a team from either would ever get invited to new BE.  But don't even suggest those conferences recruit or play night in and night out at the same level as the old BE, the current Big 10 or the soon to be ACC.

Creighton and Butler are very good programs.  Stevens really coaches defense.  Creighton's McDermott is a bear and they can be dangerous.  They aren't the likes of Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt etc.  IMO, a team like Creighton is a bit like Notre Dame who we gave fits to over past few years.  These team's fit well into our conference, but I don't think they will find their schedule as forgiving as their prior conference schedules. 

I love that Creighton went out and hired Sellers.  It shows they are taking this seriously and they know they need to up the talent.   I think Stevens is an amazing coach. I'd like to see him start bringing more top 100 talent in.  If I were a player, I'd love to play for him.  I still think they will have a tougher time in this league than they had prior.

Creighton and Butler are very good programs.  Stevens really coaches defense.  Creighton's McDermott is a bear and they can be dangerous.  They aren't the likes of Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt etc.  IMO, a team like Creighton is a bit like Notre Dame who we gave fits to over past few years.  These team's fit well into our conference, but I don't think they will find their schedule as forgiving as their prior conference schedules. 

I love that Creighton went out and hired Sellers.  It shows they are taking this seriously and they know they need to up the talent.   I think Stevens is an amazing coach. I'd like to see him start bringing more top 100 talent in.  If I were a player, I'd love to play for him.  I still think they will have a tougher time in this league than they had prior.

This is a big year for Creighton.  First year in the new conference they will be exposed to a whole 'new' group of Northeast recruits.  Its great McDermott is coming back because it gives them a jump off point in the new conference.  Kids who never knew much about Creighton will now see them quite a few times.

Quote from: MCNPA on May 10, 2013, 10:28:31 PM

Creighton and Butler are very good programs.  Stevens really coaches defense.  Creighton's McDermott is a bear and they can be dangerous.  They aren't the likes of Syracuse, Louisville, Pitt etc.  IMO, a team like Creighton is a bit like Notre Dame who we gave fits to over past few years.  These team's fit well into our conference, but I don't think they will find their schedule as forgiving as their prior conference schedules. 

I love that Creighton went out and hired Sellers.  It shows they are taking this seriously and they know they need to up the talent.   I think Stevens is an amazing coach. I'd like to see him start bringing more top 100 talent in.  If I were a player, I'd love to play for him.  I still think they will have a tougher time in this league than they had prior.

This is a big year for Creighton.  First year in the new conference they will be exposed to a whole 'new' group of Northeast recruits.  Its great McDermott is coming back because it gives them a jump off point in the new conference.  Kids who never knew much about Creighton will now see them quite a few times.

McDermott is a bona fide Wooden candidate with a great potential to grab the award now that he he will be playing in a stronger conference.  His ability increases the stature of the conference and if he could win the Wooden think what it would do for the conference right out of the box.  I am looking forward to seeing him in person this upcoming season.

Quote from: Marillac on May 10, 2013, 02:13:51 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on May 10, 2013, 09:40:42 AM

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

It's going to surprise a lot of people how good these new teams are, I think....

I completely agree.  Both are very good programs with great coaches.  MVC and A-10 are tough conferences...they are not the MAAC or NEC.

Who are Both?

Of course it is not the NEC or MAAC that is a straw man argument.  Nobody is claiming that and no way a team from either would ever get invited to new BE.  But don't even suggest those conferences recruit or play night in and night out at the same level as the old BE, the current Big 10 or the soon to be ACC.

I was referring to Butler and Creighton...I thought that was clear. I don't see how you can interpret what I wrote as an "argument."  I was simply trying to put the MVC and A-10 in perspective.  While they are not the Big East or Big Ten, they are a whole lot closer to the big boys than the NEC or MAAC.

The conference schedule is no more than 18 games for most teams and there are bad teams in every conference, so it's not a "night in and night out" thing.  Butler played in a 5-bid league where the FIFTH place team made the freaking Sweet 16.  Butler won 27 games with an OOC schedule that included Marquette, North Carolina, Indiana, Gonzaga, Illinois, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt (they went 6-1 in those games) while many Big East programs were playing the likes of NJIT and Bryant.
 
Creighton, while having a less impressive schedule than Butler, did go 5-0 against its Big East/Big 10/Pac 10 foes (with an average margin of victory of 12 points) until it lost to Duke in the second round after beating Cincy from the Big East in the first round. Louisville played three MVC teams (none were Creighton) and beat them by only 5,3, and then 4 points. Only 9 times in 40 games did Louisville fail to beat its opponent by more than five points...three were MVC opponents (in three games) and five were Big East opponents (in 21 games).  Louisville beat Big East opponents by 15 points or more 13 times and two others by 12 or more.

