Playing Up-Tempo Ball

Quote from: boo3 on December 03, 2013, 03:15:12 PM

Disagree...  Jordan, Sampson, Pointer, Greene, all guys that can thrive in a running system..  Fast, athletic and can finish at the rim..

Plus we have Sanchez and Obekpa to block shots which can often ignite the break..

IMO- our personel perfect to run.   Not to mention Branch, who may be the best penetrator of the bunch.

Every "running" team in history utilizes the three.
Common misnomer is that running team's dunk and get layups. Usually the jumper is the shot that is open
This team would not be a good rumming team.

The only times we've looked good this year is when we were a running team. If were not a running team then what are we?

Quote from: we are sju on December 03, 2013, 03:21:55 PM

Quote from: boo3 on December 03, 2013, 03:15:12 PM

Disagree...  Jordan, Sampson, Pointer, Greene, all guys that can thrive in a running system..  Fast, athletic and can finish at the rim..

Plus we have Sanchez and Obekpa to block shots which can often ignite the break..

IMO- our personel perfect to run.   Not to mention Branch, who may be the best penetrator of the bunch.

Every "running" team in history utilizes the three.
Common misnomer is that running team's dunk and get layups. Usually the jumper is the shot that is open
This team would not be a good rumming team.

The only times we've looked good this year is when we were a running team. If were not a running team then what are we?

Don't necessarily need to run when applying steady pressure often in a game, but create turnovers off the pressure.  The O can go into a half court set combined with some transition baskets.

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on December 03, 2013, 08:55:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on December 03, 2013, 03:21:55 PM

Quote from: boo3 on December 03, 2013, 03:15:12 PM

Disagree...  Jordan, Sampson, Pointer, Greene, all guys that can thrive in a running system..  Fast, athletic and can finish at the rim..

Plus we have Sanchez and Obekpa to block shots which can often ignite the break..

IMO- our personel perfect to run.   Not to mention Branch, who may be the best penetrator of the bunch.

Every "running" team in history utilizes the three.
Common misnomer is that running team's dunk and get layups. Usually the jumper is the shot that is open
This team would not be a good rumming team.

The only times we've looked good this year is when we were a running team. If were not a running team then what are we?

Don't necessarily need to run when applying steady pressure often in a game, but create turnovers off the pressure.  The O can go into a half court set combined with some transition baskets.

If your pressing steadily then I consider it a running game.

Quote from: bball purist on December 03, 2013, 09:00:11 PM

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on December 03, 2013, 08:55:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on December 03, 2013, 03:21:55 PM

Quote from: boo3 on December 03, 2013, 03:15:12 PM

Disagree...  Jordan, Sampson, Pointer, Greene, all guys that can thrive in a running system..  Fast, athletic and can finish at the rim..

Plus we have Sanchez and Obekpa to block shots which can often ignite the break..

IMO- our personel perfect to run.   Not to mention Branch, who may be the best penetrator of the bunch.

Every "running" team in history utilizes the three.
Common misnomer is that running team's dunk and get layups. Usually the jumper is the shot that is open
This team would not be a good rumming team.

The only times we've looked good this year is when we were a running team. If were not a running team then what are we?

Don't necessarily need to run when applying steady pressure often in a game, but create turnovers off the pressure.  The O can go into a half court set combined with some transition baskets.

If your pressing steadily then I consider it a running game.

I'm being devil's advocate here, but there are many types of presses.  The guys could do a half court press, trap the corners in half court, etc, to keep the intensity level up while not going as extreme as full court pressure.  I like when teams go in and out of half court traps, occasionally press full court after some baskets, and generally keep the opponent off kilter here and there and make them play a bit frenetic.  A disciplined team will handle a lot of this in certain games, that is why some of us posted that we still need to be able to effectively run our half court sets, which has not gone smoothly thus far. 

So I'm not entirely in disagreement with you.  You might see some of what I'm saying in a majority of the games and I will not be surprised.  Coach Whitesell is a tactician, and will continue tweaking things with the staff.  I said it in an earlier post - I think some are forgetting that he's only been on board since August!  Watch what he's going to do with the guys by end of season.  I'm optimistic because of how hard these guys work - we will be proud of the progress by end of conference play.

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on December 03, 2013, 09:02:52 PM

Quote from: bball purist on December 03, 2013, 09:00:11 PM

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on December 03, 2013, 08:55:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on December 03, 2013, 03:21:55 PM

Quote from: boo3 on December 03, 2013, 03:15:12 PM

Disagree...  Jordan, Sampson, Pointer, Greene, all guys that can thrive in a running system..  Fast, athletic and can finish at the rim..

