What do we need to do to start better?

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Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2013, 12:31:21 PM »
If we pressed for a full game you can kiss goodbye Harrison's 30mpg, and Sampson and Obekpa would need a lot more rest too.   And then you're playing more of the game with your best players on the bench.

Basketball is not a track meet.  Even the teams that play at the fastest tempos still end up scoring most of their points in the half court.   Do you think if we press for 40 minutes all of a sudden we'll get 30 steals and score 50+ points off breakaway dunks?   
Not going to happen.   And in the process we'll pickup a ton of fouls and give up probably just as many open 3's or layups because we're stretched so far.

The press is a weapon, and it certainly looks like one Lavin should use more often; but we'll still only go as far as our half-court offense and defense take us.   
You can slice it a lot of different ways, but at the end of the day almost every basketball team ends up playing 80% of possessions in the halfcourt.   
Press or not, that's what needs to improve.

  Stop penetration when we're on defense, and get some penetration on the other end so we're not settling for long 2's.   
That cannot be repeated enough.   

I think they definitely need to start out in it though.  We can't afford to sit around and not play for the first 5-10 minutes in the game.
I agree.  A jumpstart will be the next step deployed by the staff.

I know the talk has gone back and forth about whether or not this year's team will underperform its generally acknowledged talent level, but I think taking a step back to reflect on the fits and stops of this year's squad is wise.

We mostly know some weaknesses (3 pt. shooting, perimeter D) and strengths (transition play, D in the block) of the guys at this point, but another point not fully considered as we go on is that Coach Whitesell is still getting acclimated to this team as well.  Sure, he watched film like mad, keenly observed all practices, and walked through player/team breakdowns with coach and the staff.  But at the end of the day, you have to mostly rely upon in game observations.  I believe Coach Whitesell's contributions will be felt more as the season progresses.  Good coaching staffs will adjust style of play to their team's strengths, and the board knows this full well. 

Rumble in the Garden had this Majerus quote in their August piece on oach Whitesell: "He's the top assistant coach, that's definitive," Majerus said after appointing him to the second seat in the Billikens' program. "He's the offensive coordinator, the defensive coordinator, the special team guy, the sideline outs. Not to detract from (Jim) Crews or Tanner (Bronson), Jim has got total responsibility for every aspect of the program. Others have aspects for specific parts."

Let the coaching STAFF (Coach Lavin is not on an island) do their thing, and let's see if they can successfully play on the strengths of this squad.  One thing I've noticed in limited viewing - the guys still play very , very hard after the rough starts - there's definitely no quit in this team.  That's an intangible I really like about any team - tenacity.  I want these guys to keep coming in waves at their opponent often. 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 12:42:02 PM by bball purist »

desco80

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Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2013, 12:34:59 PM »
If we pressed for a full game you can kiss goodbye Harrison's 30mpg, and Sampson and Obekpa would need a lot more rest too.   And then you're playing more of the game with your best players on the bench.

Basketball is not a track meet.  Even the teams that play at the fastest tempos still end up scoring most of their points in the half court.   Do you think if we press for 40 minutes all of a sudden we'll get 30 steals and score 50+ points off breakaway dunks?   
Not going to happen.   And in the process we'll pickup a ton of fouls and give up probably just as many open 3's or layups because we're stretched so far.

The press is a weapon, and it certainly looks like one Lavin should use more often; but we'll still only go as far as our half-court offense and defense take us.   
You can slice it a lot of different ways, but at the end of the day almost every basketball team ends up playing 80% of possessions in the halfcourt.   
Press or not, that's what needs to improve.

  Stop penetration when we're on defense, and get some penetration on the other end so we're not settling for long 2's.   
That cannot be repeated enough.   

I think they definitely need to start out in it though.  We can't afford to sit around and not play for the first 5-10 minutes in the game.

I don't disagree Mase.  I just think we shouldn't expect to see it for 40minutes.  In my view that's not realistic or ideal.

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2013, 12:42:00 PM »
If we pressed for a full game you can kiss goodbye Harrison's 30mpg, and Sampson and Obekpa would need a lot more rest too.   And then you're playing more of the game with your best players on the bench.

Basketball is not a track meet.  Even the teams that play at the fastest tempos still end up scoring most of their points in the half court.   Do you think if we press for 40 minutes all of a sudden we'll get 30 steals and score 50+ points off breakaway dunks?   
Not going to happen.   And in the process we'll pickup a ton of fouls and give up probably just as many open 3's or layups because we're stretched so far.

The press is a weapon, and it certainly looks like one Lavin should use more often; but we'll still only go as far as our half-court offense and defense take us.   
You can slice it a lot of different ways, but at the end of the day almost every basketball team ends up playing 80% of possessions in the halfcourt.   
Press or not, that's what needs to improve.

