Frontcourt vs. Backcourt

 I'm not defending Greene, and have no problem with all the criticism. 

Still doesn't mean you are right though.   He's not nearly as bad as he's made out to be.   All I'm saying.

Quote from: we are sju on January 30, 2014, 01:52:50 PM

Quote from: boo3 on January 30, 2014, 01:38:31 PM

I don't think Phil is nearly as bad as he is made out on here... On more than a couple of occasions he's carried this team on offense for stretches..  He's not a point, obviously.. He's a good guard off the bench can sometimes make shots and won't turn it over.. 


" We need a second scorer in the worst way"

 ^  misconception.. We need a first scorer in the worst way. Our "first scorer" is a better second scorer..  I don't care about numbers, D-lo has struggled in games I've seen.  It happens..

My favorite Greene defense:"well he is not a point guard". The problem with this of course is that he frequently plays there. That would be like defending your mailman by saying he is not really a mailman? If he drives a white truck, wears goofy short pants and hands out mail he is a mailman. Greene plays the point guard position, so it is fair to criticize his playing the point guard position.

But, wasju, if you're on a plane and the pilot dies, the flight attendant takes over and crash lands the plane, you don't complain that he didn't bring it down smoothly.  Nuri left, Branch had to sit.  Then, Branch is injured.  Phil was forced to play the point (with a hip that needed surgery).  Granted, this year, he should not be playing it anymore, now that Jordan and Branch are both available to play.

My complaint would be who is bringing me my Bloody Mary's if the flight attendant is flying the plane.

I understand the point, Greene is not putting himself at the point, but as a fan it is still frustrating to watch him play there. 

I'm not defending Greene, and have no problem with all the criticism. 

Still doesn't mean you are right though.   He's not nearly as bad as he's made out to be.   All I'm saying.

Boo, if the argument is it is not right to criticize a college basketball player on a fan forum, then, though I do not agree, I can understand the argument.
The argument that Greene is not that bad, I disagree with. He is not a good shooter. The stat sheet verifies that. I don't care if he has the best % on this team, this team can't shoot. You kow the whole prettiest ugly girl is still ugly thing.
And anyone other than Carmine and Lavin can see he is not a point guard. Can't shoot, not a point, what exactly is he good at?

Again nothing personal against Phil but this is a basketball forum. This is something some have a hard time understanding. The same with Norm. I never understood the whole"Norm is a good guy". Who cares? He was a bad coach.

I question whether the criticism is commensurate with his level of play.  My argument is that he is more harshly criticized than his level of play/production deserves.

I question whether the criticism is commensurate with his level of play.  My argument is that he is more harshly criticized than his level of play/production deserves.

I'd say the same if not more is the case with Harrison.
Two of the most scrutinized players in history of SJU.  Harrison will finish as 3rd leading scorer and Greene 'might' hit 1000 points

We need a second scorer in the worst way, and for three years now we've all looked for Phil to be that guy.   He's not a terrible player by any means, but he'll never be the sweet shooting 13ppg guy that we need.    Fans need to stop holding him to an expectation that was never inline with his ability.    And coach needs to forget about playing him at pg.   That is not his position.

But at the same time this isn't intramurals.   And we shouldn't give Phil credit simply for keeping his nose clean and giving 100%.     This is a very high level of basketball, and you should be judged by your level of skill and production. 

If we looked for Phil to be our #2 scorer, should Sampson put a gun to his head.  6-9 with hopps, he should be our leading scorer. If he's not moving the ball, and he puts his head down and drives, he might as well be. I'll take it.

Quote from: boo3 on January 30, 2014, 02:12:29 PM

I'm not defending Greene, and have no problem with all the criticism. 

Still doesn't mean you are right though.   He's not nearly as bad as he's made out to be.   All I'm saying.

Boo, if the argument is it is not right to criticize a college basketball player on a fan forum, then, though I do not agree, I can understand the argument.
The argument that Greene is not that bad, I disagree with. He is not a good shooter. The stat sheet verifies that. I don't care if he has the best % on this team, this team can't shoot. You kow the whole prettiest ugly girl is still ugly thing.
And anyone other than Carmine and Lavin can see he is not a point guard. Can't shoot, not a point, what exactly is he good at?

