Does St Johns finish......?

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 11:02:21 PM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on May 12, 2013, 10:44:50 PM

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 10:04:22 PM

Quote from: RedStormyNight on May 12, 2013, 08:39:50 PM

2-16 against the OLD Big East...aka the monster one including the national champs and a final four team. They played us extremely tough and they had like 3 or 4 nail biter losses by single digits. Without the top dogs like L'Ville, Cuse, Pitt, etc. DePaul has a chance to prove it can be just below average instead of pathetic. Put yourself in the shoes of a Bradley fan (if they exist).

Do you honestly expect to win against a Big East team? Not sure what your confidence in those bad MVC teams is backed by. Creighton is gone and all they have left is Wichita. They are back to being a likely 1 bid conference with the occasional 2 no different than the MAAC. The thing you aren't acknowledging is the talent disparity between the worst Big East teams and the 3rd to last MVC teams. MVC teams other than Creighton and Wichita are not exactly recruiting gurus. They are lucky to land one 4 star player.

If I'm a Bradley fan, and I actually know one, I'd expect to beat Depaul by 20, and that's during an off year. Georgetown is one thing, but there isn't magic that makes all BE teams better than mid majors. And this isn't a bs mid major conference like the MAAC. The MVC is legit.

We've played teams from that conference before. Remember Illinois State? They were a middle of the pack MVC team in 06-07. Remember what they did to us in our house?

Pomeroy had DePaul ranked above Bradley. Spread would be a near push on a neutral court. They are roughly equal most years.

If you consider what we know of Depaul, they are the worst BE program in the history of the conference. There really isn't a team out there that they couldn't lose to.

I was responding to your statement that Bradley fans should expect to beat them by 20. This leagues worst team is approximately equal to a middle of the pack MVC team (statistically). Conversely, Creighton's toughest comp in that league last year is approximately equal to a middle of the pack team in the Big East. MVC is a nice league but ours is definitely stronger. When mcdermott graduates, Creighton is likely to struggle. I'm not really sure why this is being contested.

I don't disagree that when McDermott leaves (player, not coach) they'll probably have a rough year or two but now they're in the Big East.  Instead of recruiting MVC level players they'll be recruiting the same level of player as the rest of the conference.  They're well positioned for success.  They hired a big time East Coast assistant, they're a school that has a FWIW a strong academic reputation, and have a very strong athletic department, and better fan support than pretty much every school in the conference.  They have a lot of potential.

Quote from: jr49 on May 12, 2013, 04:08:08 PM

Quote from: Foad on May 12, 2013, 10:42:37 AM

Quote from: jr49 on May 11, 2013, 10:41:46 PM

Foad., you ok

I'm fine, thanks for asking. I think Lavin has recruited a team that might be able overcome his obvious short comings and am looking forward to SJ winning its first NCAA tournament game since forever. Thunderbird is like a Phoenix rising from the ashes of the dust bin of history, nearly, and I'm as giddy as a baby on a swing. That's absent the sort of implosion that has evidently occurred more than once in TGAP career. Because you'd be hard pressed name another coach who's had such a public and bizarre falling out with his star play a few weeks before the NCAA tournament, much less two star players. Same thing happens on opposite coasts in different centuries and only one common variable, it almost suggests that -- no, that would be blasphemy. Just an eerie coincidence, move along, nothing to see here.

Question for you: is it possible to offer mild criticism of the coach without that being interpreted as a demand for the formation of a search committee? Because for me it's like what Groucho said, I love my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth every once in a while.

My answer to you is I get the feeling you can't wait for mishaps to occur, even ones that are the everyday average stuff that happens when you coaching a college hoops team. I think you take pleasure in ripping the guy. More pleasure then you get out of the team doing well. Now thats just what I get out of what you write, of course I can be wrong. You take the cigar out when you have something nice to say about coach?

I've been following SJ a long time. I don't have to wait for mishaps to occur, they occur regularly and have my entire lifetime. I expect them and am rarely disappointed. I wouldn't say I take pleasure from them, will cop to relishing the disappointments they engender in the pollyannas out there.

