I am giving Lavin at least one more season.

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2014, 05:37:53 PM »
redstorm212, I think what you're saying is very fair.  This is year 4 and is the only year in which you can truly say he's "underachieved" with the group and circumstances.  In that sense it should be assumed that he should be allowed back for another year and I certainly understand and agree at least somewhat to those who say he should be back.

I think the disturbing things, for me at least, have been his lack of energy on the recruiting trail, the fact that he's lost this team (in which most players will return next year barring transfer/declarations) and lack of individual skill development. 

If there's a culture problem here this year, why would it automatically change next year with pretty much the entire team back?

I think the one thing that ABSOLUTELY must happen is there has to be a serious discussion between the school and Lavin about whether or not he's invested in this thing for the foreseeable future, and that he and his staff needs to show the work ethic to reflect that.  No short cuts.  If he is wobbly about being in this thing, then it's time to part ways.

Here's why you would rather part ways now as opposed to next year: if you get a new coach in here now, he can establish a new coach with this group and win with them.  You also have a full year to recruit for the "big class" you replace next year and 2 years for the other big class of players you'll have to replace. 

A coach based on discipline like a Hurley or Masiello who may lack in national name recognition would be served well to inherit a group that they can win with right away in order to establish momentum for the program.  Think about what Frank Martin inherited when he took over Kansas State when Bob Huggins left.  Martin was not a huge national name but established momentum for that program because he inherited a great group when he came in with Beasley, Clemente, Bill Walker and Jacob Pullen.  Winning his first year was central to him having recruiting success moving forward with that school.
"When excuses become your reason for losing then it is time to find the nearest mirror." -Mike Dunlap

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2014, 05:49:07 PM »
Jordan is going nowhere unless he gets a hardship transfer to go home and Temple is bad this year too. Obepka is not giving up a year of eligibility. He also knows that next year he will be the man here since Gift and Sanchez are gone. No one is transfering at this point. We have a need for at least one big man to back up Obepka, and I am confident Lavin will sign someone.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2014, 06:03:33 PM »
I know I will probably be killed for this post as it is not calling for Lavin's head. But I am hopeful there are others who feel the same way. Lavin's tenure here has been disappointing, no doubt about it. He himself said this was the year we'd make noise. He has proven himself full of hot air many times in his time here. He has also made many questionable coaching decisions. I understand 0-5 after two losing seasons will make some call for him being fired.

Lavin's roster construction can also be called into question. No team leader, too many athletic players who can't shoot or dribble.

With all of that said, here is my argument for why I am going to support him for at least one more season:

1.) Lavin was asked to replace 9 seniors his first year here. He was not given the luxury of picking and choosing players for his system (What his system is exactly has yet to be seen). He just knew he needed players. So, he probably and understandably took risks on some players (Garrett, Sampson, Pelle being the main ones.) He, as well as many here thought Dom would develop more at this point and would be a better player than what he has become. He probably thought he'd have Harkless for at least 2-3 seasons. This 2011 class, while talented, had no players with high Bball IQ's. Now you can say this is on Lavin, and that is fair, but he also needed to replace 9 players and gambled a bit. Now that we have a more balanced roster construction, meaning we don't have 9 players graduating at once, I am willing to give Lavin another chance at another big recruiting class, this time being 2015.

2.) His success at UCLA cannot be ignored. You can say he sucks as a game coach. You can say he's full of hot air. Say whatever you want about him. The guy won consistently at UCLA. So I can't understand why posters are saying he can never win here. He's done it already in year one with even lower tier talent (Norm's players). And he did it consistently at UCLA. I do think he needs a tactician like Dunlap, but that is not impossible to get. No one was questioning Lavin's coaching when we made the tourney. Questioning coaching decisions is a result of losing. Any coach who loses is going to have his every decision placed under a microscope. I don't agree with many decisions Lavin has made. But I understand that every coach who has back to back poor seasons is going to have his every move criticized just as badly as Lavin's are now. 