  Stop penetration when we're on defense, and get some penetration on the other end so we're not settling for long 2's.   
That cannot be repeated enough.   

Wisdom!

tnice

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Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2013, 12:44:41 PM »
If we pressed for a full game you can kiss goodbye Harrison's 30mpg, and Sampson and Obekpa would need a lot more rest too.   And then you're playing more of the game with your best players on the bench.

Basketball is not a track meet.  Even the teams that play at the fastest tempos still end up scoring most of their points in the half court.   Do you think if we press for 40 minutes all of a sudden we'll get 30 steals and score 50+ points off breakaway dunks?   
Not going to happen.   And in the process we'll pickup a ton of fouls and give up probably just as many open 3's or layups because we're stretched so far.

The press is a weapon, and it certainly looks like one Lavin should use more often; but we'll still only go as far as our half-court offense and defense take us.   
You can slice it a lot of different ways, but at the end of the day almost every basketball team ends up playing 80% of possessions in the halfcourt.   
Press or not, that's what needs to improve.

  Stop penetration when we're on defense, and get some penetration on the other end so we're not settling for long 2's.   
That cannot be repeated enough.   

Great minds think alike! Right on the same page w you Desco.

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2013, 12:58:03 PM »

One thing I've noticed in limited viewing - the guys still play very , very hard after the rough starts - there's definitely no quit in this team.  That's an intangible I really like about any team - tenacity.  I want these guys to keep coming in waves at their opponent often. 

Thank you for saying that.  I keep hearing about how lazy guys are on defense.  Not getting out on shooters is more a product of slow recognition and reaction, rather than laziness.  I've also notice that guys are sometimes unsure whether they should switch on the pick or fight through it.  I guess it depends on whether they are playing man or the matchup zone.  But the players need to know what to do in those situations.

One reason I like the matchup zone is because it uses man principles but you don't end up with your big defending the perimeter.  There's nothing I hate more than seeing Obekpa guarding someone at the three point line.

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2013, 01:06:37 PM »

One thing I've noticed in limited viewing - the guys still play very , very hard after the rough starts - there's definitely no quit in this team.  That's an intangible I really like about any team - tenacity.  I want these guys to keep coming in waves at their opponent often. 

Thank you for saying that.  I keep hearing about how lazy guys are on defense.  Not getting out on shooters is more a product of slow recognition and reaction, rather than laziness.  I've also notice that guys are sometimes unsure whether they should switch on the pick or fight through it.  I guess it depends on whether they are playing man or the matchup zone.  But the players need to know what to do in those situations.

One reason I like the matchup zone is because it uses man principles but you don't end up with your big defending the perimeter.  There's nothing I hate more than seeing Obekpa guarding someone at the three point line.
Correct.  The matchup lets Obekpa stay at home and not be negated following up the high screens, etc.  He's such a threat to change shots in close, high screens would increase greatly if we were in man to man most often.  Yes, 6 blocks a game, but how many shots are changed and missed?  Opponent FG% will reflect it come end of season.

This team's length makes the matchup D all the more appealing.  As the guys get it down as the season progresses, we will see the results.  Boeheim didn't implement it to its refined version overnight, so I'll wait and see come Beast play.  Until the matchup is deployed by a lot more teams, it will pose a bona fide threat to perimeter based offenses.  As you said, once recognition improves, the over-reactions will decrease, and the guys won't be going for the ball fake because they will not need to if already in proper position.  Execution is another thing altogether - I hope they are practicing hard every day.



« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 01:07:54 PM by bball purist »

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2013, 01:14:35 PM »
Shots are changed and missed.  Some shots are not attempted at all.  We are the only fanbase (actually we may not be) that would complain about having the best shot blocker in the country.

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2013, 01:19:17 PM »
If we pressed for a full game you can kiss goodbye Harrison's 30mpg, and Sampson and Obekpa would need a lot more rest too.   And then you're playing more of the game with your best players on the bench.

Basketball is not a track meet.  Even the teams that play at the fastest tempos still end up scoring most of their points in the half court.   Do you think if we press for 40 minutes all of a sudden we'll get 30 steals and score 50+ points off breakaway dunks?   
Not going to happen.   And in the process we'll pickup a ton of fouls and give up probably just as many open 3's or layups because we're stretched so far.

The press is a weapon, and it certainly looks like one Lavin should use more often; but we'll still only go as far as our half-court offense and defense take us.   
You can slice it a lot of different ways, but at the end of the day almost every basketball team ends up playing 80% of possessions in the halfcourt.   
Press or not, that's what needs to improve.