Again nothing personal against Phil but this is a basketball forum. This is something some have a hard time understanding. The same with Norm. I never understood the whole"Norm is a good guy". Who cares? He was a bad coach.

I thought Phil would get to the rim and the line more. I also thought the same about Branch.

Gotta get Larry Legend back!

point guard minutes should be split between Branch and Jordan, with Jordan getting at least high 20s.  He is the future and possible the present.  The Phil experiment at the point should be over, too much dribbling and head down drives, not a passer, assist numbers are awful.  He should be used only  to spell Dlo at shooting guard.   

Quote from: we are sju on January 30, 2014, 02:21:36 PM

Quote from: boo3 on January 30, 2014, 02:12:29 PM

I'm not defending Greene, and have no problem with all the criticism. 

Still doesn't mean you are right though.   He's not nearly as bad as he's made out to be.   All I'm saying.

Boo, if the argument is it is not right to criticize a college basketball player on a fan forum, then, though I do not agree, I can understand the argument.
The argument that Greene is not that bad, I disagree with. He is not a good shooter. The stat sheet verifies that. I don't care if he has the best % on this team, this team can't shoot. You kow the whole prettiest ugly girl is still ugly thing.
And anyone other than Carmine and Lavin can see he is not a point guard. Can't shoot, not a point, what exactly is he good at?

Again nothing personal against Phil but this is a basketball forum. This is something some have a hard time understanding. The same with Norm. I never understood the whole"Norm is a good guy". Who cares? He was a bad coach.

I thought Phil would get to the rim and the line more. I also thought the same about Branch.

Branch gets to the lane much more than phil does.

We need a second scorer in the worst way, and for three years now we've all looked for Phil to be that guy.   He's not a terrible player by any means, but he'll never be the sweet shooting 13ppg guy that we need.    Fans need to stop holding him to an expectation that was never inline with his ability.    And coach needs to forget about playing him at pg.   That is not his position.

But at the same time this isn't intramurals.   And we shouldn't give Phil credit simply for keeping his nose clean and giving 100%.     This is a very high level of basketball, and you should be judged by your level of skill and production. 

Excellent post

I argued A simalar point.This is high major BB. Can't start someone because they worked hard in practice. Got to look at who gets the job done during the games.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 30, 2014, 01:20:21 AM

Quote from: Celtics11 on January 30, 2014, 01:14:22 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 30, 2014, 01:06:31 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 28, 2014, 08:54:30 AM

When has ur boy been an MVP vs a good team?

This exercise was not easy as you did not provide me with what you consider to be what I consider to be the very subjective definition of "good" team.

I started by looking at nationally ranked opponents and came up with these MVP performances by my "boy":

11/18/12  Baylor  ranked #16

2/14/13   Louisville ranked #12

3/9/13   Marquette ranked #15

Then I began looking at all opponents that begin with the letter "V"...jkjk...I picked Villanova because they've been good for a long time, are well coached and are a traditional strong conference rival; and I picked Virginia because they've been a decent program in the nations best conference, it was a second round NIT game and I liked Ralph Sampson:

3/13/13  Villanova

3/24/13  Virginia

Do you see now how perception often doesn't mesh with reality?

This is fun.  You guys are making my argument for me.  Even I didn't realize what a fine player he's been for us.
 

How many of those games did we win. Going on memory alone I think None.

You mean to tell me that if we don't win, than Phil is no good?  I'm trumped...You Win...the Square sucks along with our entire team!

Carmine, even Lavin seems to be coming to the conclusion that Phil isn't any good. If even he can see that surely you can too?
Having met Carmine once, I think the problem may be that he has his beer goggles on watching Phil play. Phil is like that drunken college late night booty call. You know the girl you always call when you are in the bag, then you run into her in the daytime sober and you want to punch yourself in the face. I think the problem is Carmine has never seen Phil in the light of day sober. When that finally happens Carmine will give up the ghost.

I'm very impressed with your ability to read my so well from our single brief encounter.  Spot on.  My long suffering AA sponsor has noted the same on numerous occasions.