3.) When Lavin was hired here, how many top 100 recruits would you have guessed he would've had at this point? My guess would have been somewhere in the 2-4 range. Maybe one per class if we're lucky, which would've been much better than Norm, and in the shape the program was in would have been an achievement. I don't think there was any other coach outside of a big name that could have done the job recruiting that Lavin has done. Now, obviously he didn't do a good job picking the right players, but being able to recruit high ranked recruits and get them to commit is an irreplaceable asset that Lavin gives us.  I fear that if we lose Lavin, we will not be able to recruit even close to the level we are now. We will probably recruit a little better than we did under Norm. Which means, maybe a top 100 every other year or so. I don't want that.

4.) I don't think starting over again is the answer. Switching coaches every 5 years is just not smart. You have to give a coach time to build a program, and that sometimes takes longer than 5 years. With Norm, it was different as he was about to have 9 seniors graduate with no sign of sniffing the tournament. That and no sign of recruiting any better.

So, I guess the simplified reason I am going to give Lavin more time is that I am willing to call his first batch of players a failed experiment, and am going to let him recruit a new batch in 2015 and see how next season goes. Obviously, if we have a complete bomb of a season next year as well, my mind may change. I admit the confidence I once had in Lavin is gone, but I am still hopeful he can be successful here.  I think we are better off sticking with Lavin, than hiring an up and comer. If we hire an up and comer in a BE that is not close to what it used to be, we may be signing up as a mid-major.

 

 1. Unless you think that we are keeping Obekpa and Sampson until they are seniors and Rysheed until he is a junior, we will likely have 9 scholarships open for 2015 with Adonis Delarosa who is our only reported target right now. With somehow those guys staying we have 6 scholarships with Adonis. Still a whole lot. Not good scholarship management with a whole new roster.

2. UCLA isnt a particularly hard job to have some success in. You pretty much get a pick of talent and Im sure he had good assistants to teach the game to players. Im not discounting his success, but keep in mind, everyone thought the teams had the ability to be even better.

3. Sure we get highly ranked recruits, but if you can't coach those recruits to get better, then they are just athletes. Name one player that got better in their time here? Look at Creighton for example. Very nonathletic, but very smart team win a lot of games.

4. I don't think starting over every 5 years is smart either, but it needs to be done. This team hasn't made steps forward on the court.

I don't think the athletes he brought in were bad. I just think he doesn't have a system and development that works. Also very poor arrangement of players.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 06:04:49 PM »
I think even if Jordan and Obepka leave this is a tourney team next season.

Why would Oblockpa leave?  He's a 30+ minute center next season by default.  He'll average 6 blocks a game.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2014, 06:07:09 PM »
Our job isn't a bad job. We are one of the top 50 NCAA college jobs with top 20 job potential if a coach can have success. We deserve better.

desco80

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 06:14:47 PM »
I think even if Jordan and Obepka leave this is a tourney team next season.

Why would Oblockpa leave?  He's a 30+ minute center next season by default.  He'll average 6 blocks a game.

Dave said he thought about leaving last year.  And now PMG says he's ready to go play in the D-league rather than come back.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 06:15:10 PM by desco80 »

boo3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 06:22:47 PM »
 Thoughts about Repole... who ,obviously is the big $$$ man...

How instrumental was he in bringing in Lavin?

If he is unhappy with the way things are going thus far, does he have enough influence to force a move, ie-  pay the buyout?

Final question-  Depending on the answer to #1,  if Lavin is a bad choice, as it seems most on the boards think he is,  is Repole the guy we want leading the charge for a replacement.


......Guys like Repole don't like to proven wrong or losing, no matter what... I think he will give Lavin every opportunity to right the ship, because, he looks bad if this continues to blow up..  What role does Monasch play in this?  I get the impression he couldn't care less.


Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 06:45:47 PM »
Please just please stop talking about 2015 and open your damn eyes because this program is ready to go down in flames.  He has done a horrendous job and there is a very bleek future and you all think he is going to land a top recruiting class in 2015.  Based on what?

Why would anyone want to come here anymore when every player that he got was promised a fast track to the NBA only to become a worse player over time?

boo3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 06:55:57 PM »
Please just please stop talking about 2015 and open your damn eyes because this program is ready to go down in flames.  He has done a horrendous job and there is a very bleek future and you all think he is going to land a top recruiting class in 2015.  Based on what?