  Stop penetration when we're on defense, and get some penetration on the other end so we're not settling for long 2's.   
That cannot be repeated enough.   
Desco, I agree that 40 min per game pressing is not something easily done - even the '94 Arkansas squad ran half court sets for down low play with Williamson and the bigs.

However, this squad could still press off and on throughout a game, and D'Lo, JaKarr and Obekpa should still be able to log 28-31 Min/Game.  Duke's 2010 natty team had Scheyer, Singler and Nolan Smith all logging 36 Min/gm (even with Smith getting knocked out of a game by the Terps' David Neal's crushing backcourt screen ;)  Duke pressures the ball in the backcourt and perimeter quite often, and their Offensive sets require a lot of movement.  If that's the problem, then the guys are not conditioned enough for high intensity, up tempo, play.  I don't think that, but that is what you seem to think. I'm not buying it, but that's not to say I want "40 minutes of hell" ball.

Dave Neal HARD Screen on Nolan Smith
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 01:20:03 PM by bball purist »

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2013, 01:22:57 PM »
Shots are changed and missed.  Some shots are not attempted at all.  We are the only fanbase (actually we may not be) that would complain about having the best shot blocker in the country.
Exactly - we have a serious weapon down low that needs to be maximized.  Not many cats have that kind of timing and technique to block the ball to teammates like CO does.  Enjoy watching it.  as the team plays together better, he will be even more effective.

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2013, 01:48:57 PM »
  I'm baffled by Lavin not using pressure D in the backcourt as much as possible.. We have a deep team, capable of going 8-9 deep if necessary in most games..The thing is Dlo is not suited for a lock down D effort in the back court.  But, I think spelling him and Greene for each other could work.

I hate Dlo and Greene in the game together handling the ball.

L'ville always has deep teams and Pitino presses opportunistically as much as possible.. It's a terrific weapon to turn the other guys over for easy hoops.And, we have the shot blocker to play goalie, if someone is beat .

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2013, 02:06:41 PM »
  I'm baffled by Lavin not using pressure D in the backcourt as much as possible.. We have a deep team, capable of going 8-9 deep if necessary in most games..The thing is Dlo is not suited for a lock down D effort in the back court.  But, I think spelling him and Greene for each other could work.

I hate Dlo and Greene in the game together handling the ball.

L'ville always has deep teams and Pitino presses opportunistically as much as possible.. It's a terrific weapon to turn the other guys over for easy hoops.And, we have the shot blocker to play goalie, if someone is beat .
Louisville's '12-'13 team - Siva, Smith, Dieng - 30+ min/gm; Behanan (26) Hancock (22) and Blackshear (20);Harrel/Ware (16 each) Van Treese (11) - there's 9 players.  Got to have 6-9 at 15-20+ if team is deep. 

With Hooper (#9 at 10min/gm) Branch (13.3) and Rysheed (16 min/gm), and our #6 man Primola (might as well have 5 diff nicknames by now - my f-in-law did the woodworking at Primola back in the day :)) at 20 min/gm, I predict Branch, Rysheed and OS's minutes to go up a bit with an uptick in uptempo play as well.  We need more from these 4 moving forward, and we will get it.

Those of you that tolerate my quirky sense of humor know I like The Wire (Clay Davis ref below), follow Paul VI bball in Fairfax VA, so excuse the names, just havin' some fun

JKS              30.6 min/gm   
D`Alo        30.3
PGIV           27.0
SirD            25.1
Oblockpa 24.7
Primola        20.3
Sheeeeed  15.8
JamB         13.3
MotttheHooper 12.0
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 02:07:24 PM by bball purist »

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2013, 06:18:01 PM »
Getting back to the original question...the issue of a better start. Nothing wrong with full court press for the opening four minutes.


MCNPA

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Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2013, 06:29:21 PM »
Sign a PG with a brain

We got the #3 pg coming out of HS this past year.  Look him up.
And branch was #2 in his class I think

Rankings?  Who cares?  Branch was ranked higher than Shane Larkin, Trey Burke, Nadir Tharpe etc.

How amazing did Nadiir Tharpe look his freshman year?  Sophomore year?  Lavin bringing Jordan along a bit more slowly.  We do have guys like Branch who can play the position effectively.   Jordan will develop into a very good one.  Guaranteed.  It is certainly a big adjustment moving to D1 starting Pg role.  Give him time. 

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2013, 06:40:08 PM »
Sign a PG with a brain

We got the #3 pg coming out of HS this past year.  Look him up.
And branch was #2 in his class I think

Rankings?  Who cares?  Branch was ranked higher than Shane Larkin, Trey Burke, Nadir Tharpe etc.