Plus we have Sanchez and Obekpa to block shots which can often ignite the break..

IMO- our personel perfect to run.   Not to mention Branch, who may be the best penetrator of the bunch.

Every "running" team in history utilizes the three.
Common misnomer is that running team's dunk and get layups. Usually the jumper is the shot that is open
This team would not be a good rumming team.

The only times we've looked good this year is when we were a running team. If were not a running team then what are we?

Don't necessarily need to run when applying steady pressure often in a game, but create turnovers off the pressure.  The O can go into a half court set combined with some transition baskets.

If your pressing steadily then I consider it a running game.

I'm being devil's advocate here, but there are many types of presses.  The guys could do a half court press, trap the corners in half court, etc, to keep the intensity level up while not going as extreme as full court pressure.  I like when teams go in and out of half court traps, occasionally press full court after some baskets, and generally keep the opponent off kilter here and there and make them play a bit frenetic.  A disciplined team will handle a lot of this in certain games, that is why some of us posted that we still need to be able to effectively run our half court sets, which has not gone smoothly thus far. 

So I'm not entirely in disagreement with you.  You might see some of what I'm saying in a majority of the games and I will not be surprised.  Coach Whitesell is a tactician, and will continue tweaking things with the staff.  I said it in an earlier post - I think some are forgetting that he's only been on board since August!  Watch what he's going to do with the guys by end of season.  I'm optimistic because of how hard these guys work - we will be proud of the progress by end of conference play.

No worries, I don't disagree with anything you said.

Quote from: bball purist on December 03, 2013, 09:17:39 PM

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on December 03, 2013, 09:02:52 PM

Quote from: bball purist on December 03, 2013, 09:00:11 PM

Quote from: Amaseinyourface2 on December 03, 2013, 08:55:39 PM

Quote from: we are sju on December 03, 2013, 03:21:55 PM

Quote from: boo3 on December 03, 2013, 03:15:12 PM

Disagree...  Jordan, Sampson, Pointer, Greene, all guys that can thrive in a running system..  Fast, athletic and can finish at the rim..

Plus we have Sanchez and Obekpa to block shots which can often ignite the break..

IMO- our personel perfect to run.   Not to mention Branch, who may be the best penetrator of the bunch.

Every "running" team in history utilizes the three.
Common misnomer is that running team's dunk and get layups. Usually the jumper is the shot that is open
This team would not be a good rumming team.

The only times we've looked good this year is when we were a running team. If were not a running team then what are we?

Don't necessarily need to run when applying steady pressure often in a game, but create turnovers off the pressure.  The O can go into a half court set combined with some transition baskets.

If your pressing steadily then I consider it a running game.

I'm being devil's advocate here, but there are many types of presses.  The guys could do a half court press, trap the corners in half court, etc, to keep the intensity level up while not going as extreme as full court pressure.  I like when teams go in and out of half court traps, occasionally press full court after some baskets, and generally keep the opponent off kilter here and there and make them play a bit frenetic.  A disciplined team will handle a lot of this in certain games, that is why some of us posted that we still need to be able to effectively run our half court sets, which has not gone smoothly thus far. 

So I'm not entirely in disagreement with you.  You might see some of what I'm saying in a majority of the games and I will not be surprised.  Coach Whitesell is a tactician, and will continue tweaking things with the staff.  I said it in an earlier post - I think some are forgetting that he's only been on board since August!  Watch what he's going to do with the guys by end of season.  I'm optimistic because of how hard these guys work - we will be proud of the progress by end of conference play.

No worries, I don't disagree with anything you said.

and what you said is true - you eventually wind up running if pressing.  I have my doubts that we're able to do it for a full game - turnovers would concern me frankly.

So many coaches and teams around the country say they want to "play up tempo, run, press, and PLAY FAST".  Very few teams truly PLAY FAST.  Why?? Coaches often have to give up control in order to do so, and coaches are usually control freaks.

Say and joke all you want about Iona, but they ACTUALLY play fast.  Playing fast means getting out into the open court AND playing fast in your halfcourt offense.  It means playing a highly increased possessions basketball game.

I think it was Rick Pitino that said that "basketball is over-coached and under-taught."  This team truly needs to play fast.  While we have won the "fast break points" facet against most if not all of our opponents thus far, we haven't truly played fast until that stretch against Georgia Tech. 