Why would anyone want to come here anymore when every player that he got was promised a fast track to the NBA only to become a worse player over time?

 I'll bite...

" based on what"-   based on his recruiting ability since he's been here..  He has recruited better than anyone here in a long , long time.. It's just a fact.  Move on..


"when every player that he got was promised a fast track to the NBA "-   how on god's green earth do you know he promised anyone a fast track to the NBA?  Define fast track....

 People would take you and your points more serious if you didn't make shit up on a daily basis.. stick to the facts... there are plenty to probe your point that he isn't a great coach... ruining the program?  come one dude..   

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 07:11:23 PM »
Quote
Define fast track


You really are a little peanut Boo its like you try to degrade when you hear something you don't like.

Let me explain "fast track" to you...

Players like Sampson, Pointer, Obeckpa, Harrison, and so forth who were top rated players coming in and had the dream of playing in the NBA were fed Lavin's B.S. that him and his great NBA developmental staff would prepare them and make them the player they need to be to make it in the NBA. 

Would you agree with the prior statement you peanut?


Lavin assembled a staff of all YES men who are his pals and so called NBA gurus like Martin, Hines, Keady and himself.  He probably filled them in about all Gene Keady's success at Purdue and how he was a top notch coach at UCLA for all those years in case they weren't aware.  This great staff was supposed to be the difference maker for most of these kids and that's why they came. 

How is it working out for them all now Boo?

What NBA talent is there even remaining on this roster?

nudginator59

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 07:13:54 PM »
What happens of he blows the rest of the season and the teams "gels" in the BE tournament and wins the damn thing and make the tournament. Would that be considered a successful season regardless of seed and losing in the first round?

What made things easier to fire Norm was the fact that he lost in the 1st round of the NIT.  If he went on little run and made it to the finals I think he would have been back to coach his seniors.
 
Cougar O' Malley

boo3

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 07:23:43 PM »
Quote
Define fast track


You really are a little peanut Boo its like you try to degrade when you hear something you don't like.

Let me explain "fast track" to you...

Players like Sampson, Pointer, Obeckpa, Harrison, and so forth who were top rated players coming in and had the dream of playing in the NBA were fed Lavin's B.S. that him and his great NBA developmental staff would prepare them and make them the player they need to be to make it in the NBA. 

Would you agree with the prior statement you peanut?


Lavin assembled a staff of all YES men who are his pals and so called NBA gurus like Martin, Hines, Keady and himself.  He probably filled them in about all Gene Keady's success at Purdue and how he was a top notch coach at UCLA for all those years in case they weren't aware.  This great staff was supposed to be the difference maker for most of these kids and that's why they came. 

How is it working out for them all now Boo?

What NBA talent is there even remaining on this roster?

" Fed Lavin's BS"  -  for someone who just starting posting here a week ago you sure have a lot of behind the scenes insight into conversations between players and the coaches.  Can you tell us how these conversations went?   You have no clue.  No idea if any promises were made about the NBA.. That is ignorance on your part..

 Sampson is a soph as is Obekpa-  book isn't closed on these guys yet, is it?  According to you it is, but your opinion is as worthless as tits on a bull, to be quite honest.


 Oh yeah-  how did I degrade you?  Little sensitive.. I suggested you stick to facts, which you clearly are having trouble with..

 "Peanut"-  Is that supposed to offend me somehow?  What does that even mean?   

 Your ignorance defines you unfortunately on this board..  Right up there with the rest of the loons that have made there way through and then eventually fade away due to their own stupidity...  It wouldn't surprise me if you were just a regurgitated piece of trash from this boards past....

 ps-  how's that for degrading ,you clown?

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 07:32:13 PM »
Quote
Define fast track


You really are a little peanut Boo its like you try to degrade when you hear something you don't like.

Let me explain "fast track" to you...

Players like Sampson, Pointer, Obeckpa, Harrison, and so forth who were top rated players coming in and had the dream of playing in the NBA were fed Lavin's B.S. that him and his great NBA developmental staff would prepare them and make them the player they need to be to make it in the NBA. 

Would you agree with the prior statement you peanut?