Phil Greene earned a D1 basketball scholarship in a major conference on a decent team.  That, by definition, makes him a pretty good basketball player.  He has managed to play significant minutes and make valuable contributions to our relative success despite being the lowest ranked of all of our recruits the year he came in.  I don't think anyone expected him to be more than an end of the bench guy when Lavin signed him.  An extra body to fill out our scholarship needs.  He has played better and contributed more than was expected.  I am neither a carmine-esque idolater nor am I a basher.  I appreciate his play and what he has given us.  He is not a point guard but he played it when we needed him to.  He gave it his all.  He doesn't deserve the bashing that he receives on these boards.

In 1600 posts I have never done an +1, until now.  In this single well thought out post,  you have deftly managed to render a pro-Greene argument that is palpable to the backup quarterback mentality, anti-Greene Establishment.   

This is the typical scenario of my Greene tete-a-tetes.

1) An unjust anti-Greene statement or comment is rendered.

2) I respond with rock solid statistical facts that disprove the statement.

3) Either my facts are ignored and further anti-Greene posts ensue or I get posed a follow up question.

4) I than respond with additional rock solid statistical facts that completely address the follow up and further support my contention.

5) Original poster never admits that in light of the marvelous evidence I've presented,  he stands corrected about Phil Greene.  And round and round we go.

You've accomplished more in this one post than I have in 500+.  Kudos and a huge +1.

 

And anyone other than Carmine and Lavin can see he is not a point guard.

Now your just making sh*t up.  I've commented specifically on this about 50 times.  Plus the time he's spent playing the point has decreased every season he's been here.  You're making it seem like the square has been handed the ball, it's your team,  your the point a la Jackson, Harvey, Barkley, Cook, Geno etc. for three years running now.  That's simply not the case.  He played a lot of point his freshman year once Nuri left after 11 games.  His sophomore year we were largely a point guard by committee team and this year he's played less point than ever with Rysheed and the Aggie manning the point more and the triangle playing often In three guard lineups.

Can't shoot

Not entirely true.  The truth is that he is not a consistently good shooter.  He has shot well for us on many occasions.  On other occasions,  his shooting numbers have been abysmal.  So far, his numbers this season have been the best of his career and are BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER GUARD on the team that you would never say "Can't shoot" about yet you continue with your passé rhetoric.

Wasju - PLEASE ANSWER ME TWO QUESTIONS:
 
In this thread I have listed MANY games where Phil has been an effective scorer and MANY games where Phil has been the best player on the team.  What is your take on that? and why is it not effective in softening your stance regarding Greene? 

The teams record is likely the same with or without him, no?

Not so.  We lose to Bucknell and Monmouth without him.

Quote from: we are sju on January 30, 2014, 02:21:36 PM

And anyone other than Carmine and Lavin can see he is not a point guard.

Now your just making sh*t up.  I've commented specifically on this about 50 times.  Plus the time he's spent playing the point has decreased every season he's been here.  You're making it seem like the square has been handed the ball, it's your team,  your the point a la Jackson, Harvey, Barkley, Cook, Geno etc. for three years running now.  That's simply not the case.  He played a lot of point his freshman year once Nuri left after 11 games.  His sophomore year we were largely a point guard by committee team and this year he's played less point than ever with Rysheed and the Aggie manning the point more and the triangle playing often In three guard lineups.

Quote

Can't shoot

Not entirely true.  The truth is that he is not a consistently good shooter.  He has shot well for us on many occasions.  On other occasions,  his shooting numbers have been abysmal.  So far, his numbers this season have been the best of his career and are BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER GUARD on the team that you would never say "Can't shoot" about yet you continue with your passé rhetoric.

Wasju - PLEASE ANSWER ME TWO QUESTIONS:
 
In this thread I have listed MANY games where Phil has been an effective scorer and MANY games where Phil has been the best player on the team.  What is your take on that? and why is it not effective in softening your stance regarding Greene? 

Sorry to come between you two but if I may, what were the 2 out of 3 games recently where you said Phil was MVP?

Providence? His game was solid but 15 pts with 4 brds 0 asts is not better than Jakarrs 16 pts on better shooting % with 8 boards.
Dartmouth? More of a debate and another solid game but I would give the edge to Sanchez who had 8 pts 10 boards 4 blks 2 stls and 1 ast over greens 16 pts with 1 reb a stl 0 ast. 

