Was Norm Roberts a better talent evaluator then coach Lavin?

Dave please ban these two tools. You know exactly who I'm referring to. They make me and many others not want to visit these boards.

Quote from: Poison on November 28, 2013, 08:42:49 AM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 28, 2013, 02:09:32 AM

Quote from: Poison on November 28, 2013, 01:40:47 AM

Lavin is a terrific evaluator of talent. A freshman who wasn't good enough to play in the McD's game, was starting for the Magic two years later. Obekpa is the best shot blocker in the country.
Harrison is averaging 19 ppg. Sampson was the BE ROY. What in the hell are you talking about?

You want to call him out on Branch? Fine, but you don't understand what a high school ranking means. It's not a guarantee. A kid can get hurt, which he did. A kid can have a poor attitude, which Lindsay had, and kids can sometimes wind up ineligible to play. You want a new coach to build a house from the ground up, give him a chance to build a foundation. You don't like him? Who would you have hired instead?

And seriously, who the F did Norm Roberts evaluate accurately? Name ONE guy!

He told Cedric Jackson, a future NCAA tournament point guard, and oh yea, an NBA point guard to take a hike. How's that for evaluating talent? He had Hardy and Brownlee, his two best players buried on the bench for an entire season. He chose Malik Stith over Chaz Williams. He ignored Darryl "Truck" Bryant, who practically begged to come here.

Norm was either dumb as a brick or he was doing this to us intentionally.

I still think Harkless left too soon.  How's he oing now?  Obekpa is a great shot locker but at the expense of getting rebounds, and good defensive positioning.  He also has a limited offensive game. Sampson is no where near NBA ready?  And collectively, what has this team accomplished to date?  Even a mediocre team with mediocre talent will get an upset or two(. Note Roberts first few years) but this team has not come close.  In terms f me not liking Lavin, not true. I actually lie the guy but I don't like his constant sales pitch like trying to say that this is the teams toughest schedule yet, which is obviously a load of garbage.

And Lavin may have whiffed on a few good players as well.  Ron Roberts who Lavin had no interest in who is now averaging something like 18/8, and John Severe who is doing quite well for himself.    Also, in terms of Norm telling Cedric Jackson to take a hike, I don't believe that's quite accurate, as I believe that CJ transferred on his own as he believed ( and rightfully so) that his game was not being developed.

Ron Roberts is a fine player. Excellent point. If we had a 6'8 future star in Greece, we'd be where now?

So, this year, we have not come close to an upset after 5 games. Very astute of you. Share more of your wisdom with us. You're a real party favor. Obekpa changes games with his defense. Right now, he's the BE Defensive POY, and it's not close.

Ok, I will share some more wisdom as that seems sorely lacking on this thread.  In terms of upsets, I was talking about last year as well.  Except for the Marquette game we were rarely if ever even competitive against the ranked teams, with the game usually determined by halftime.  When you watch the Columbias of the world take Michigan State  to the wire, wouldn't you assume that a team with the abundance of talent that many claim we have, would at least be competitive on occasion! Against such teams?   

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 29, 2013, 03:39:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 28, 2013, 08:42:49 AM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 28, 2013, 02:09:32 AM

Quote from: Poison on November 28, 2013, 01:40:47 AM

Lavin is a terrific evaluator of talent. A freshman who wasn't good enough to play in the McD's game, was starting for the Magic two years later. Obekpa is the best shot blocker in the country.
Harrison is averaging 19 ppg. Sampson was the BE ROY. What in the hell are you talking about?

You want to call him out on Branch? Fine, but you don't understand what a high school ranking means. It's not a guarantee. A kid can get hurt, which he did. A kid can have a poor attitude, which Lindsay had, and kids can sometimes wind up ineligible to play. You want a new coach to build a house from the ground up, give him a chance to build a foundation. You don't like him? Who would you have hired instead?

And seriously, who the F did Norm Roberts evaluate accurately? Name ONE guy!

He told Cedric Jackson, a future NCAA tournament point guard, and oh yea, an NBA point guard to take a hike. How's that for evaluating talent? He had Hardy and Brownlee, his two best players buried on the bench for an entire season. He chose Malik Stith over Chaz Williams. He ignored Darryl "Truck" Bryant, who practically begged to come here.

Norm was either dumb as a brick or he was doing this to us intentionally.

