God's Gift Critique

Quote from: MCNPA on November 07, 2013, 11:03:52 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on November 07, 2013, 10:48:32 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 07, 2013, 10:39:31 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on November 07, 2013, 10:02:17 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 07, 2013, 09:46:22 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on November 07, 2013, 09:32:16 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 07, 2013, 09:15:40 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on November 07, 2013, 09:02:20 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 07, 2013, 08:55:35 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on November 07, 2013, 07:45:16 PM

Not trying to be a dxck. What has he done to make u think he will help us? I hope he has 25 rebound and scores 30 points. But I don't think so

He was almost a 10pt 6 reb guy his first season, who scored over 50% from the field.  Why do you think he can't help?  He doesnt have to match your absurd numbers which make no point whatsoever.  Seems you really are just trying to be a dick because his first seasons numbers are very good and he just scored 24pts and a bunch of rebounds in our most recent exhibition. 

Yes, his numbers looked good. But, I think most centers in college basketball could put up 10 and 6 if they played 30+ min. per game. Not to mention even those already inflated stats were boosted even more from dominating against cupcakes then struggling against good teams (yes, I know there are a couple exceptions). I like Gift. He puts in a lot of effort and shows more hustle than maybe anyone on the team. He's also very strong. What he lacks is a lot of skill.  He seemed to miss very easy shots, and was an average at best rebounder. Hopefully he steps up this year. I don't think criticizing Gift for his performance 2 seasons ago is out of line. I also don't think any big east teams are shaking in their boots thinking about having to play him. 

Again, this is mostly unsupported stuff you're putting out there. 

"But, I think most centers in college basketball could put up 10 and 6 if they played 30+ min. per game"

No, hells no and absolutely not.  That's why they don't.  That is pure speculation and since "most" don't do that, theres no reason to assume that they can. 

"Not to mention even those already inflated stats". 

Umm, stats aren't inflated unless somebody is adding phantom numbers.  ALL players stats are an amalgam of their play in the early season against cupcakes as well as their conference play, much like Gift.  Gift had good games against cupcakes. He also had good games against at least 5 Big East schools, UK and others.  His stats are no more "inflated" than anybody else he is compared to. 

"He seemed to miss very easy shots, and was an average at best rebounder"

... He shot 53% from the field and averaged almost 6 rebounds per game.  He was also be of the top 8 offensive rebounders in the Big East which was the strongest conference in America.  So what you're saying is if he made those easy shots, he'd be 90% from the field??   Well, then yes I agree with you.  Stats say he made those shots for the most part better than most.  I addition, 6rebs per game is not "average at best" in any sense, especially in the Big East. 

Try as you will, his numbers are the only facts that can be looked at and they aren't poor in any stretch.  He was inconsistent at times for sure, and not a superstar, but his numbers were actually very solid overall.  That amalgam I spoke about.

This thread is dedicated to critiquing him, so I will.  I hate his new hair cut...

Everything I wrote is supported by my opinion, which is just as valid as yours.

"Most" centers aren't on teams with 6 scholarship players, all of which are freshman.  This is why I call his numbers inflated. What would his numbers have been had Sanchez or Obekpa been on that team? Dare I say they'd be cut in half? The only reason he was getting minutes later in the season was because we literally had nobody else to play the position.

You can't just look at numbers. Especially since they were so obviously skewed that year.

He averaged 5.6 rebounds as the starting center, averaging 30 MPG. Stop trying to argue he's some great rebounder.

If he comes anywhere close to his first year numbers I'll eat my words. But, I don't see it.

First off, I didn't support anything with opinion.  I did so with the facts.  More than that, Gifts numbers were as a first year JC transfer in his first season at this level. 

"You can't just look at numbers. Especially since they were so obviously skewed that year"

Sure you can.  The numbers are the sum of what he produced that year.  They weren't skewed.  He did play those games and earn those numbers, regardless of the fact that you don't like to give him credit for them.

I'm simply stating that there is a lot of denigration of Gift on these boards that it unsupported by the numbers which are a measurable way to assess a plaer's actually impact.  I dont think he'll be a starter and he will certainly have far inferior numbers.  But to say he can't be a contributor, or that he stinks is absurd and not supported by the numbers regardless of whatever delusions some posters here have. 

Ok , I give him credit for his 25 points against William and Mary. Then, will you at least acknowledge his pathetic BE games. Here are his numbers in consecutive BE games starting with Villanova:

PTS: 2, 2, 4, 15(DePaul), 9, 6, 2, 5, 2, 5, 5
REB: 1, 7, 5, 5, 6, 1, 3, 3, 2, 4, 6

How's that for backing up an argument?