I'd disagree that a coach suspending more than one star player on opposite coasts in different centuries is "the everyday average stuff that happens" to a college coach. It seems to me to very much extraordinary.

As you say, your going back 15 years to rip the guy. I get it, you don't like the guy. When I read your posts I'll be aware your view is slanted and should not be taken as being on the up and up.

Quote from: Gray Chudney on May 13, 2013, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 11:02:21 PM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on May 12, 2013, 10:44:50 PM

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 10:04:22 PM

Quote from: RedStormyNight on May 12, 2013, 08:39:50 PM

2-16 against the OLD Big East...aka the monster one including the national champs and a final four team. They played us extremely tough and they had like 3 or 4 nail biter losses by single digits. Without the top dogs like L'Ville, Cuse, Pitt, etc. DePaul has a chance to prove it can be just below average instead of pathetic. Put yourself in the shoes of a Bradley fan (if they exist).

Do you honestly expect to win against a Big East team? Not sure what your confidence in those bad MVC teams is backed by. Creighton is gone and all they have left is Wichita. They are back to being a likely 1 bid conference with the occasional 2 no different than the MAAC. The thing you aren't acknowledging is the talent disparity between the worst Big East teams and the 3rd to last MVC teams. MVC teams other than Creighton and Wichita are not exactly recruiting gurus. They are lucky to land one 4 star player.

If I'm a Bradley fan, and I actually know one, I'd expect to beat Depaul by 20, and that's during an off year. Georgetown is one thing, but there isn't magic that makes all BE teams better than mid majors. And this isn't a bs mid major conference like the MAAC. The MVC is legit.

We've played teams from that conference before. Remember Illinois State? They were a middle of the pack MVC team in 06-07. Remember what they did to us in our house?

Pomeroy had DePaul ranked above Bradley. Spread would be a near push on a neutral court. They are roughly equal most years.

If you consider what we know of Depaul, they are the worst BE program in the history of the conference. There really isn't a team out there that they couldn't lose to.

I was responding to your statement that Bradley fans should expect to beat them by 20. This leagues worst team is approximately equal to a middle of the pack MVC team (statistically). Conversely, Creighton's toughest comp in that league last year is approximately equal to a middle of the pack team in the Big East. MVC is a nice league but ours is definitely stronger. When mcdermott graduates, Creighton is likely to struggle. I'm not really sure why this is being contested.

I don't disagree that when McDermott leaves (player, not coach) they'll probably have a rough year or two but now they're in the Big East.  Instead of recruiting MVC level players they'll be recruiting the same level of player as the rest of the conference.  They're well positioned for success.  They hired a big time East Coast assistant, they're a school that has a FWIW a strong academic reputation, and have a very strong athletic department, and better fan support than pretty much every school in the conference.  They have a lot of potential.

Again though it is not that easy to say they will recruit a better caliber player.  They will certainly need too.

Think of it this way, when a MAAC coach goes to coach in the Big East does that mean he instantly will start recruiting high level Big East players to this BE school simply because the conference demands it?  Not necessarily.  Doesn't always work that way and it is not that easy.

As you say, your going back 15 years to rip the guy. I get it, you don't like the guy. When I read your posts I'll be aware your view is slanted and should not be taken as being on the up and up.

I'm going back 15 years to note that history is repeating itself. This would be the farce time BTW. Fortunately I'm huge fan of farce and so like Lavin fine. I just think he's a bit of a numbskull. I'd probably rank him third with a bullet in the legendary pantheon of SJ coaches: Lou / Fran / Lavin / NorMahoney / Jarvae.

Question: when I read your posts should I consider them on the up and up? Does the fact that you loves him make your views slanted or are only those people who disagree with you biased? Before answering you might want to look up rhetorical question in the dictionary.

