Head coaches Post Louie

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boo3

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Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2015, 04:02:45 PM »
Exactly.... Baylor had players murder each other and a coach cover it up.... they bounced back just fine.. 

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2015, 05:01:43 PM »
This one hurts because I thought we had it right from the outset, and that feeling only multiplied during and after year one.  I was never sold on Norm.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2015, 05:31:22 PM »
This one hurts because I thought we had it right from the outset, and that feeling only multiplied during and after year one.  I was never sold on Norm.
so true, last year (and the past month of this year) hurt much more because lavin's success his first year, both on the court and recruiting (theoretically), gave me some actual expectations of making the tourney and winning some games.  I just assumed we would always suck under norm.

boo3

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Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2015, 06:01:13 PM »
 It's true.. Most everyone thought Lavin would be a step in the right direction for this program. Teased year one with a great season and recruiting class ...  Been basically downhill since. 

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2015, 07:58:46 PM »
This one hurts because I thought we had it right from the outset, and that feeling only multiplied during and after year one.  I was never sold on Norm.
so true, last year (and the past month of this year) hurt much more because lavin's success his first year, both on the court and recruiting (theoretically), gave me some actual expectations of making the tourney and winning some games.  I just assumed we would always suck under norm.
What compounds the misery is the players he did recruit, have NEVER gotten it done at crunch time.  This is four years of folding like a
whet suit in the closing minutes of games. With all the minutes and all the games they have played in four years, they still don't know
how to close out games when they have a lead.  It's not all on Lavin.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2015, 01:11:04 PM »
Norm and Mahoney had no business being head coaches at SJU in the first place. They had failed years prior as head coaches at jobs that were way lower level and they were good assistants. To me, they didn't have the resume to coach at SJU.  Both are very likable people, especially Mahoney but bad coaches.

Norm is worse than Mahoney because Mahoney did recruit some good players. Mahoney also had an NCAA appearance but they were with Louie's players. Mahoney was doomed since the Big erase expanded and got better during his time as coach, SJU had no choice but to fire him. UConn and GTown became top 10 teams again and the Cuse went to the Final 4.  The league had signed the deal with ESPN for the BE tourney and SJU knew Mahoney had to go but he was better than Norm.

Jarvis Lavin and Fran were all good hires at the time.

As PMG said I think that the admin completely mismanaged the Jarvis last season firing him six games into the season. He could've been died at the end of the year or brought back with a good incoming class. I know we would've chartered home after the Pitt game since Jarvis was adamant about the players going to class but the administration went cheap, both by flying commercial and not having an athletic department representative on the trip. They counted on the managers (me and two other students) to make sure they were in their rooms. There was no chanceof a good ending that night in Pittsburgh but it all could've been avoided  as well as the sanctions we got by not firing Jarvis six games into the season.

Jarvis coached the two best teams since Louie retired but Fran recruited the players.   Jarvis also has an NIT and another NCAA Tourney with his own players.

Fran's body of work is too smal to be judged but the program was obviously on the right track with him here but he was a maniac. The kids were always tight and his outburst at the United Center before the Detroit NCAA Tournament game completely screwed up the players heads. They played tight and lost a two-point game to a Detroit team they were better than. I don't know if Fran coaches Jarvis' first two teams as deep as Jarvis did because the players loved Jarvis and he did do a good job coaching those teams.  It's also no secret Fran was looking to leave for Arizona State. The admin was really pissed at that.

Jarvis also won a big east tournament and he is still the last coach to win a non ACC game at Duke. As good as a recruiter as Lavin is, name me one player Lavin has brought in who was a better player at SJU than Marcus Hatten. Please don't name Harrison, because Harrison is not in Hatten's class.

So that brings us to Lavin who, out of the Jarvis, Fran and Lavin group has by far underachieved the most, just making one NCAA tourney and that was with the players being coached by Mike Dunlap. Last year and this year have been complete disappointments, considering the talent we have had on the team, and if this class doesn't appear in an NCAA Tournemnt, it would make Lavin the worst in game coach maybe in the history of the Big East. This roster is loaded with Trent and the lack of direction and consistency goes directly to him.

Next year, although not completely set yet, looks like it can be an unmitigated disaster since Lavin was desperately counting on a commitment from Briscoe to solidify his recruiting class and get some heat off of him. It's great that he got Sampson and I know we are in the mix for DiAlo, but with Kansas and UK there I realistically don't think he will be here.  So if our top 6 players leave,next years team will be worse than Norms first team, which in Year 6 for Lavin is unacceptable.