I'll acknowledge and put you to bed:

Cincy: 9pts 5rebs
Providence: 9pts 6rebs
Kentucky: 18 pts10 rebounds
Uconn: 16 pts5 rebounds
Cincy 2: 9pts 5 rebounds
Marquette: 20pts 7 rebounds
USF: 11pts 6 rebounds
DePaul:  15 pts 5 rebounds
Syracuse: 9 pts 6 rebounds
Pitt: 17 pts 3 rebounds
Rutgers: 12 pts 8 rebounds
Pittsburgh: 6pts 12 rebounds. 

Yes, I acknowledge that the games you chose weren't the best, and he had a few more lackluster games.  But his games against real competition were inconsistent at worst.   Over and out...

But the games I pointed out were CONSECUTIVE. I didn't just pick and choose bad ones. There were plenty of other bad ones to choose from. I don't know if I'm supposed to be impressed about 9 and 5 against Cincy? I think that game could have been put in my post. I already acknowledged he had a few decent games against top teams but overall struggled. You seem to keep ignoring that and just focusing on the few games he played well.

I consider myself a realistic poster, but I'm sure others would call me more on the optimistic side. And as I've already stated, I love Gift. I just think he's in a bit over his head at this level and on this team. Would be ecstatic if he's able to give us 10 solid min of energy and hustle. Anything more than that I'll eat my words, as I've already said.

Just to correct you again, we didn't play Villanova, then DePaul CONSECUTIVELY that season so I'm not sure what you're talking about.  Just because he has 2 bad games in a row does not a player make either.  Moe Harkless had bad games for us too.

9-5 against a good Cincy team isn't good?  You're not realistic, youre delusional.   You have no idea how solid Gift's average numbers are.   Consider that our own Jayson Williams I believe "only" averaged something like 6.7 rebounds per game. 

I provided you with not a few games but  TWELVE very good games, not including his big games vs cupcakes like William and Mary but if you insist I will.   Overall he didn't "struggle", because the facts say he did not struggle and is in no way over his head at this level.  If he was over his head, he wouldn't be capable of the aforementioned games and others as well.  A player that doesn't belong at this level was Heath Orvis.  Gift had over a dozen big games vs legit competition in ONE season.  He didn't struggle...

I never said we played Villanova and DePaul consecutively. You are the ultimate homer. I hope Gift does well.

And you can think 9 and 5 is good for a starting junior center, getting 30 MPG, on a team with 6 players, but I don't. That's average at best.

Was confused on how you posted Gifts stats, but it doesn't matter.  He still averaged 9/5.6 as a first year Juco.  Those numbers are good.  Has nothing to do with being a homer.  You don't like stats.  Go find other "average at best" plsyers averaging 9pts 6rbs per game in other BCS leagues and look at the names you get.  I actually think he's average player at this level probably, but his numbers were actually better than average his first season if you compare him to others.  He can and has played well against this level of competition.  No need to think he can't earn minutes.  The uk game wasn't an anomaly though.  Consistency on his part is what we're looking for.

30 minutes a game.   Cumulative stats mean nothing without context.   If you play a full game standing in the lane, 5 rebounds will literally fall into your lap.   

Gift played 30mins a game, on a team where he was 1 of 6 scholarship players for most of the year, he was the only one over 18yrs old, and he was the biggest guy among them.    The fact he averaged 9/5 is in no way impressive.   It's the definition of mediocre in my mind.   Does he "suck" ?  No.   But he gets lost way too easily on defense  is an avg rebounder for his size and his offensive game consists of layups when he's handed the ball under the hoop.

Go back and look at my conversations with CR, and you will see how I've pointed out many times that gift was great against UK and in other 20+ pt losses.  But he was terrible in our close games, our win at Cinn, the OT game against Nova, the close UCLA win etc.  take a look but he played big mins In almost all our close games and he was invisible. 

With all that said, he seems like a good guy, reps the school well, and he wears our colors....so obviously I hope he's turned a corner and plays really well this season. 

But keep in mind coach barely played him in Europe, and if Chris O was available. how much would he really have played in the exhibitions?     The numbers just don't add up.  I think  Jakarr and Orlando play 30mins each, that leaves 20 for Obekpa.    Maybe GG gets 3 or 4 somewhere in there somewhere.  But that's gotta be the max.   

Shot 65% from the stripe in his one season and 67% in the exhibitions.

Will have value and get minutes late in games when Hollywood's afraid to have CO's ft shooting on the floor.

Gift will play 6-8mpg and will have a half a dozen DNP.  If he can average 2 and 2.5 that would be really good.

I'd expect him to play a similar role to what Maurice Sutton played for Villanova his redshirt senior year.

With all that said, he seems like a good guy, reps the school well, and he wears our colors....so obviously I hope he's turned a corner and plays really well this season. 

But keep in mind coach barely played him in Europe, and if Chris O was available. how much would he really have played in the exhibitions?     The numbers just don't add up.  I think  Jakarr and Orlando play 30mins each, that leaves 20 for Obekpa.    Maybe GG gets 3 or 4 somewhere in there somewhere.  But that's gotta be the max.   