So many coaches and teams around the country say they want to "play up tempo, run, press, and PLAY FAST".  Very few teams truly PLAY FAST.  Why?? Coaches often have to give up control in order to do so, and coaches are usually control freaks.

Say and joke all you want about Iona, but they ACTUALLY play fast.  Playing fast means getting out into the open court AND playing fast in your halfcourt offense.  It means playing a highly increased possessions basketball game.

I think it was Rick Pitino that said that "basketball is over-coached and under-taught."  This team truly needs to play fast.  While we have won the "fast break points" facet against most if not all of our opponents thus far, we haven't truly played fast until that stretch against Georgia Tech. 

I think a comparison of some stats we've analyzed here more than a few times are in order.  They won't surprise us too much in light of the game occurrences thus far.

All National Ranks

                         Poss. per 40 Min.   Pts/Poss.   Effective FG% (eFG%)   Turnover %    Off. Reb %    FT Rate
St. John's                249                          209                     266                              300                   209              204
Iona                          140                           96                        81                                279                    272              302
Cuse                         331                            30                       159                               304                     12                 130

These stats are more acknowledged indicators for
Scoring, Shooting, Ball Handling, Rebounding, Getting to the Line...

We don't have a lot of possessions every 40 min., not effective shooting the ball, have a high TO ratio, not compensating for the frenetic pace making up ground by rebounding the O-Glass better, and not getting to the line enough.

Theo - actually Iona hasn't been too good with how many possessions/gm as well as the others. 

If we protect the ball better and pass more judiciously, TO rate reduction obviously leads to more possessions.  More possessions, better shots lead to more O Rebs due to better positioning, etc.

There's a lot of work to be done.  For those that want to critique these criteria, they are pretty good, well accepted parameters by statisticians as most of you know.  Don't shoot the messenger.  Good news is these stats can change quickly as the spread between teams is not drastic.  And at the end of the day, we know if the feel of the games gets better, the guys will be winning. that is what will matter. 

Great thread with a lot of varying opinions. I like it, everyone is thinking.

I'll chime in with some thoughts of my own.

-I think this team should extend the defense more often. The best asset this team has is their length and depth why not disrupt other team's flow and try to manufacture some offense from defense? This team is relying on the block shot far too often and isn't getting enough ball deflections on the perimeter.

-Playing uptempo requires rebounding and taking care of the basketball which this team is better than people will give credit. This isn't the problem here and when you run uptempo guys get hungrier on the boards because they want to run. This team hasn't done a good job at all of "counter punching" as Lavin would call it and get quick transition baskets.

-WASJU has a valid point that in order to be an uptempo team you have a to be a good shooting team. If you're taking quicker shots that means you're either making/missing more shots. This is why the team often runs false motion (aka the weave at the top of the key) taking off 10 seconds per possession to limit the other team's amount of possessions. This is a trademark of poor shooting teams.

-Harrison, Greene are just awful shot selectors. Harrison is like a poor man's Scottie Reynolds where he will put up chunks of points but hover around that 39-40% shooting. Why they settle for some awful shots when they should penetrate in the lane and get to the line is beyond me. When Lavin first took over the biggest difference was the aggressiveness and effort in getting to the free-throw line. 609 FTA in '09/10 to 783 FTA in '10/11 and last year this team went to the line 575 times. Awful! Greene and Harrison are both so good finishing with contact. I can say the same for Pointer, Branch, and even Sampson.

This team needs to realize and push the issue of I'm bigger, I'm faster, I'm stronger. Try to get past me, try to stop me.

Great thread with a lot of varying opinions. I like it, everyone is thinking.

I'll chime in with some thoughts of my own.

-I think this team should extend the defense more often. The best asset this team has is their length and depth why not disrupt other team's flow and try to manufacture some offense from defense? This team is relying on the block shot far too often and isn't getting enough ball deflections on the perimeter.

-Playing uptempo requires rebounding and taking care of the basketball which this team is better than people will give credit. This isn't the problem here and when you run uptempo guys get hungrier on the boards because they want to run. This team hasn't done a good job at all of "counter punching" as Lavin would call it and get quick transition baskets.

-WASJU has a valid point that in order to be an uptempo team you have a to be a good shooting team. If you're taking quicker shots that means you're either making/missing more shots. This is why the team often runs false motion (aka the weave at the top of the key) taking off 10 seconds per possession to limit the other team's amount of possessions. This is a trademark of poor shooting teams.