That's why I put him as the worst of the three then Fran and Jarvis first.

boo3

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Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2015, 02:11:08 PM »
Good post.   Agree re:Hatten v Harrison.  Harrison's body of work more impressive due to playing 4 years, but Hatten brought magic to MSG for 2 seasons.   

Most entertaining player in last 15 years, post Artest.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2015, 02:29:47 PM »
I put Hardy for the 10-12 game stretch in 2011 with Hatten as well.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2015, 03:57:39 PM »
Good post.   Agree re:Hatten v Harrison.  Harrison's body of work more impressive due to playing 4 years, but Hatten brought magic to MSG for 2 seasons.   

Most entertaining player in last 15 years, post Artest.

Hatten is a more prolific scorer ( all time scoring average leader in big east games ahead of Allen Iverson), he was more clutch than Harrison, a better all around player ( especially on defense) and he won more with a lot less. He was literally a one man wrecking crew. If he was a four-year player he would definitely be a 2,000 point scorer. ( he had 1400 in two years).

I wouldn't jump so fast to say Harrison's body of work is more impressive. Other than scoring a lot of points, it ends there. Besides the walk off foul shot vs Duke, he also dropped 44 on Rutgers, and had 35 in a 16 point come from behind win at  GTown. The NIT isn't a great accomplish,EBT but he won that and took an SJU team to the NCAAS that hadno business wining 20 games.

Hatten is an all time great Redmen. Absolutely tremendous.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 04:20:12 PM »
Good post.   Agree re:Hatten v Harrison.  Harrison's body of work more impressive due to playing 4 years, but Hatten brought magic to MSG for 2 seasons.   

Most entertaining player in last 15 years, post Artest.

Hatten is a more prolific scorer ( all time scoring average leader in big east games ahead of Allen Iverson), he was more clutch than Harrison, a better all around player ( especially on defense) and he won more with a lot less. He was literally a one man wrecking crew. If he was a four-year player he would definitely be a 2,000 point scorer. ( he had 1400 in two years).

I wouldn't jump so fast to say Harrison's body of work is more impressive. Other than scoring a lot of points, it ends there. Besides the walk off foul shot vs Duke, he also dropped 44 on Rutgers, and had 35 in a 16 point come from behind win at  GTown. The NIT isn't a great accomplish,EBT but he won that and took an SJU team to the NCAAS that hadno business wining 20 games.

Hatten is an all time great Redmen. Absolutely tremendous.

Agreed. Would have been fun to see Hatten 4 years.
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Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2015, 07:09:48 PM »
Hatten and the 2003 NIT champions was incredible. Talk shit about the NIT all you want but I loved that run. They're still the champs.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2015, 07:46:05 PM »
Loved Marcus too but he would be getting ripped on this board nowadays for his mediocre field goal shooting percentages and abysmal 3 point shooting percentages.  Is perception reality?

1st year      - 38% from the field and 28% from three
2nd year   -  42% from the field and 30% from three

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2015, 08:28:50 PM »
I think those stats don't tell the whole story though, Carmine.  He was on a team that desperately lacked any kind of perimeter offense and a real point guard.  You put him on this squad with Harrison as the other wing (with Jamal or Sheeed at the point), and he wouldn't have to create nearly as much for himself, or take nearly as many tough/contested/forced shots.  Those shooting percentages would be much better.  Wish we would have be able to see Cook and Hatten play together.

Poison

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Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2015, 09:06:12 PM »
Loved Marcus too but he would be getting ripped on this board nowadays for his mediocre field goal shooting percentages and abysmal 3 point shooting percentages.  Is perception reality?

1st year      - 38% from the field and 28% from three
2nd year   -  42% from the field and 30% from three

Stats lie. He was awesome. The points he scored mattered.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2015, 09:11:54 PM »
Exactly.... Baylor had players murder each other and a coach cover it up.... they bounced back just fine.. 

They also pay players.

boo3

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Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2015, 09:25:49 PM »
Exactly.... Baylor had players murder each other and a coach cover it up.... they bounced back just fine.. 

They also pay players.

 Amazing that they don't get caught too, huh... We get caught for paying a crappy back up center $300 a week. ...go figure

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2015, 11:22:17 AM »
Norm and Mahoney had no business being head coaches at SJU in the first place. They had failed years prior as head coaches at jobs that were way lower level and they were good assistants. To me, they didn't have the resume to coach at SJU.  Both are very likable people, especially Mahoney but bad coaches.