On target IMO Desco!

I'd be shocked if he wasn't a big contributer.  He did come up small against most tough opponents two years ago, but this is now.

Big contributer, meaning eight points and five rebounds in limited playing time.

The bottom line is God'sGift was inconsistant his first year.  He's had the benefit of one extra year of professional coaching.  Given the minutes, he'll contribute.

I hope he is serviceable. Not expecting him to be . Who cares let's win tonight. I hope he hits the game winner. I would love it. U guys can all call me an idiot . That's fine if we win.

I hope he is serviceable. Not expecting him to be . Who cares let's win tonight. I hope he hits the game winner. I would love it. U guys can all call me an idiot . That's fine if we win.

SO now you don't think he was even serviceable his first year?  Geesh.  Like Dave said he's the 4th big.  Compare him to other 4th bigs and you'll understand his value.

Quote from: MCNPA on November 07, 2013, 08:55:35 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on November 07, 2013, 07:45:16 PM

Not trying to be a dxck. What has he done to make u think he will help us? I hope he has 25 rebound and scores 30 points. But I don't think so

He was almost a 10pt 6 reb guy his first season, who scored over 50% from the field.  Why do you think he can't help?  He doesnt have to match your absurd numbers which make no point whatsoever.  Seems you really are just trying to be a dick because his first seasons numbers are very good and he just scored 24pts and a bunch of rebounds in our most recent exhibition. 

This guy thinks Gift should be the next Wayman Tisdale (RIP) or else he is no help at all.  If he gives us 8 and 6 against Wisconsin, I would be ecstatic.  He is one piece to victory.  No one is saying he is going to carry the team.

Btw, I'm really trying to figure out why some fans hate players on the team they root for.  Other than Arod, I don't really understand that.

No horse in this race but why do you think that if someone doesn't think one of our players is as good as someone else thinks they are that that person hates our player? Just asking.

I don't hate gift. Think he was serviceable yesterday. Still don't expect 8 and 6 from a decent opponent

Quote from: simplyred on November 07, 2013, 11:23:30 PM

Quote from: MCNPA on November 07, 2013, 08:55:35 PM

Quote from: TONYD3 on November 07, 2013, 07:45:16 PM

Not trying to be a dxck. What has he done to make u think he will help us? I hope he has 25 rebound and scores 30 points. But I don't think so

He was almost a 10pt 6 reb guy his first season, who scored over 50% from the field.  Why do you think he can't help?  He doesnt have to match your absurd numbers which make no point whatsoever.  Seems you really are just trying to be a dick because his first seasons numbers are very good and he just scored 24pts and a bunch of rebounds in our most recent exhibition. 

This guy thinks Gift should be the next Wayman Tisdale (RIP) or else he is no help at all.  If he gives us 8 and 6 against Wisconsin, I would be ecstatic.  He is one piece to victory.  No one is saying he is going to carry the team.

Btw, I'm really trying to figure out why some fans hate players on the team they root for.  Other than Arod, I don't really understand that.

No horse in this race but why do you think that if someone doesn't think one of our players is as good as someone else thinks they are that that person hates our player? Just asking.

Phil, Gift and, to a lesser extent, Marco aren't just critiqued.  The attacks (by some) seem rather pointed.

I actually think Gift should have played more vs Wisconsin.  The limited time in there that he had, he looked pretty good. 

I actually think Gift should have played more vs Wisconsin.  The limited time in there that he had, he looked pretty good. 

He agree. He was one of the only guys who was playing hard.

Gift will play 6-8mpg and will have a half a dozen DNP.  If he can average 2 and 2.5 that would be really good.

I'd expect him to play a similar role to what Maurice Sutton played for Villanova his redshirt senior year.

So far right on cue.

Game 1
6 minutes
1 rebound
2 points

Game 2
9 minutes
3 rebound
2 points

Average
7.5mpg
2rpg
2ppg

Quote from: Dave on November 08, 2013, 01:34:42 AM

Gift will play 6-8mpg and will have a half a dozen DNP.  If he can average 2 and 2.5 that would be really good.

I'd expect him to play a similar role to what Maurice Sutton played for Villanova his redshirt senior year.

So far right on cue.

Game 1
6 minutes
1 rebound
2 points

Game 2
9 minutes
3 rebound
2 points

Average
7.5mpg
2rpg
2ppg

Quote from: Dave on November 08, 2013, 01:34:42 AM

Gift will play 6-8mpg and will have a half a dozen DNP.  If he can average 2 and 2.5 that would be really good.

I'd expect him to play a similar role to what Maurice Sutton played for Villanova his redshirt senior year.

So far right on cue.

Game 1
6 minutes
1 rebound
2 points

Game 2
9 minutes
3 rebound
2 points

Average
7.5mpg
2rpg
2ppg

Don't sprain your arm patting yourself on the back!