I still think Harkless left too soon.  How's he oing now?  Obekpa is a great shot locker but at the expense of getting rebounds, and good defensive positioning.  He also has a limited offensive game. Sampson is no where near NBA ready?  And collectively, what has this team accomplished to date?  Even a mediocre team with mediocre talent will get an upset or two(. Note Roberts first few years) but this team has not come close.  In terms f me not liking Lavin, not true. I actually lie the guy but I don't like his constant sales pitch like trying to say that this is the teams toughest schedule yet, which is obviously a load of garbage.

And Lavin may have whiffed on a few good players as well.  Ron Roberts who Lavin had no interest in who is now averaging something like 18/8, and John Severe who is doing quite well for himself.    Also, in terms of Norm telling Cedric Jackson to take a hike, I don't believe that's quite accurate, as I believe that CJ transferred on his own as he believed ( and rightfully so) that his game was not being developed.

Ron Roberts is a fine player. Excellent point. If we had a 6'8 future star in Greece, we'd be where now?

So, this year, we have not come close to an upset after 5 games. Very astute of you. Share more of your wisdom with us. You're a real party favor. Obekpa changes games with his defense. Right now, he's the BE Defensive POY, and it's not close.

Ok, I will share some more wisdom as that seems sorely lacking on this thread.  In terms of upsets, I was talking about last year as well.  Except for the Marquette game we were rarely if ever even competitive against the ranked teams, with the game usually determined by halftime.  When you watch the Columbias of the world take Michigan State  to the wire, wouldn't you assume that a team with the abundance of talent that many claim we have, would at least be competitive on occasion! Against such teams?   

I fail to understand your point. What exactly is it? Stop referencing what others believe and tell us your position. Do you believe their is an abundance of talent on this team that warrants final four consideration? Is the coaching lacking? Examples to support the validity of your position would be helpful, I don't just want conjecture.

Quote from: SJUFAN on November 29, 2013, 05:29:14 PM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 29, 2013, 03:39:42 PM

Quote from: Poison on November 28, 2013, 08:42:49 AM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 28, 2013, 02:09:32 AM

Quote from: Poison on November 28, 2013, 01:40:47 AM

Lavin is a terrific evaluator of talent. A freshman who wasn't good enough to play in the McD's game, was starting for the Magic two years later. Obekpa is the best shot blocker in the country.
Harrison is averaging 19 ppg. Sampson was the BE ROY. What in the hell are you talking about?

You want to call him out on Branch? Fine, but you don't understand what a high school ranking means. It's not a guarantee. A kid can get hurt, which he did. A kid can have a poor attitude, which Lindsay had, and kids can sometimes wind up ineligible to play. You want a new coach to build a house from the ground up, give him a chance to build a foundation. You don't like him? Who would you have hired instead?

And seriously, who the F did Norm Roberts evaluate accurately? Name ONE guy!

He told Cedric Jackson, a future NCAA tournament point guard, and oh yea, an NBA point guard to take a hike. How's that for evaluating talent? He had Hardy and Brownlee, his two best players buried on the bench for an entire season. He chose Malik Stith over Chaz Williams. He ignored Darryl "Truck" Bryant, who practically begged to come here.

Norm was either dumb as a brick or he was doing this to us intentionally.

I still think Harkless left too soon.  How's he oing now?  Obekpa is a great shot locker but at the expense of getting rebounds, and good defensive positioning.  He also has a limited offensive game. Sampson is no where near NBA ready?  And collectively, what has this team accomplished to date?  Even a mediocre team with mediocre talent will get an upset or two(. Note Roberts first few years) but this team has not come close.  In terms f me not liking Lavin, not true. I actually lie the guy but I don't like his constant sales pitch like trying to say that this is the teams toughest schedule yet, which is obviously a load of garbage.

And Lavin may have whiffed on a few good players as well.  Ron Roberts who Lavin had no interest in who is now averaging something like 18/8, and John Severe who is doing quite well for himself.    Also, in terms of Norm telling Cedric Jackson to take a hike, I don't believe that's quite accurate, as I believe that CJ transferred on his own as he believed ( and rightfully so) that his game was not being developed.

Ron Roberts is a fine player. Excellent point. If we had a 6'8 future star in Greece, we'd be where now?

So, this year, we have not come close to an upset after 5 games. Very astute of you. Share more of your wisdom with us. You're a real party favor. Obekpa changes games with his defense. Right now, he's the BE Defensive POY, and it's not close.