Norm is worse than Mahoney because Mahoney did recruit some good players. Mahoney also had an NCAA appearance but they were with Louie's players. Mahoney was doomed since the Big erase expanded and got better during his time as coach, SJU had no choice but to fire him. UConn and GTown became top 10 teams again and the Cuse went to the Final 4.  The league had signed the deal with ESPN for the BE tourney and SJU knew Mahoney had to go but he was better than Norm.

Jarvis Lavin and Fran were all good hires at the time.

As PMG said I think that the admin completely mismanaged the Jarvis last season firing him six games into the season. He could've been died at the end of the year or brought back with a good incoming class. I know we would've chartered home after the Pitt game since Jarvis was adamant about the players going to class but the administration went cheap, both by flying commercial and not having an athletic department representative on the trip. They counted on the managers (me and two other students) to make sure they were in their rooms. There was no chanceof a good ending that night in Pittsburgh but it all could've been avoided  as well as the sanctions we got by not firing Jarvis six games into the season.

Jarvis coached the two best teams since Louie retired but Fran recruited the players.   Jarvis also has an NIT and another NCAA Tourney with his own players.

Fran's body of work is too smal to be judged but the program was obviously on the right track with him here but he was a maniac. The kids were always tight and his outburst at the United Center before the Detroit NCAA Tournament game completely screwed up the players heads. They played tight and lost a two-point game to a Detroit team they were better than. I don't know if Fran coaches Jarvis' first two teams as deep as Jarvis did because the players loved Jarvis and he did do a good job coaching those teams.  It's also no secret Fran was looking to leave for Arizona State. The admin was really pissed at that.

Jarvis also won a big east tournament and he is still the last coach to win a non ACC game at Duke. As good as a recruiter as Lavin is, name me one player Lavin has brought in who was a better player at SJU than Marcus Hatten. Please don't name Harrison, because Harrison is not in Hatten's class.

So that brings us to Lavin who, out of the Jarvis, Fran and Lavin group has by far underachieved the most, just making one NCAA tourney and that was with the players being coached by Mike Dunlap. Last year and this year have been complete disappointments, considering the talent we have had on the team, and if this class doesn't appear in an NCAA Tournemnt, it would make Lavin the worst in game coach maybe in the history of the Big East. This roster is loaded with Trent and the lack of direction and consistency goes directly to him.

Next year, although not completely set yet, looks like it can be an unmitigated disaster since Lavin was desperately counting on a commitment from Briscoe to solidify his recruiting class and get some heat off of him. It's great that he got Sampson and I know we are in the mix for DiAlo, but with Kansas and UK there I realistically don't think he will be here.  So if our top 6 players leave,next years team will be worse than Norms first team, which in Year 6 for Lavin is unacceptable.

That's why I put him as the worst of the three then Fran and Jarvis first.

I have it this way
1. Jarvis-don't care how he left the program or his last year and a half. Elite 8 was my favorite team post Louie and for some of the younger posters probably your all time favorite Johnnie team. Forget the annoying accent and pompous attitude, his best two teams were fun to watch and it might be the last time we win an NCAA tourney game, maybe ever.

2.Fran-If he wasn't crazy I think he would have had a real nice run here. His recruiting paved the way for the Elite 8 team and his first two years were as good as Lavin's 5 year run.

3. Lavin edges out Mahoney for simply removing the Norm stink for one year anyway

4. Mahoney- His first two years are actually better than Lavin's. Took a team of Louie's bench guys to NCAA, won BE coach of the year, then followed that up with the best recruiting class in school history. Rank him under Lavin becuase he did a little less with even better talent than Lavin.

5.Norm was a disaster

These are great look-backs...

What we're looking at is how four coaches performed running a woefully undercapitalized business; plus Lavin who had much more to work with.

I know Jarvis is the least popular to many.  The truth is, this team may never reach the heights it attained under his watch.  You may also say depths, but he wasn't here for Pittsburgh, so hate it as you may, that wasn't on him.  It was on the school president who was in way over his head in virtually every aspect of his career.  Posters who want Mr. Clean don't realize what has to be done to compete with the North Carolina's of the world where players don't attend any classes while the NCAA looks the other way...the Duke's where alums find parents of recruits jobs.  That's how we lost Boozer, if anyone remembers.  Not only were we a bump and possibly a bad call from the final four...but the team that beat us, Ohio State, had that win vacated because of recruiting violations.  I could go on.  The bottom line is, Jarvis operated in the sewer of the NCAA and was able to win despite the micromanaging of his boss who brought nothing to the table except negatives and nothing to help the school compete in what became the best basketball conference in history.  Jarvis wasn't lazy.  He was frustrated with a boss who was more concerned about buying nice suits in Hong Kong.

