Where does Lavin rank amongst Big East Coaches?

To say Ed Cooley is doing a good job and Lavin isn't doesn't make much sense. Their teams look very equal to me. I wish we would have won the big east, they did. Great for them. What did they beat us by 3 points? This year we have similar records and we beat them twice.
John Thompson- Lavin was better his first year and better last year. This year is close. I think we are going to end better. Many of you who are bashing Lavin think this guy is a good coach.

Wright
JTiii
Lavin
Mack
McDermott
Cooley
Holtmann
Wojo
Willard
Purnell

I could see cooley, holtman, and wojo challenging and passing that next tier of lavin, mcdermott, and mack over the next several years

Quote from: goredmen on March 03, 2015, 07:18:43 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on March 03, 2015, 06:57:58 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 03, 2015, 06:49:39 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on March 03, 2015, 06:07:36 PM

Quote from: Dave on March 03, 2015, 06:04:05 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on March 03, 2015, 05:45:28 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 03, 2015, 05:34:35 PM

Quote from: Dave on March 03, 2015, 04:49:11 PM

4. Ed Cooley- Close to Lavin in recruiting department but Lavin has been him in both recruiting and on court.

Not in the most important game of both team's season last year on our home court

Guess their record against one another.

On Court

2011-12: W 91-67
2012-13: L 62-59
2013-14: L 83-84 2OT, W 86-76, L 79-74
2014-15: W 83-70, W 75-76

Advantage +1

Recruiting

St. John's- JaKarr Sampson, