Lavin's Seniors vs. Norm's Seniors

Which team had the better players?

Norm's team was much more balanced. Hate to say it, but Norm did a better job recruiting than Lavin. Lavin's players had a much higher ceiling, but clearly hasn't reached their potential.

We currently have only six Big East level players on the roster. That is a poor job of recruiting.

Norms. No matter what the situation, I found it easier to root for them. I take Hardy over anyone on this current roster

Norms. No matter what the situation, I found it easier to root for them. I take Hardy over anyone on this current roster

Becuase rooting for Norm annoyed 99% of the three boards that was the reason you found it "easier"

Quote from: Marco Baldi on February 04, 2015, 11:41:19 AM

Norms. No matter what the situation, I found it easier to root for them. I take Hardy over anyone on this current roster

Becuase rooting for Norm annoyed 99% of the three boards that was the reason you found it "easier"

Hahahaha. I did like that Norm had some local kids and a lot less drama than these guys.

Which team had the better players?

Norm's team was much more balanced. Hate to say it, but Norm did a better job recruiting than Lavin. Lavin's players had a much higher ceiling, but clearly hasn't reached their potential.

How many of these guys would have played 5 years ago: Harrison definitely and this year's version of Pointer, and maybe Obekpa and Jordan, depending on what day of the week it was. How many of Norm's guys would start on this team. Pretty much all of them. Hardy, Brownlee, Kennedy, and Horne, who's loads better than Greene. Boothe > Branch. Evans and Burrell > JDLR and Ablivicovitch. I think no contest.

Quote from: SJUFAN on February 04, 2015, 11:35:56 AM

Which team had the better players?

Norm's team was much more balanced. Hate to say it, but Norm did a better job recruiting than Lavin. Lavin's players had a much higher ceiling, but clearly hasn't reached their potential.

How many of these guys would have played 5 years ago: Harrison definitely and this year's version of Pointer, and maybe Obekpa and Jordan, depending on what day of the week it was. How many of Norm's guys would start on this team. Pretty much all of them. Hardy, Brownlee, Kennedy, and Horne, who's loads better than Greene. Boothe > Branch. Evans and Burrell > JDLR and Ablivicovitch. I think no contest.

The big problem is the two best players on that team were the 6th and 7th men under Norm. Have to give Lavin credit for Hardy / Brownlee. That was the best thing Lavin has done since he has been here.

Mo and N Delilah went Nba early.  None of Norm's players did.  Skews the argument.

Let's break it down:

Center-Brownlee started but Burrell was really the center. Sean Evans also played some and would start for this team at the 4.
Obekpa is a game changer on D but Brownlee / Burrell get the edge.
EDGE NORM GUYS

Power forward-Polee was basically a gimmick starter but he played well. Brownlee played great
Pointer is palying unbelievably but if you took Brownlee of that team and replaced him with Pointer would we be the same or better? I say no but giving this a tie.
EDGE TIE

Small Forward-DJ Kennedy vs No one.
HUUUUUUUUGE EDGE NORM GUYS

Shooting guard-Paris Horne is better than Phil Greene  but Harrison is much better than Horne.
EDGE Lavin Guys

Point Guard- Really a Two playing Point but unless we have a miraculous BET to get Harrison into the tourney, I have Hardy rated above Harrison and right behind Hatten as all time SJU players. Despite not being a true Point Hardy was better at it than Rysheed Drama and showed up for every game to boot.
HUGE EDGE NORM GUYS

Bench-Basically Burrell vs Branch
HUUUUUUGE EDGE NORM GUYS

COACH-Norm couldn't win with Norm's guys and in fact couldn't even figure out who his best players were. If Norm came back for that year Hardy and Brownlee play smaller roles and we make NIT
EDGE LAVIN

Here's how I see the most fair matchup, with the core 6, 3 from the backcourt and 3 from the frontcourt.

Backcourt:

Hardy
Horne
Kennedy

vs.

Harrison
Greene
Jordan

(Taking Norm's guys)

Frontcourt:

Brownlee
Polee
Burrell

vs.

Pointer
Obekpa
?? Alibegovic?

(Close....)


Bench after those guys:

Evans
Boothe
Stith
Coker

vs.

Branch
J DeLaRosa
Balamou
Jones

(Easily taking Evans/Boothe...both were playing really well by the end of the season.)

COACH-Norm couldn't win with Norm's guys and in fact couldn't even figure out who his best players were. If Norm came back for that year Hardy and Brownlee play smaller roles and we make NIT
EDGE LAVIN

Disagree about the NIT, anyone could have won 20 games with that team, even Norm. Also, Lavin, a proven nincompoop, had Dunlap, a proven genius, to tell him what to do. Whereas Norm had Ralph Braica. Question: would you rather have Norm assisted by Dunlap or Lavin assisted by Braica? And anyway this is not a fair comparison, because you're comparing Norm's coaching of his juniors with Lavin's coaching of Norm's seniors, as opposed to his coaching of his own seniors this year, which has been appalling. Head coaching is a TIE. Both awful. 

Quote from: we are sju on February 04, 2015, 01:14:32 PM

COACH-Norm couldn't win with Norm's guys and in fact couldn't even figure out who his best players were. If Norm came back for that year Hardy and Brownlee play smaller roles and we make NIT
EDGE LAVIN

Disagree about the NIT, anyone could have won 20 games with that team, even Norm. Also, Lavin, a proven nincompoop, had Dunlap, a proven genius, to tell him what to do. Whereas Norm had Ralph Braica. Question: would you rather have Norm assisted by Dunlap or Lavin assisted by Braica? And anyway this is not a fair comparison, because you're comparing Norm's coaching of his juniors with Lavin's coaching of Norm's seniors, as opposed to his coaching of his own seniors this year, which has been appalling. Head coaching is a TIE. Both awful. 