The second best coach was Fran.  He also had to compete against teams that were lavishing big bucks on their programs.  Maybe he was a nut case by Vincentian standards.  By my standards, he was a relentless freak who recruited with the best of them.  His Xs and Os apparently weren't the greatest, but who knew what he might have done with the team Jarvis inherited.

Third is Lavin.  He was given more tools than his counterparts. There's none of this "here are a few subway tokens, now go out and recruit", crap. He has brought in elite talent.  Finding eligible talent is another story.  Every year brings us a list of "might be  eligibles".  The compliance people are apparently good ole boys.  Lavin should have thrown all of them out on their asses.  His LALA land attitude hasn't worked in New York where everyone's trying to get over.  With all the coaching talent, he rarely gets the decent players we have to play as a team.  At least we've been ranked a few times.  That's more than we've seen in years, but it's far from enough.

Mahoney and Roberts are co-lasts.  Their bodies of work before they were hired should have been a red flag to the powers that make these decisions.  Mahoney was brought in to carry the Looie flag in an era where more than subway tokens were needed to keep the program at its high level of mediocrity.  Roberts was brought in to suck up to the president.  Wins and losses weren't part of the equation.  Roberts is a good man who deserved better.  He may be the most hated of ex-coaches because we thought he'd never leave.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2015, 01:00:43 PM »
Loved Marcus too but he would be getting ripped on this board nowadays for his mediocre field goal shooting percentages and abysmal 3 point shooting percentages.  Is perception reality?

1st year      - 38% from the field and 28% from three
2nd year   -  42% from the field and 30% from three

Hatten was truly a one man show and the more you shoot and the more the defense keys on stopping you, the worse your % will be. That is pretty obvious.

Also obvious is that Hatten is way better than Phil Greene, becuase we all know that is where you were going with this. If you can't  see that it is not close I don't know what to tell you anymore.

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2015, 02:57:27 PM »
Loved Marcus too but he would be getting ripped on this board nowadays for his mediocre field goal shooting percentages and abysmal 3 point shooting percentages.  Is perception reality?

1st year      - 38% from the field and 28% from three
2nd year   -  42% from the field and 30% from three

Hatten was truly a one man show and the more you shoot and the more the defense keys on stopping you, the worse your % will be. That is pretty obvious.

Also obvious is that Hatten is way better than Phil Greene, becuase we all know that is where you were going with this. If you can't  see that it is not close I don't know what to tell you anymore.

Marcus Hatten was an excellent basketball player that I enjoyed watching very much. My first post said that I "loved" him.  I'm quite sure that I've never typed one negative word about him in my life. Truth is,  I've had nary a negative word to say about the over whelming majority of the unpaid student athletes that represent our university.  I might point out underwhelming specifics about a particular game/stat or discuss what I feel could use improvement in their play  Ricky Torres, Grady Reynolds and Abe Keita spring to mind as rare exceptions.  However, I'm sure you would agree that the general tenure of my posting is positive and complimentary of all our players.

Marcus Hatten was here for two years.  He took us to the dance in one and won the Nit in the other.  So the fan base is in love with him.  Hence the Ronald Reagan analogy. Hilton, Prez, JB1 and 2 and Hardy boyz took us to the dance so we love them too.  If the current crop of seniors don't dance, they'll forever be remembered as garbage.  That's the way it works around here and that's human nature.

The fact remains that Hatten shot 38% from the field and 28% from 3 during his Ncaa run and he's canonized.  30% from three his second year. To say that a player is terrible and post stats to prove why he's terrible than turn around and say that a player is great with the same or worse stats, is hypocritical. Perhaps in the future just say that you like a player because he has a more well rounded game or "just because" or because he was on a team that made the Ncaa tournament or because he has an aesthetically pleasing shooting stroke or because he tried to fight Patrick Ewing or because his socks are appropriately low.  Don't cite stats at all...because you can't have it both ways.

I'm not comparing players.  I'm just pointing out what I feel is an interesting observation about human nature.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 03:35:17 PM by carmineabbatiello »

Re: Head coaches Post Louie
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2015, 03:35:40 PM »
Exactly.... Baylor had players murder each other and a coach cover it up.... they bounced back just fine.. 

They also pay players.

 Amazing that they don't get caught too, huh... We get caught for paying a crappy back up center $300 a week. ...go figure

Their players don't hold press conferences to tell the world about the payments.