Ok, I will share some more wisdom as that seems sorely lacking on this thread.  In terms of upsets, I was talking about last year as well.  Except for the Marquette game we were rarely if ever even competitive against the ranked teams, with the game usually determined by halftime.  When you watch the Columbias of the world take Michigan State  to the wire, wouldn't you assume that a team with the abundance of talent that many claim we have, would at least be competitive on occasion! Against such teams?   

I fail to understand your point. What exactly is it? Stop referencing what others believe and tell us your position. Do you believe their is an abundance of talent on this team that warrants final four consideration? Is the coaching lacking? Examples to support the validity of your position would be helpful, I don't just want conjecture.

Thank you for a civil response.  My point here is that I am trying not to blame what I believe to be gross underachievement on Lavin and staff by focusing on the collective talent pool he assembled.  If the results are lacking and Lavin was able to turn around a group of players said to be of a lesser caliber in his first season and have some great success, then what is the reason for these lack luster results? Are these players overated, again making Lavin a poor evaluator of talent or, is Lavin a great PR man but a limited coach.  Many on this site and that other one claim that there is keen interest of NBA scouts for our players.  If they are truly that talented then what's going on. 

Well then let's put it this way.  I do believe we have much undeveloped talent. We ave too many kids who were ranked in the top 25 to 60 out of HS, to not have much talent. Perhaps one or even two of them may not develope but the odds are that most will.  My own opinion is that if the experts are picking us not to even make the tourney with the talent they have then they have little faith in Lavns ability to run a program. 

In terms of talent, I saw Jordan on several occasions in HS games as I saw Tyler Ennis.  In high school. Jordan seemed the far superior in talent and athleticism. If you were to see both play now, you would think otherwise.  Ennis is under control, plays a great floor game and scores when needed.  Jordan looks uncomfortable, not in the flow and his defense needs much work, where Ennis holds his own with anyone.  Jordan came out the more highly rated but Ennis is way more advanced at this stage of the game.  The difference, COACHING.

Fran Mccaffrey

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

Quote from: Moose on November 30, 2013, 10:52:46 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

His sample size goes back much further. 3 teams to the tourny. Will make it a fourth this year. He's proven himself as a coach.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

Quote from: Moose on November 30, 2013, 10:52:46 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

Quote from: Moose on November 30, 2013, 10:52:46 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

Top 25. St Johns is still getting smacked around by the Penn States the college world after the most recent hire

Quote from: Marco Baldi on December 01, 2013, 08:30:10 AM

Quote from: Moose on November 30, 2013, 10:52:46 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

Quote from: Moose on November 30, 2013, 10:52:46 PM

Quote from: Marco Baldi on November 30, 2013, 10:42:10 PM

Fran Mccaffrey

Yeah
Because 11-20, 18-17(NIT), 25-13(NIT) and 6-0 this year is a huge sample size.

Top 25. St Johns is still getting smacked around by the Penn States the college world after the most recent hire

Penn state will be one of the better teams in the Big Ten this year.  They aren't like the PSU of years past.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 29, 2013, 09:44:12 PM

Well then let's put it this way.  I do believe we have much undeveloped talent. We ave too many kids who were ranked in the top 25 to 60 out of HS, to not have much talent. Perhaps one or even two of them may not develope but the odds are that most will.  My own opinion is that if the experts are picking us not to even make the tourney with the talent they have then they have little faith in Lavns ability to run a program. 

In terms of talent, I saw Jordan on several occasions in HS games as I saw Tyler Ennis.  In high school. Jordan seemed the far superior in talent and athleticism. If you were to see both play now, you would think otherwise.  Ennis is under control, plays a great floor game and scores when needed.  Jordan looks uncomfortable, not in the flow and his defense needs much work, where Ennis holds his own with anyone.  Jordan came out the more highly rated but Ennis is way more advanced at this stage of the game.  The difference, COACHING.

Weird. You started this thread - perhaps the stupidest thread in the history of Saint John's forums BTW, a Herculean feat - with the proposition that it was Lavin's superior coaching skills that wrung from the talented players recruited by Norm Roberts results what Norm could not because Norm, although a keen judge of talent, was poor at strategy and player development. From that you argued that the players recruited by Lavin were perhaps not as talented as they seemed because they were not achieving the same results as Norm's players, despite having the benefit of Lavin's superior coaching.