I don't think conference affiliation makes that much of a difference.  What's the difference between a middle of the pack Big East team and a middle of the pack A-10 team?  Not that much. (8, 9, and 10 in Big East were Nova, Cincy, Prov and in A-10 it was Charlotte, St. Joe's and Richmond.  What about a middle of the pack MVC team...#6 out of 10 lost at Louisvile by three and #5 beat Miami in Coral Gables...both won 18 games). 

Don't buy the "middle of the pack" talk.  We return everyone from a winning team (17) last year.  Almost everyone will be an inproved rising soph or rising junior.    I think we are adding a 5 assist player to that mix.  I think we are adding two 6 reb a game players to that mix.  And I think we're adding 3 double digit scorers to that mix.

Anything less than challenging for the lead in the newconferernce lineup should be a disappointment.

Yet some on this site can 't wait to beat up on Lavin. The idea we gonna be good kills them. Why. We finelly getting to where I thought most here wanted us to be. Where 's the joy? We are SJU, and being good is where we headed.

who's beating up on lavin?  there's no way we could have gotten a better coach.  it's not his fault the big east has turned from the best conference in the country to a good conference.  in the short run it won't matter.  it's the long run that should have the fan base worried.

Quote from: fordham96 on May 10, 2013, 08:29:28 PM

Quote from: Marillac on May 10, 2013, 02:13:51 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on May 10, 2013, 09:40:42 AM

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

It's going to surprise a lot of people how good these new teams are, I think....

I completely agree.  Both are very good programs with great coaches.  MVC and A-10 are tough conferences...they are not the MAAC or NEC.

Who are Both?

Of course it is not the NEC or MAAC that is a straw man argument.  Nobody is claiming that and no way a team from either would ever get invited to new BE.  But don't even suggest those conferences recruit or play night in and night out at the same level as the old BE, the current Big 10 or the soon to be ACC.

I was referring to Butler and Creighton...I thought that was clear. I don't see how you can interpret what I wrote as an "argument."  I was simply trying to put the MVC and A-10 in perspective.  While they are not the Big East or Big Ten, they are a whole lot closer to the big boys than the NEC or MAAC.

The conference schedule is no more than 18 games for most teams and there are bad teams in every conference, so it's not a "night in and night out" thing.  Butler played in a 5-bid league where the FIFTH place team made the freaking Sweet 16.  Butler won 27 games with an OOC schedule that included Marquette, North Carolina, Indiana, Gonzaga, Illinois, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt (they went 6-1 in those games) while many Big East programs were playing the likes of NJIT and Bryant.
 
Creighton, while having a less impressive schedule than Butler, did go 5-0 against its Big East/Big 10/Pac 10 foes (with an average margin of victory of 12 points) until it lost to Duke in the second round after beating Cincy from the Big East in the first round. Louisville played three MVC teams (none were Creighton) and beat them by only 5,3, and then 4 points. Only 9 times in 40 games did Louisville fail to beat its opponent by more than five points...three were MVC opponents (in three games) and five were Big East opponents (in 21 games).  Louisville beat Big East opponents by 15 points or more 13 times and two others by 12 or more.

I don't think conference affiliation makes that much of a difference.  What's the difference between a middle of the pack Big East team and a middle of the pack A-10 team?  Not that much. (8, 9, and 10 in Big East were Nova, Cincy, Prov and in A-10 it was Charlotte, St. Joe's and Richmond.  What about a middle of the pack MVC team...#6 out of 10 lost at Louisvile by three and #5 beat Miami in Coral Gables...both won 18 games).

MAAC teams win games like that. 

Robert Morris beat Kentucky.

I said earlier one off games are different.

You cannot compare the 18 game schedule of the BE or Big Ten or ACC to the MVC or A-10.

NOT EVEN CLOSE AND THAT IS THE POINT.  Pointing out In St beat Miami without Reggie Johnson does not prove a middle of the pack MVC team could win double digits in the ACC.  Didyou see a bad Wake team Blow Out Miami, so what?

Again Illinois beat Butler and Gonzaga.  Minnesota started 15-1 with some great wins.  Both proceeded to go 8-10 in Big 10.  Are you seriously saying they would do the same in the A-10 orMMVC.

Put it to you another way if the Big East could have landed Illinois instead if Creighton who do you think they would have gone after and why?

Yet some on this site can 't wait to beat up on Lavin. The idea we gonna be good kills them. Why. We finelly getting to where I thought most here wanted us to be. Where 's the joy? We are SJU, and being good is where we headed.

We have been let down for a long time. Hesitation is pretty normal, don't you think?

Quote from: we are sju on May 10, 2013, 02:28:56 PM

I see us as a bubble team. I think it really depends on Jordan and Sanchez on if we are better than that. My concerns are:
1. If Harrison comes back, I am not sure that will work out. If Harrison was unhappy before, how is he going to feel potentially lossing shots and minutes? If Lavin got fed up with Harrison on a team with no other options, how much tolerance we he have now?-I PREDICT THIS WON'T END WELL
2. Team seems to have more talent, but still only has two somewhat dependable scorers.-Hopefully Sanchez and more likely Jordan help here, but I am not sold Harrison situation works out.
3. Harrison is the only shooter.-Again if that situation blows up again we are back to having no shooters.
4. Team has two real good players, two potential real good players and a bunch of solid players.-Way too many options for Lavin. KISS strategy seems to work best for coach.
5. Phil Greene love affair. Coach / Greene relationship seems to fall somewhere between Norm / Geno relationship and Michael Jackson / Macauly Culkin relationship.-The roster is more talented so logically, Phils's role should be decreased. I predict that does not happen.

If all my concerns come to fruition, I think we still are right on the bubble. If Sanchez and Jordan are as good as advertised, Sweet 16 would be a nice goal.

Your concern is we are not a better team. If your going to bring  Macauly Culkin/ Michael Jackson or Gino into it, and not give coach enough credit to handle personnel properly then I guess you should have concerns with all the silliness mixed in. We are better. We are where the coach envisioned us going into year 4. We have more depth, experience and talent. Why would we not be better. Guys in the business have said, look out for St. Johns. I will give you this. Sometimes things don't work out. I'a not looking for things not to work out. I'm looking for this team to tear other teams up. I doubt coach going to be looking for Macauly or Geno.   

I happen to like Lavin. I think that almost everyone here does. But the way the Harrison situation was handled was awful. Lavin ended his season-and he ended ours by doing so. For those who invested in this program, it was a pretty awful thing to do.

Quote from: Marillac on May 11, 2013, 12:02:00 AM

Quote from: fordham96 on May 10, 2013, 08:29:28 PM

Quote from: Marillac on May 10, 2013, 02:13:51 PM

Quote from: Tha Kid on May 10, 2013, 09:40:42 AM

Quote from: Dave on May 09, 2013, 10:55:24 PM

Don't sleep on Creighton especially if Grant Gibbs gets 1 more year of eligibility.

It's going to surprise a lot of people how good these new teams are, I think....

I completely agree.  Both are very good programs with great coaches.  MVC and A-10 are tough conferences...they are not the MAAC or NEC.

Who are Both?

Of course it is not the NEC or MAAC that is a straw man argument.  Nobody is claiming that and no way a team from either would ever get invited to new BE.  But don't even suggest those conferences recruit or play night in and night out at the same level as the old BE, the current Big 10 or the soon to be ACC.

I was referring to Butler and Creighton...I thought that was clear. I don't see how you can interpret what I wrote as an "argument."  I was simply trying to put the MVC and A-10 in perspective.  While they are not the Big East or Big Ten, they are a whole lot closer to the big boys than the NEC or MAAC.

The conference schedule is no more than 18 games for most teams and there are bad teams in every conference, so it's not a "night in and night out" thing.  Butler played in a 5-bid league where the FIFTH place team made the freaking Sweet 16.  Butler won 27 games with an OOC schedule that included Marquette, North Carolina, Indiana, Gonzaga, Illinois, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt (they went 6-1 in those games) while many Big East programs were playing the likes of NJIT and Bryant.
 
Creighton, while having a less impressive schedule than Butler, did go 5-0 against its Big East/Big 10/Pac 10 foes (with an average margin of victory of 12 points) until it lost to Duke in the second round after beating Cincy from the Big East in the first round. Louisville played three MVC teams (none were Creighton) and beat them by only 5,3, and then 4 points. Only 9 times in 40 games did Louisville fail to beat its opponent by more than five points...three were MVC opponents (in three games) and five were Big East opponents (in 21 games).  Louisville beat Big East opponents by 15 points or more 13 times and two others by 12 or more.

I don't think conference affiliation makes that much of a difference.  What's the difference between a middle of the pack Big East team and a middle of the pack A-10 team?  Not that much. (8, 9, and 10 in Big East were Nova, Cincy, Prov and in A-10 it was Charlotte, St. Joe's and Richmond.  What about a middle of the pack MVC team...#6 out of 10 lost at Louisvile by three and #5 beat Miami in Coral Gables...both won 18 games).

Are you seriously saying they would do the same in the A-10 orMMVC.

Do you struggle with reading comprehension or do you just like to create arguments out of thin air? I never wrote nor did I try to imply that Butler and Creighton would have had the same records if they were in the Big East. My sole point was that I THINK these teams will be tougher than a lot of people expect. I put out some statistics to try to put that in perspective. These are good programs with great coaches and they would have enjoyed success regardless of what conference they were in last year.

There is a lot of fat that needs trimming in every major conference.  After you take your lumps from from the top teams in the conference, there are plenty of teams that solid "mid-major" programs can beat with relative ease.  Do you think Creighton and Butler wouldn't have feasted on the likes of Depaul, St. John's,  Rutgers, Seton Hall, USF, and Providence?  That is potentially eight games right there...1/2 the Big East season.