-Harrison, Greene are just awful shot selectors. Harrison is like a poor man's Scottie Reynolds where he will put up chunks of points but hover around that 39-40% shooting. Why they settle for some awful shots when they should penetrate in the lane and get to the line is beyond me. When Lavin first took over the biggest difference was the aggressiveness and effort in getting to the free-throw line. 609 FTA in '09/10 to 783 FTA in '10/11 and last year this team went to the line 575 times. Awful! Greene and Harrison are both so good finishing with contact. I can say the same for Pointer, Branch, and even Sampson.

This team needs to realize and push the issue of I'm bigger, I'm faster, I'm stronger. Try to get past me, try to stop me.

To add to your point Dave, in Lavin's first year, we played passing lanes on defense much, much more than we are now.  This season we are just dropping into standard defenses and not trying to pressure the ball handlers and the passing lanes.  We tortured teams with doing that in Lavin's first season.  Need to extend the defense a harrass backcourts much more.  If anything, our fantastic shotblocking in the back line can hedge for more of our aggressive D from the guards/wing.  Lavin always preached that he like to run "when we can".  We are obviously hurt by lack of shooting prowess, but little we can do about that now.  We do have the roster to pressure the ball on traps and play passing lanes a lot.  Turn teams over more.  It wil lead to less lulls from us as well.

If we have 12 players, why have we not gone to the press sooner? Did it fail early on at some point and then we abandoned it? Fine, it takes time to become a team. What we are seeing is that it takes Lavin more time than it takes other coaches to figure out what kind of team he's got. 

We expected that this would have been discovered in Europe. Lavin said that the trip wasn't about basketball, and from the looks of things, it wasn't. Now that we've seen our best stretch of basketball, and we see why it was our best stretch, hopefully the lights are on this Saturday on the sideline. If we come out with that soft, lazy zone against an improved Fordham team, we deserve to lose, or at least Lavin does.

Great thread with a lot of varying opinions. I like it, everyone is thinking.

I'll chime in with some thoughts of my own.

-I think this team should extend the defense more often. The best asset this team has is their length and depth why not disrupt other team's flow and try to manufacture some offense from defense? This team is relying on the block shot far too often and isn't getting enough ball deflections on the perimeter.

-Playing uptempo requires rebounding and taking care of the basketball which this team is better than people will give credit. This isn't the problem here and when you run uptempo guys get hungrier on the boards because they want to run. This team hasn't done a good job at all of "counter punching" as Lavin would call it and get quick transition baskets.

-WASJU has a valid point that in order to be an uptempo team you have a to be a good shooting team. If you're taking quicker shots that means you're either making/missing more shots. This is why the team often runs false motion (aka the weave at the top of the key) taking off 10 seconds per possession to limit the other team's amount of possessions. This is a trademark of poor shooting teams.

-Harrison, Greene are just awful shot selectors. Harrison is like a poor man's Scottie Reynolds where he will put up chunks of points but hover around that 39-40% shooting. Why they settle for some awful shots when they should penetrate in the lane and get to the line is beyond me. When Lavin first took over the biggest difference was the aggressiveness and effort in getting to the free-throw line. 609 FTA in '09/10 to 783 FTA in '10/11 and last year this team went to the line 575 times. Awful! Greene and Harrison are both so good finishing with contact. I can say the same for Pointer, Branch, and even Sampson.

This team needs to realize and push the issue of I'm bigger, I'm faster, I'm stronger. Try to get past me, try to stop me.

I cringe at the thought of extending the D.  Their propsensity for an Ole defense or fouling 45 feet from the basket scares the hell out of me.

Lavin did not "forget" the style of defense we played in his first year. We were able to play it because he had a team cinsisting entirely of of experienced seniors who were also old age wise. We were often playing men against boys. He is adapting his style to the players he currently has.

perhaps, but this team is experienced.. The inexperienced excuse flew out the window last season.

perhaps, but this team is experienced.. The inexperienced excuse flew out the window last season.

Exactly

Jordan, Sanchez, Hooper all new, Gift sat out year, Marco played little and only one semester. This team does not comapre to the Hardy team in experience--they were both older chronologically and 4 year seniors who had played major roles .

Quote from: Dave on December 04, 2013, 01:27:28 AM

Great thread with a lot of varying opinions. I like it, everyone is thinking.

I'll chime in with some thoughts of my own.

-I think this team should extend the defense more often. The best asset this team has is their length and depth why not disrupt other team's flow and try to manufacture some offense from defense? This team is relying on the block shot far too often and isn't getting enough ball deflections on the perimeter.