Green can't be signled out. Green,   Branch, pointer all look to br 14 minute playerLook at the stats. Very disapointing. Does nods go to Green because he was playing out of po
siton and nothing much was thought about his game anyway. Hard to believe players ranked as high as Branch and Pointer would put up those kind of numbers. If it wasn't for a built up attachment they can all play 8 and we move on to our next three.

Quote from: Celtics11 on January 30, 2014, 01:14:22 AM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 30, 2014, 01:06:31 AM

Quote from: TONYD3 on January 28, 2014, 08:54:30 AM

When has ur boy been an MVP vs a good team?

This exercise was not easy as you did not provide me with what you consider to be what I consider to be the very subjective definition of "good" team.

I started by looking at nationally ranked opponents and came up with these MVP performances by my "boy":

11/18/12  Baylor  ranked #16

2/14/13   Louisville ranked #12

3/9/13   Marquette ranked #15

Then I began looking at all opponents that begin with the letter "V"...jkjk...I picked Villanova because they've been good for a long time, are well coached and are a traditional strong conference rival; and I picked Virginia because they've been a decent program in the nations best conference, it was a second round NIT game and I liked Ralph Sampson:

3/13/13  Villanova

3/24/13  Virginia

Do you see now how perception often doesn't mesh with reality?

This is fun.  You guys are making my argument for me.  Even I didn't realize what a fine player he's been for us.
 

How many of those games did we win. Going on memory alone I think None.

You mean to tell me that if we don't win, than Phil is no good?  I'm trumped...You Win...the Square sucks along with our entire team!

Touchy touchy. Was just asking a question because wasn't sure I was remembering correctly. But now that you mention it playing well to help a team win is more impressive than playing or putting up numbers in a losing effort especially if game is decided early. That's how most judge sports-in terms of wins and losses.

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on January 30, 2014, 09:15:07 PM

Quote from: we are sju on January 30, 2014, 02:21:36 PM

And anyone other than Carmine and Lavin can see he is not a point guard.

Now your just making sh*t up.  I've commented specifically on this about 50 times.  Plus the time he's spent playing the point has decreased every season he's been here.  You're making it seem like the square has been handed the ball, it's your team,  your the point a la Jackson, Harvey, Barkley, Cook, Geno etc. for three years running now.  That's simply not the case.  He played a lot of point his freshman year once Nuri left after 11 games.  His sophomore year we were largely a point guard by committee team and this year he's played less point than ever with Rysheed and the Aggie manning the point more and the triangle playing often In three guard lineups.

Quote

Can't shoot

Not entirely true.  The truth is that he is not a consistently good shooter.  He has shot well for us on many occasions.  On other occasions,  his shooting numbers have been abysmal.  So far, his numbers this season have been the best of his career and are BETTER THAN EVERY OTHER GUARD on the team that you would never say "Can't shoot" about yet you continue with your passé rhetoric.

Wasju - PLEASE ANSWER ME TWO QUESTIONS:
 
In this thread I have listed MANY games where Phil has been an effective scorer and MANY games where Phil has been the best player on the team.  What is your take on that? and why is it not effective in softening your stance regarding Greene? 

Sorry to come between you two but if I may, what were the 2 out of 3 games recently where you said Phil was MVP?

Providence? His game was solid but 15 pts with 4 brds 0 asts is not better than Jakarrs 16 pts on better shooting % with 8 boards.
Dartmouth? More of a debate and another solid game but I would give the edge to Sanchez who had 8 pts 10 boards 4 blks 2 stls and 1 ast over greens 16 pts with 1 reb a stl 0 ast. 

Providence - The unbiased radio announcers gave it to Phil.  I can certainly see a case for Jakarr.  I guess it was the defensive blanket he threw on BE top scorer Cotton and the 0 turnovers in 38 minutes that put him over the top.

Dartmouth - The unbiased tv announcers gave it to Phil.  DR shot only 30% from the field and Phil doubled his point total.  I guess it was his 4 for 5 from three that put him over the top.