Flash forward 4 pages. Here you are talking about what a great talent Rysheed Jordan is - presumably Lavin's keen eye noticed that - and blaming Jordan's lack of achievement on Lavin's poor strategy and player development. That's exactly the opposite of what you said earlier and contradicts everything you've been saying for the past week. Congrarulations, you seem to have out-stupided yourself.
[/quote

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2013, 08:24:40 AM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 29, 2013, 09:44:12 PM

Well then let's put it this way.  I do believe we have much undeveloped talent. We ave too many kids who were ranked in the top 25 to 60 out of HS, to not have much talent. Perhaps one or even two of them may not develope but the odds are that most will.  My own opinion is that if the experts are picking us not to even make the tourney with the talent they have then they have little faith in Lavns ability to run a program. 

In terms of talent, I saw Jordan on several occasions in HS games as I saw Tyler Ennis.  In high school. Jordan seemed the far superior in talent and athleticism. If you were to see both play now, you would think otherwise.  Ennis is under control, plays a great floor game and scores when needed.  Jordan looks uncomfortable, not in the flow and his defense needs much work, where Ennis holds his own with anyone.  Jordan came out the more highly rated but Ennis is way more advanced at this stage of the game.  The difference, COACHING.

Weird. You started this thread - perhaps the stupidest thread in the history of Saint John's forums BTW, a Herculean feat - with the proposition that it was Lavin's superior coaching skills that wrung from the talented players recruited by Norm Roberts results what Norm could not because Norm, although a keen judge of talent, was poor at strategy and player development. From that you argued that the players recruited by Lavin were perhaps not as talented as they seemed because they were not achieving the same results as Norm's players, despite having the benefit of Lavin's superior coaching.

Flash forward 4 pages. Here you are talking about what a great talent Rysheed Jordan is - presumably Lavin's keen eye noticed that - and blaming Jordan's lack of achievement on Lavin's poor strategy and player development. That's exactly the opposite of what you said earlier and contradicts everything you've been saying for the past week. Congrarulations, you seem to have out-stupided yourself.

First of all, way to make crap up.  I never stated that Lavin made a Herculean effort with Norms players in his first year.  If you bothered to read, and understood ( which is a difficult concept for yourself) the nature of my posts you would see that I was asking for other posters opinions on this  issue, not realy sure which way to view it?  I did not state one way or another what I thought but gave examples of Jordan's past success, and Lavins success vs. recent not being successful. I am in a quandary about this myself.  We're it not for another poster that insisted I state examples as to what I believe, I prob would not even have brought up the Jordan example.  Your nasty response to my post merely serves to show that you couldn't understand what my posts were all about. So that brings up an even scarier thought re. posting on this site.  That being that there are other posters here who actually believe  that you have a brain. Good job.

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2013, 08:24:40 AM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 29, 2013, 09:44:12 PM

Well then let's put it this way.  I do believe we have much undeveloped talent. We ave too many kids who were ranked in the top 25 to 60 out of HS, to not have much talent. Perhaps one or even two of them may not develope but the odds are that most will.  My own opinion is that if the experts are picking us not to even make the tourney with the talent they have then they have little faith in Lavns ability to run a program. 

In terms of talent, I saw Jordan on several occasions in HS games as I saw Tyler Ennis.  In high school. Jordan seemed the far superior in talent and athleticism. If you were to see both play now, you would think otherwise.  Ennis is under control, plays a great floor game and scores when needed.  Jordan looks uncomfortable, not in the flow and his defense needs much work, where Ennis holds his own with anyone.  Jordan came out the more highly rated but Ennis is way more advanced at this stage of the game.  The difference, COACHING.

Weird. You started this thread - perhaps the stupidest thread in the history of Saint John's forums BTW, a Herculean feat - with the proposition that it was Lavin's superior coaching skills that wrung from the talented players recruited by Norm Roberts results what Norm could not because Norm, although a keen judge of talent, was poor at strategy and player development. From that you argued that the players recruited by Lavin were perhaps not as talented as they seemed because they were not achieving the same results as Norm's players, despite having the benefit of Lavin's superior coaching.

Flash forward 4 pages. Here you are talking about what a great talent Rysheed Jordan is - presumably Lavin's keen eye noticed that - and blaming Jordan's lack of achievement on Lavin's poor strategy and player development. That's exactly the opposite of what you said earlier and contradicts everything you've been saying for the past week. Congrarulations, you seem to have out-stupided yourself.
[/quote

Quote from: Foad on November 30, 2013, 08:24:40 AM

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 29, 2013, 09:44:12 PM

Well then let's put it this way.  I do believe we have much undeveloped talent. We ave too many kids who were ranked in the top 25 to 60 out of HS, to not have much talent. Perhaps one or even two of them may not develope but the odds are that most will.  My own opinion is that if the experts are picking us not to even make the tourney with the talent they have then they have little faith in Lavns ability to run a program. 