Quote from: RedStormyNight on May 13, 2013, 01:01:31 PM

Quote from: Poison on May 13, 2013, 12:24:25 PM

Quote from: RedStormyNight on May 13, 2013, 12:01:03 PM

Quote from: Poison on May 13, 2013, 08:41:23 AM

Quote from: RedStormyNight on May 13, 2013, 03:24:35 AM

You guys are essentially making the argument that the worst student at a very good school like Boston College is worse than the average student at SUNY Cortland. The analogy is saying the worst Big East team is worse than an average MVC team like Bradley. Sorry not buying it. You are nuts if you expect Bradley to beat DePaul by 20. Mighty mighty Bradley huh? And with Illinois State...ok they were good once recently? Who cares...every team has a good year every so often but that doesn't make you Big East material. Are we to crown Vermont as the new kings because they beat Cuse once? Same concept.

The MVC was the #8 best conference and that was WITH 2 powerhouses. One of them (Creighton) is now gone. They will definitely be at best the #10 conference if not worse. If there was a MAAC vs. MVC challenge a few years back when Siena beat Ohio State, when Manhattan, Iona, and Fairfield were good, they would give the MVC a run for their money. If they played each others teams I don't think you would see a big difference with the exception of Wichita State killing the MAAC teams.

The only point I'm making is that just about any D1 team could go 2-16 in the BE. Depaul lost a lot of close games to good teams, and they did that because they are a bad team. Saying that bad BE teams are better than bad MVC teams is kinda silly anyway. A bad team is a bad team. What does it matter?

Why do you lump mid majors with majors? You are ignoring the obvious dividing line that separates them. If I was comparing the MAAC to the MVC then yeah a bad team is a bad team and they are basically on the same level for the most part. But comparing the Big East to the MVC with the assumption that they are just as competitive and contain equally quality teams is just nonsense. A bad team isn't just a bad team. It's not black and white. The worst student at Harvard is going to be better than the average student at Adelphi University. That's just the way it is...there are different levels, thus it's all relative. Creighton did not play 1 ranked team last year in the regular season and finally lost when they faced their first in the tourney.

You say any team can go 2-16 in the Big East but look how many close games they had. They actually have good players they just can't win close games for whatever reason. Melvin, Young, and Crockett would beat Bradley 70% of the time. I can't even believe we are having a serious discussion about how the MVC stacks up against the Big East. Might as well talk about how the middle America East team can hang in the ACC next.

A bad mid major, and a true mid major like SIU, Brad,  and a program like Depaul are at the same level in terms of how strong the team is. Depaul is a high major in conference only. Every MVC team could do as well if not better than they have performed not only last year, but the last 7 years.

I addressed your point about the close games. Bad teams keep losing them. That defines Depaul. The answer to why is that as a team, Depaul has terrible chemistry. They do have talented players, but they don't work together. Clearly, they have an awful coach.

And, the MVC isn't the MAAC. That's a legit mid major conference.

If I didn't watch college hoops at all and you were the first person I'd talked to about it, I would assume the MVC was a major conference from your comments. They are a 1 bid conference deal with it.

A one bid conference which really isn't a one bid conference.

No, it's a one bid conference. No Creighton leaves them with WSU as the only near lock. And who's to say WSU can keep this up? After their current crop leaves they will be just like before IMO and just be a good not great team in the NIT. Who's getting the at large in the MVC? Indiana State? Don't think so. Maybe every 5 years or so they get 2 bids but most of the time just the auto bid.

Nothing is guaranteed for Creighton after McDermott and Gibbs leave. My god I mean we can recruit with some of the best of them and even we don't pan out most of the time. So even IF Creighton could recruit well it doesn't guarantee a thing. And the thing is, they can't recruit like us at least in the immediate next few years as they transition. Creighton is the #1 regional university in the midwest which is cool but they also accept over 70% of applicants. Something shady there. You don't get a McDermott every year. That's a once in a lifetime player. They may not see another player like him for 40 years.

Hopefully history repeats itself with a bunch of elite 8 appearances. Or, does that only work with negatives?

Quote from: jr49 on May 13, 2013, 02:27:24 PM

As you say, your going back 15 years to rip the guy. I get it, you don't like the guy. When I read your posts I'll be aware your view is slanted and should not be taken as being on the up and up.

I'm going back 15 years to note that history is repeating itself. This would be the farce time BTW. Fortunately I'm huge fan of farce and so like Lavin fine. I just think he's a bit of a numbskull. I'd probably rank him third with a bullet in the legendary pantheon of SJ coaches: Lou / Fran / Lavin / NorMahoney / Jarvae.

Question: when I read your posts should I consider them on the up and up? Does the fact that you loves him make your views slanted or are only those people who disagree with you biased? Before answering you might want to look up rhetorical question in the dictionary.

Whats not to like. No one wanted anything to do with us, now they do. We going into year 4 with guys in the know saying look out for us. Whats not to like? Opekpa, Sampson, Pointer, and Jordon all thought to have a chance to play in the NBA. I woulda thought all here to be happy with him.

Quote from: Foad on May 13, 2013, 04:17:49 PM

Quote from: jr49 on May 13, 2013, 02:27:24 PM

As you say, your going back 15 years to rip the guy. I get it, you don't like the guy. When I read your posts I'll be aware your view is slanted and should not be taken as being on the up and up.

I'm going back 15 years to note that history is repeating itself. This would be the farce time BTW. Fortunately I'm huge fan of farce and so like Lavin fine. I just think he's a bit of a numbskull. I'd probably rank him third with a bullet in the legendary pantheon of SJ coaches: Lou / Fran / Lavin / NorMahoney / Jarvae.

Question: when I read your posts should I consider them on the up and up? Does the fact that you loves him make your views slanted or are only those people who disagree with you biased? Before answering you might want to look up rhetorical question in the dictionary.

Whats not to like. No one wanted anything to do with us, now they do. We going into year 4 with guys in the know saying look out for us. Whats not to like? Opekpa, Sampson, Pointer, and Jordon all thought to have a chance to play in the NBA. I woulda thought all here to be happy with him.

I see basketball analysts saying lookout for us, but I haven't seen anyone with the guts to rank us, and that's the kind of season we all expect.

Quote from: yankcranker on May 13, 2013, 01:51:07 PM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on May 13, 2013, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 11:02:21 PM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on May 12, 2013, 10:44:50 PM

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 10:04:22 PM

Quote from: RedStormyNight on May 12, 2013, 08:39:50 PM

2-16 against the OLD Big East...aka the monster one including the national champs and a final four team. They played us extremely tough and they had like 3 or 4 nail biter losses by single digits. Without the top dogs like L'Ville, Cuse, Pitt, etc. DePaul has a chance to prove it can be just below average instead of pathetic. Put yourself in the shoes of a Bradley fan (if they exist).

Do you honestly expect to win against a Big East team? Not sure what your confidence in those bad MVC teams is backed by. Creighton is gone and all they have left is Wichita. They are back to being a likely 1 bid conference with the occasional 2 no different than the MAAC. The thing you aren't acknowledging is the talent disparity between the worst Big East teams and the 3rd to last MVC teams. MVC teams other than Creighton and Wichita are not exactly recruiting gurus. They are lucky to land one 4 star player.

If I'm a Bradley fan, and I actually know one, I'd expect to beat Depaul by 20, and that's during an off year. Georgetown is one thing, but there isn't magic that makes all BE teams better than mid majors. And this isn't a bs mid major conference like the MAAC. The MVC is legit.

We've played teams from that conference before. Remember Illinois State? They were a middle of the pack MVC team in 06-07. Remember what they did to us in our house?

Pomeroy had DePaul ranked above Bradley. Spread would be a near push on a neutral court. They are roughly equal most years.

If you consider what we know of Depaul, they are the worst BE program in the history of the conference. There really isn't a team out there that they couldn't lose to.

I was responding to your statement that Bradley fans should expect to beat them by 20. This leagues worst team is approximately equal to a middle of the pack MVC team (statistically). Conversely, Creighton's toughest comp in that league last year is approximately equal to a middle of the pack team in the Big East. MVC is a nice league but ours is definitely stronger. When mcdermott graduates, Creighton is likely to struggle. I'm not really sure why this is being contested.