How amazing did Nadiir Tharpe look his freshman year?  Sophomore year?  Lavin bringing Jordan along a bit more slowly.  We do have guys like Branch who can play the position effectively.   Jordan will develop into a very good one.  Guaranteed.  It is certainly a big adjustment moving to D1 starting Pg role.  Give him time. 

Exactly.  SJU has very good depth at the guard position without Jordan.  They have the luxury of bringing him along slowly.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 06:42:00 PM by fordham96 »

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2013, 07:32:37 PM »
Sign a PG with a brain

We got the #3 pg coming out of HS this past year.  Look him up.
And branch was #2 in his class I think

Rankings?  Who cares?  Branch was ranked higher than Shane Larkin, Trey Burke, Nadir Tharpe etc.

How amazing did Nadiir Tharpe look his freshman year?  Sophomore year?  Lavin bringing Jordan along a bit more slowly.  We do have guys like Branch who can play the position effectively.   Jordan will develop into a very good one.  Guaranteed.  It is certainly a big adjustment moving to D1 starting Pg role.  Give him time. 

Exactly.  SJU has very good depth at the guard position without Jordan.  They have the luxury of bringing him along slowly.

So you think he will be back? What did Lavin say about that?

boo3

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Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2013, 07:47:49 PM »
Sign a PG with a brain

We got the #3 pg coming out of HS this past year.  Look him up.
And branch was #2 in his class I think

Rankings?  Who cares?  Branch was ranked higher than Shane Larkin, Trey Burke, Nadir Tharpe etc.

How amazing did Nadiir Tharpe look his freshman year?  Sophomore year?  Lavin bringing Jordan along a bit more slowly.  We do have guys like Branch who can play the position effectively.   Jordan will develop into a very good one.  Guaranteed.  It is certainly a big adjustment moving to D1 starting Pg role.  Give him time. 

Exactly.  SJU has very good depth at the guard position without Jordan.  They have the luxury of bringing him along slowly.

So you think he will be back? What did Lavin say about that?

 I'd say 50/50... this has hardship waiver to temple written all over it if things continue along this path.   I hope not.

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2013, 07:49:26 PM »
Sign a PG with a brain

We got the #3 pg coming out of HS this past year.  Look him up.
And branch was #2 in his class I think

Rankings?  Who cares?  Branch was ranked higher than Shane Larkin, Trey Burke, Nadir Tharpe etc.

How amazing did Nadiir Tharpe look his freshman year?  Sophomore year?  Lavin bringing Jordan along a bit more slowly.  We do have guys like Branch who can play the position effectively.   Jordan will develop into a very good one.  Guaranteed.  It is certainly a big adjustment moving to D1 starting Pg role.  Give him time. 

Exactly.  SJU has very good depth at the guard position without Jordan.  They have the luxury of bringing him along slowly.

So you think he will be back? What did Lavin say about that?

Say about what?

Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2013, 07:50:31 PM »
Sign a PG with a brain

We got the #3 pg coming out of HS this past year.  Look him up.
And branch was #2 in his class I think

Rankings?  Who cares?  Branch was ranked higher than Shane Larkin, Trey Burke, Nadir Tharpe etc.

How amazing did Nadiir Tharpe look his freshman year?  Sophomore year?  Lavin bringing Jordan along a bit more slowly.  We do have guys like Branch who can play the position effectively.   Jordan will develop into a very good one.  Guaranteed.  It is certainly a big adjustment moving to D1 starting Pg role.  Give him time. 

Exactly.  SJU has very good depth at the guard position without Jordan.  They have the luxury of bringing him along slowly.

So you think he will be back? What did Lavin say about that?

Say about what?

1  and done

boo3

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Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2013, 07:53:07 PM »
Jordan 1 and done?  please... He would have to have a tremendous rest of the season for that to be the case.

desco80

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Re: What do we need to do to start better?
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2013, 07:54:53 PM »
Sign a PG with a brain

We got the #3 pg coming out of HS this past year.  Look him up.
And branch was #2 in his class I think

Rankings?  Who cares?  Branch was ranked higher than Shane Larkin, Trey Burke, Nadir Tharpe etc.

How amazing did Nadiir Tharpe look his freshman year?  Sophomore year?  Lavin bringing Jordan along a bit more slowly.  We do have guys like Branch who can play the position effectively.   Jordan will develop into a very good one.  Guaranteed.  It is certainly a big adjustment moving to D1 starting Pg role.  Give him time. 

Exactly.  SJU has very good depth at the guard position without Jordan.  They have the luxury of bringing him along slowly.

So you think he will be back? What did Lavin say about that?

Say about what?

1  and done

No shot.   Temple via transfer? Eh, we'll find out in the next 3 weeks  as the semester ends. But it's possible.  But I'm not at  all worried about Jordan going pro.   
But I think the whole team minus GG, Sanchez and Marco are back.