-Playing uptempo requires rebounding and taking care of the basketball which this team is better than people will give credit. This isn't the problem here and when you run uptempo guys get hungrier on the boards because they want to run. This team hasn't done a good job at all of "counter punching" as Lavin would call it and get quick transition baskets.

-WASJU has a valid point that in order to be an uptempo team you have a to be a good shooting team. If you're taking quicker shots that means you're either making/missing more shots. This is why the team often runs false motion (aka the weave at the top of the key) taking off 10 seconds per possession to limit the other team's amount of possessions. This is a trademark of poor shooting teams.

-Harrison, Greene are just awful shot selectors. Harrison is like a poor man's Scottie Reynolds where he will put up chunks of points but hover around that 39-40% shooting. Why they settle for some awful shots when they should penetrate in the lane and get to the line is beyond me. When Lavin first took over the biggest difference was the aggressiveness and effort in getting to the free-throw line. 609 FTA in '09/10 to 783 FTA in '10/11 and last year this team went to the line 575 times. Awful! Greene and Harrison are both so good finishing with contact. I can say the same for Pointer, Branch, and even Sampson.

This team needs to realize and push the issue of I'm bigger, I'm faster, I'm stronger. Try to get past me, try to stop me.

To add to your point Dave, in Lavin's first year, we played passing lanes on defense much, much more than we are now.  This season we are just dropping into standard defenses and not trying to pressure the ball handlers and the passing lanes.  We tortured teams with doing that in Lavin's first season.  Need to extend the defense a harrass backcourts much more.  If anything, our fantastic shotblocking in the back line can hedge for more of our aggressive D from the guards/wing.  Lavin always preached that he like to run "when we can".  We are obviously hurt by lack of shooting prowess, but little we can do about that now.  We do have the roster to pressure the ball on traps and play passing lanes a lot.  Turn teams over more.  It wil lead to less lulls from us as well.

I don't know that we intentionally played passing lanes more in Lavin's first year, I think those guys were more experienced and anticipated where the next pass was going.   Our guys now, either don't have that experience, or aren't sure of themselves enough to jump in a passing lane.
That will come with time I think.   A little help from the coaching staff telling the guys it's OK to be aggressive wouldn't hurt either.

I think the same could be said for when we play zone.   It's not that our guys are slow rotating, it's that they don't anticipate where the ball is going.  For example: when the ball is being swung around the perimeter, our defenders on the baseline rotate out to cover shooters in the corner AFTER the ball leaves the hands of the guy at the top of the key.     Whereas when you watch Syracuse (saw this really clearly last night)  they start rotating halfway to the weakside corner when the ball is swung to the top of the key.   They anticipate the next pass will be to the guy in the corner, and if it's not and the ball is reversed, then they haven't fully committed so they can go back.

Basically i think the defense was better in '10 because those guys were more experienced and anticipated where the ball was going.   And I'm hoping that our guys pick up on that too.

Also, fwiw, I think there can be a big difference in how you press.   I think BballPurist mentioned it above.
I would much rather see us apply full court man on man pressure with our guards, then to trap.   I didn't see a lot of trapping against Georgia tech.
I worry that if we start trapping then you'll get odd man situations for the offense, leaving us chasing wide open 3pt shooters.   

But if we're going to let Dom/Phil/Jamal/Rhysheed pickup their men off the inbound, that's fine.   I think that could work nicely.   Even if we don't create a turnover, at the very least it may make the offense bring help, and then we have non-point guards handling the ball.   Plus, ideally, it forces them to use 10secs off the shot clock, rather than getting the ball across in a second or two.   Doesn't sound like a lot, but the shot clock just became 8 seconds shorter... that makes a difference.

Jordan, Sanchez, Hooper all new, Gift sat out year, Marco played little and only one semester. This team does not comapre to the Hardy team in experience--they were both older chronologically and 4 year seniors who had played major roles .

Sanchez is 25 years old. He's played pro ball. His performance has been dismal. Lavin has brought in more talent than we're used to, but he's the one who hyped up these guys. Maybe he should get the hell off if Twitter, and stop saying outrageous shit about recruits?

The fact is, several players have improved. And several players have regressed. No one has made that jump. We play SU on the 15th. Check out this scrub Trevor Cooney. Who the hell is that? That's who Max Hooper and Marco Bourgault should be.

I don't know how you could call this team "inexperienced" at this point.