I don't disagree that when McDermott leaves (player, not coach) they'll probably have a rough year or two but now they're in the Big East.  Instead of recruiting MVC level players they'll be recruiting the same level of player as the rest of the conference.  They're well positioned for success.  They hired a big time East Coast assistant, they're a school that has a FWIW a strong academic reputation, and have a very strong athletic department, and better fan support than pretty much every school in the conference.  They have a lot of potential.

Again though it is not that easy to say they will recruit a better caliber player.  They will certainly need too.

Think of it this way, when a MAAC coach goes to coach in the Big East does that mean he instantly will start recruiting high level Big East players to this BE school simply because the conference demands it?  Not necessarily.  Doesn't always work that way and it is not that easy.

I think it's pretty easy to say they'll recruit a higher caliber of player, just hard to say if it they will win enough of those recruiting battles to stay competitive in the Big East.  But the same coach at the same program with a better schedule and conference to play in and sell to prospects will almost surely raise the talent level, we'll see how much.  I think they'll also have the ability now to compete with B12 and Iowa for the top guys from middle america.

Whats not to like. No one wanted anything to do with us, now they do. We going into year 4 with guys in the know saying look out for us. Whats not to like? Opekpa, Sampson, Pointer, and Jordon all thought to have a chance to play in the NBA. I woulda thought all here to be happy with him.

Which brings us back to doh. You characterize any minor criticism as ripping and equate it with ontological dissatisfaction. It's your prerogative to do so, but that's not what happening. I'm certainly not complaining about his recruiting, that would be insane.

Adolf Rupp, what's not to like? He's a racist. Johnnie Calimari, what's not to like? He's a felon. Lou Carnesecca, what's not to like? He's intractable. Steve Lavin, what's not to like? He's not very good at coaching. Most people are loathsome. It's easy to find something not to like if look closely. OTOH if you want to bow and scrape and throw flowers in his path, by all means knock yourself out.

QUOTE- I'm going back 15 years to note that history is repeating itself. This would be the farce time BTW. Fortunately I'm huge fan of farce and so like Lavin fine. I just think he's a bit of a numbskull. I'd probably rank him third with a bullet in the legendary pantheon of SJ coaches: Lou / Fran / Lavin / NorMahoney / Jarvae.
-FUN

Now that it has been what almost 10 years can we look at the Jarvis tenure a little more unbiased? Sleazeball, check. Dirty, check. Forced school to hire clean, clueless coach, check. HOWEVER, w/o a doubt the most succesful on the court coach we have had since Louie. Really no debating that or the fact that the Elite 8 team was one of the most enjoyable to watch that we have had here since I have been a fan.
1.Louie
2. Jarvis
3. Lavin / Fran tie
4. Mahoney
5. Norm

Quote from: fordham96 on May 13, 2013, 03:51:46 PM

Quote from: yankcranker on May 13, 2013, 01:51:07 PM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on May 13, 2013, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 11:02:21 PM

Quote from: Gray Chudney on May 12, 2013, 10:44:50 PM

Quote from: Poison on May 12, 2013, 10:04:22 PM

Quote from: RedStormyNight on May 12, 2013, 08:39:50 PM

2-16 against the OLD Big East...aka the monster one including the national champs and a final four team. They played us extremely tough and they had like 3 or 4 nail biter losses by single digits. Without the top dogs like L'Ville, Cuse, Pitt, etc. DePaul has a chance to prove it can be just below average instead of pathetic. Put yourself in the shoes of a Bradley fan (if they exist).

Do you honestly expect to win against a Big East team? Not sure what your confidence in those bad MVC teams is backed by. Creighton is gone and all they have left is Wichita. They are back to being a likely 1 bid conference with the occasional 2 no different than the MAAC. The thing you aren't acknowledging is the talent disparity between the worst Big East teams and the 3rd to last MVC teams. MVC teams other than Creighton and Wichita are not exactly recruiting gurus. They are lucky to land one 4 star player.

If I'm a Bradley fan, and I actually know one, I'd expect to beat Depaul by 20, and that's during an off year. Georgetown is one thing, but there isn't magic that makes all BE teams better than mid majors. And this isn't a bs mid major conference like the MAAC. The MVC is legit.