Lavin assembled a staff of all YES men who are his pals and so called NBA gurus like Martin, Hines, Keady and himself.  He probably filled them in about all Gene Keady's success at Purdue and how he was a top notch coach at UCLA for all those years in case they weren't aware.  This great staff was supposed to be the difference maker for most of these kids and that's why they came. 

How is it working out for them all now Boo?

What NBA talent is there even remaining on this roster?

" Fed Lavin's BS"  -  for someone who just starting posting here a week ago you sure have a lot of behind the scenes insight into conversations between players and the coaches.  Can you tell us how these conversations went?   You have no clue.  No idea if any promises were made about the NBA.. That is ignorance on your part..

 Sampson is a soph as is Obekpa-  book isn't closed on these guys yet, is it?  According to you it is, but your opinion is as worthless as tits on a bull, to be quite honest.


 Oh yeah-  how did I degrade you?  Little sensitive.. I suggested you stick to facts, which you clearly are having trouble with..

 "Peanut"-  Is that supposed to offend me somehow?  What does that even mean?   

 Your ignorance defines you unfortunately on this board..  Right up there with the rest of the loons that have made there way through and then eventually fade away due to their own stupidity...  It wouldn't surprise me if you were just a regurgitated piece of trash from this boards past....

 ps-  how's that for degrading ,you clown?

amen brother.

SJUFAN

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 07:41:17 PM »
Quote
Define fast track
Players like Sampson, Pointer, Obeckpa, Harrison, and so forth who were top rated players coming in and had the dream of playing in the NBA were fed Lavin's B.S. that him and his great NBA developmental staff would prepare them and make them the player they need to be to make it in the NBA. 


Malik Stith also dreamed about playing in the NBA..... point being?

He probably filled them in about all Gene Keady's success at Purdue and how he was a top notch coach at UCLA for all those years in case they weren't aware. 

In other words, you have no idea what he told them, your just speculating.

This great staff was supposed to be the difference maker for most of these kids and that's why they came. 

hmmmmm....lets see for most of the kids that Lavin brought in are still in school. Harkless is in the NBA. What's the problem?

What NBA talent is there even remaining on this roster?

So you believe Lavin can't coach or can't recruit or both? If he can't recruit, how do we know he can't coach since there is no talent? If he can't coach, how do we know there in no NBA talent? If its both and there is no NBA talent, then its not Lavins fault they didn't make it to the league just as its not his fault Malik Stith isn't in the NBA. If you feel there is no NBA talent then that would not scare away true NBA talent from coming to the program because its not Lavin's fault he couldn't get Non-NBA talent to the league. You are all over the place.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 07:43:27 PM by SJUFAN »

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2014, 07:50:15 PM »
Is there a nominating process to ban folks? Some people  "need to go" ASAP.

+1

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2014, 09:18:32 PM »
Good post 212..  I agree with most..  He has 2 more years to go on his contract... He is getting another year, so we will se how this turns out..  Lavin has created this mess, he deserves the chance to try and make it right..  Obviously, starting now.

 I am not in favor of the revolving door coaching carousel.  It doesn't work, imo... Apparently there are number of examples of it working.OK.

The problem is, 212,  that you will likely get attacked and called a Kool-aide drinker, because that fits with the narrative of certain folks.. It's best to let their own stupidity hang them. 

 In the end.. it's just a game, and college at that...   Maybe it's the apathy built up inside.. In reality, I actually don't care one way or another what happens after this season... It's been said a million times-  STJ doesn't have a president.. they aren't firing their highest paid employee and eating 2 years of a contract..  If the argument is that Steve will leave on his own accord, well,  we shall see.

 

For argument sake, what if they go 3-15 in conference? What then?
I think even if Jordan and Obepka leave this is a tourney team next season. I say there is no way he leaves before next season.

Dlo branch Phil Dom Jakarr is a tourny team next year? Not with Lavin. Well maybe it would require less thinking on his part so I guess you could be right.
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

desco80

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2014, 09:31:02 PM »
Good post 212..  I agree with most..  He has 2 more years to go on his contract... He is getting another year, so we will se how this turns out..  Lavin has created this mess, he deserves the chance to try and make it right..  Obviously, starting now.