A lot of unknowns here but again I can't guarantee Norm would have given Hardy the ball and increased Brownlee's role. Lavin did that so based off of that I have to go with Lavin.

I expected us to be good every year Lavin was here and have been disappointed every year but one. Under Norm I expected us to suck and be boring. Personally I would rather be disappointed during a season than going into one, so that is another reason I give Lavin the edge.

I said before this before, Norm wasn't going to win with his seniors and they brought in Lavin who took those guys to the tourney. It's possible that if Lavin had been ousted after last year, his replacement would have won with his guys this year, something he can't do. Not a very good cycle we have had here

I really like both groups.  I love rooting for dlo, pointer, and greene.  I loved rooting for hardy/brownlee/horne/dj/burrell too.  If I could create a best of, I would start:
hardy
harrison
DJ/pointer (that one is really hard)
brownlee
obekpa

pointer/DJ, Burrell, horne, jordan off the bench

The real problem with this year's team is depth in the front court and the pg situation.  Even though hardy wasn't a true point, he did good things when he had the ball in his hands.  Jordan isn't consistent enough yet.

Norms team had 3 bigs not counting Coker and 2 pt.guards. DJ had skills of a 2/3 and Horn was a tough guy 2. Lav does not think his only pt.guard deserves more then a few minutes. plays a skinny 6-6 kid at the 4 and has a center who gets pushed around and thinks goal tending and fouling is a big joke. Norms guys easy, but I must give a shout out to DH and Pointer. Both those guys are top notch. I think Branch might have done better under different circumstances. Jordan and Green did not have to get all the minutes they did. 

COACH-Norm couldn't win with Norm's guys and in fact couldn't even figure out who his best players were. If Norm came back for that year Hardy and Brownlee play smaller roles and we make NIT
EDGE LAVIN

Norm didn't have Dunlap, would have Lavin took Norms seniors to the NCAA without Dunlap?
I doubt it.

Quote from: we are sju on February 04, 2015, 01:14:32 PM

COACH-Norm couldn't win with Norm's guys and in fact couldn't even figure out who his best players were. If Norm came back for that year Hardy and Brownlee play smaller roles and we make NIT
EDGE LAVIN

Norm didn't have Dunlap, would have Lavin took Norms seniors to the NCAA without Dunlap?
I doubt it.

Then give Lavin credit for hiring Dunlap. Either way as low as my opinion of Lavin is, he is still an upgrade over Norm for whatever that is worth

I really like both groups.  I love rooting for dlo, pointer, and greene.  I loved rooting for hardy/brownlee/horne/dj/burrell too.  If I could create a best of, I would start:
hardy
harrison
DJ/pointer (that one is really hard)
brownlee
obekpa

pointer/DJ, Burrell, horne, jordan off the bench

The real problem with this year's team is depth in the front court and the pg situation.  Even though hardy wasn't a true point, he did good things when he had the ball in his hands.  Jordan isn't consistent enough yet.

The problem is we lack perimeter players and a low post presence. Hardy, Horne, DJ, Brownlee, Burrell. Four solid perimeter players and Burrell was capable of hitting a 10-15 footer. Burrell was a beast in the low post and Brownlee was great in the high post. All five players needed to be respected. That creates, driving lanes, passing lanes, back door cuts. It makes it easier to execute a offense if the defense has to account for most of the players on the floor. But if you only have to worry about 1-2 players? It becomes very challenging to score against teams that know you. The staffs effort in the 2014 recruiting class was inexcusable. 

Norm had ten seniors.  Lavin has four.  If all of Lavin's guys were seniors, it wouldn't even be a discussion.

If Norm didn't mortgage the program with the most unbalanced roster in the history of college basketball, we wouldn't have been in such an awful situation.  Even Norm inherited two All-Big East players (Hamilton and Showtime) for three seasons to build on.

Quote from: Foad on February 04, 2015, 12:04:30 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on February 04, 2015, 11:35:56 AM

Which team had the better players?

Norm's team was much more balanced. Hate to say it, but Norm did a better job recruiting than Lavin. Lavin's players had a much higher ceiling, but clearly hasn't reached their potential.

How many of these guys would have played 5 years ago: Harrison definitely and this year's version of Pointer, and maybe Obekpa and Jordan, depending on what day of the week it was. How many of Norm's guys would start on this team. Pretty much all of them. Hardy, Brownlee, Kennedy, and Horne, who's loads better than Greene. Boothe > Branch. Evans and Burrell > JDLR and Ablivicovitch. I think no contest.

The big problem is the two best players on that team were the 6th and 7th men under Norm. Have to give Lavin credit for Hardy / Brownlee. That was the best thing Lavin has done since he has been here.

Why don't people realize this?  Several posters--myself included--were screaming for both of those guys to play more and have bigger roles.  Let's be honest, Norm would have coached them to 18-19 wins, a losing Big East record, and an NIT. 

Norm had 10 juniors and his highest ranked recruit and four year starter, Mase Jr., as a 5th year senior and that team was awful. They started off 2-8 in conference and finished 6-10.  Last year was a complete disaster and Lavin started 0-5 in conference, but still finished 10-8 in conference. 

Norm was terrible in every way.  He was 15-65 in conference at Queens College.  His successor, Peponakis (an SJU grad and good guy) after two years of rebuilding the mess Roberts left him, has won two NYCAC titles, had three bids to the ncaa d-2 tournament, and has a winning record.