We've played teams from that conference before. Remember Illinois State? They were a middle of the pack MVC team in 06-07. Remember what they did to us in our house?

Pomeroy had DePaul ranked above Bradley. Spread would be a near push on a neutral court. They are roughly equal most years.

If you consider what we know of Depaul, they are the worst BE program in the history of the conference. There really isn't a team out there that they couldn't lose to.

I was responding to your statement that Bradley fans should expect to beat them by 20. This leagues worst team is approximately equal to a middle of the pack MVC team (statistically). Conversely, Creighton's toughest comp in that league last year is approximately equal to a middle of the pack team in the Big East. MVC is a nice league but ours is definitely stronger. When mcdermott graduates, Creighton is likely to struggle. I'm not really sure why this is being contested.

I don't disagree that when McDermott leaves (player, not coach) they'll probably have a rough year or two but now they're in the Big East.  Instead of recruiting MVC level players they'll be recruiting the same level of player as the rest of the conference.  They're well positioned for success.  They hired a big time East Coast assistant, they're a school that has a FWIW a strong academic reputation, and have a very strong athletic department, and better fan support than pretty much every school in the conference.  They have a lot of potential.

Again though it is not that easy to say they will recruit a better caliber player.  They will certainly need too.

Think of it this way, when a MAAC coach goes to coach in the Big East does that mean he instantly will start recruiting high level Big East players to this BE school simply because the conference demands it?  Not necessarily.  Doesn't always work that way and it is not that easy.

I think it's pretty easy to say they'll recruit a higher caliber of player, just hard to say if it they will win enough of those recruiting battles to stay competitive in the Big East.  But the same coach at the same program with a better schedule and conference to play in and sell to prospects will almost surely raise the talent level, we'll see how much.  I think they'll also have the ability now to compete with B12 and Iowa for the top guys from middle america.

And hiring a big time east coast recruiter, which they apparently have done, is a big stepping stone to getting a better calibre east coast athlete.

MJ won with Frans players for the most part.

Lavin and Fran a tie?  Is that only for SJU?  It must be because Fran has done nearly nothing at the college level and has been fired from 2 jobs for personality issues.  He certainly recruited a very good class or two at SJU, but aside from that, has little to hang his hat on as far as overall body of work. 

I certainly think Lavin like anybody else can and should be criticized. To this point thought, except for a few recruiting miscalculations as well as some bad luck, we are exactly where Lavin had been projecting us to be and in the same time frame.  Lavin came in and said year 4 and 5 is when he expected us to have a roster where he wanted it, and right now we do and are looking at potentially a really good season ahead. 

I'm not sure at this point what anybody has to be upset about?  He had to rebuild our entire team and was out a year with cancer as well.  Rebuild seems pretty on-target and our roster is pretty stacked.  We are landing top 60 guys every year as well.  As far as Lavin's coaching, well I don't think he is Wooden, but his coaching record doesn't indicate that he's bad.

Yes here. They both have coached in one NCAA tourney game in two seasons, thus the tie. I judge by NCAA appearances. If I judged by UCLA Lavin would win. Penis size, based on his penchant for dropping his pants, then I would go with Fran.

Some of us marvel when STJ best coach lists only go as high as #2.  Thank you for remembering that Coach Lapchick was our best coach.

QUOTE-MJ won with Frans players for the most part.

Oddly, Lavin has only won with Norm's players

QUOTE-MJ won with Frans players for the most part.

Oddly, Lavin has only won with Norm's players

Lavin hasn't had much of a chance to win with his own players.  Dude was out with cancer for a season and roster had to be rebuilt.  Now that roster is rebuilt, I think you might get what you are expecting. 

QUOTE-Some of us marvel when STJ best coach lists only go as high as #2.  Thank you for remembering that Coach Lapchick was our best coach.

I said since I have been a fan. Lapchick last season was 1965, I was NEGATIVE 7 in 1965.

MJ won with Frans players for the most part.

He didn't always recruit quality people, but even his bad teams were better than Brian's & Norm's best teams. Jarvis is arrogant, but let's not totally throw away some good memories. Take away those, and you really have to go back 23 years.