In terms of talent, I saw Jordan on several occasions in HS games as I saw Tyler Ennis.  In high school. Jordan seemed the far superior in talent and athleticism. If you were to see both play now, you would think otherwise.  Ennis is under control, plays a great floor game and scores when needed.  Jordan looks uncomfortable, not in the flow and his defense needs much work, where Ennis holds his own with anyone.  Jordan came out the more highly rated but Ennis is way more advanced at this stage of the game.  The difference, COACHING.

Weird. You started this thread - perhaps the stupidest thread in the history of Saint John's forums BTW, a Herculean feat - with the proposition that it was Lavin's superior coaching skills that wrung from the talented players recruited by Norm Roberts results what Norm could not because Norm, although a keen judge of talent, was poor at strategy and player development. From that you argued that the players recruited by Lavin were perhaps not as talented as they seemed because they were not achieving the same results as Norm's players, despite having the benefit of Lavin's superior coaching.

Flash forward 4 pages. Here you are talking about what a great talent Rysheed Jordan is - presumably Lavin's keen eye noticed that - and blaming Jordan's lack of achievement on Lavin's poor strategy and player development. That's exactly the opposite of what you said earlier and contradicts everything you've been saying for the past week. Congrarulations, you seem to have out-stupided yourself.

First of all, way to make crap up.  I never stated that Lavin made a Herculean effort with Norms players in his first year.  If you bothered to read, and understood ( which is a difficult concept for yourself) the nature of my posts you would see that I was asking for other posters opinions on this  issue, not realy sure which way to view it?  I did not state one way or another what I thought but gave examples of Jordan's past success, and Lavins success vs. recent not being successful. I am in a quandary about this myself.  We're it not for another poster that insisted I state examples as to what I believe, I prob would not even have brought up the Jordan example.  Your nasty response to my post merely serves to show that you couldn't understand what my posts were all about. So that brings up an even scarier thought re. posting on this site.  That being that there are other posters here who actually believe  that you have a brain. Good job.

Well then let's put it this way.  I do believe we have much undeveloped talent. We ave too many kids who were ranked in the top 25 to 60 out of HS, to not have much talent. Perhaps one or even two of them may not develope but the odds are that most will.  My own opinion is that if the experts are picking us not to even make the tourney with the talent they have then they have little faith in Lavns ability to run a program. 

In terms of talent, I saw Jordan on several occasions in HS games as I saw Tyler Ennis.  In high school. Jordan seemed the far superior in talent and athleticism. If you were to see both play now, you would think otherwise.  Ennis is under control, plays a great floor game and scores when needed.  Jordan looks uncomfortable, not in the flow and his defense needs much work, where Ennis holds his own with anyone.  Jordan came out the more highly rated but Ennis is way more advanced at this stage of the game.  The difference, COACHING.

Quote from: Linda Mirabella on November 29, 2013, 09:44:12 PM

Well then let's put it this way.  I do believe we have much undeveloped talent. We ave too many kids who were ranked in the top 25 to 60 out of HS, to not have much talent. Perhaps one or even two of them may not develope but the odds are that most will.  My own opinion is that if the experts are picking us not to even make the tourney with the talent they have then they have little faith in Lavns ability to run a program. 

In terms of talent, I saw Jordan on several occasions in HS games as I saw Tyler Ennis.  In high school. Jordan seemed the far superior in talent and athleticism. If you were to see both play now, you would think otherwise.  Ennis is under control, plays a great floor game and scores when needed.  Jordan looks uncomfortable, not in the flow and his defense needs much work, where Ennis holds his own with anyone.  Jordan came out the more highly rated but Ennis is way more advanced at this stage of the game.  The difference, COACHING.

Ennis isn't Swiss Cheese, he is a top 20 rated PG who plays exclusively in a 2-3 zone. Jordan is a far more superior defender. Ennis also started off pretty poorly, he and Jordan are in two different situations. While Ennis can afford to make bad decisions after bad decision with no consequences because there is no other option behind Ennis, Jordan doesn't have that luxury. I don't believe 6 games into their college career is a large enough sample size to state that Ennis has developed quicker due to better coaching, although I don't believe Lavin is a better coach than Jim Boeheim. Let's see who is the better player by their junior year.