 I am not in favor of the revolving door coaching carousel.  It doesn't work, imo... Apparently there are number of examples of it working.OK.

The problem is, 212,  that you will likely get attacked and called a Kool-aide drinker, because that fits with the narrative of certain folks.. It's best to let their own stupidity hang them. 

 In the end.. it's just a game, and college at that...   Maybe it's the apathy built up inside.. In reality, I actually don't care one way or another what happens after this season... It's been said a million times-  STJ doesn't have a president.. they aren't firing their highest paid employee and eating 2 years of a contract..  If the argument is that Steve will leave on his own accord, well,  we shall see.

 

For argument sake, what if they go 3-15 in conference? What then?
I think even if Jordan and Obepka leave this is a tourney team next season. I say there is no way he leaves before next season.

Dlo branch Phil Dom Jakarr is a tourny team next year? Not with Lavin. Well maybe it would require less thinking on his part so I guess you could be right.

I definitely agree Mase.   I wish it wasn't so, but that's the reality it looks like.
WASJU, I'd like to agree with you.  And part of my head says yea, those players = tournament.   The problem is, the same argument could've been made going into this season and look where we are.

Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2014, 09:35:46 PM »
Good post 212..  I agree with most..  He has 2 more years to go on his contract... He is getting another year, so we will se how this turns out..  Lavin has created this mess, he deserves the chance to try and make it right..  Obviously, starting now.

 I am not in favor of the revolving door coaching carousel.  It doesn't work, imo... Apparently there are number of examples of it working.OK.

The problem is, 212,  that you will likely get attacked and called a Kool-aide drinker, because that fits with the narrative of certain folks.. It's best to let their own stupidity hang them. 

 In the end.. it's just a game, and college at that...   Maybe it's the apathy built up inside.. In reality, I actually don't care one way or another what happens after this season... It's been said a million times-  STJ doesn't have a president.. they aren't firing their highest paid employee and eating 2 years of a contract..  If the argument is that Steve will leave on his own accord, well,  we shall see.

 

For argument sake, what if they go 3-15 in conference? What then?
I think even if Jordan and Obepka leave this is a tourney team next season. I say there is no way he leaves before next season.

Dlo branch Phil Dom Jakarr is a tourny team next year? Not with Lavin. Well maybe it would require less thinking on his part so I guess you could be right.

I definitely agree Mase.   I wish it wasn't so, but that's the reality it looks like.
WASJU, I'd like to agree with you.  And part of my head says yea, those players = tournament.   The problem is, the same argument could've been made going into this season and look where we are.

* A better argument could have been made going into this season
*wipes ketchup from his eyes* - I guess Heinz sight isn’t 20/20.

0404

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2014, 10:13:06 PM »

 1. Unless you think that we are keeping Obekpa and Sampson until they are seniors and Rysheed until he is a junior, we will likely have 9 scholarships open for 2015 with Adonis Delarosa who is our only reported target right now. With somehow those guys staying we have 6 scholarships with Adonis. Still a whole lot. Not good scholarship management with a whole new roster.

This has me beyond worried for our future. Ugh.

cjfish

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Re: I am giving Lavin at least one more season.
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2014, 10:48:22 PM »
Please just please stop talking about 2015 and open your damn eyes because this program is ready to go down in flames.  He has done a horrendous job and there is a very bleek future and you all think he is going to land a top recruiting class in 2015.  Based on what?

Why would anyone want to come here anymore when every player that he got was promised a fast track to the NBA only to become a worse player over time?
I agree with most of what you have said over the last week but am not as negative about the future.  There is a lot of time between now and 2015.  If these players somehow develop in spite of Lavin and he can sign a decent big, 2014 could be good.   SJU will always have NY and the prestige of that alone should keep the recruits coming in, barring another scandal of course.
.

" based on what"-   based on his recruiting ability since he's been here..  He has recruited better than anyone here in a long , long time.. It's just a fact.  Move on..


"when every player that he got was promised a fast track to the NBA "-   how on god's green earth do you know he promised anyone a fast track to the NBA?  Define fast track....

 People would take you and your points more serious if you didn't make shit up on a daily basis.. stick to the facts... there are plenty to probe your point that he isn't a great coach... ruining the program?  come one dude..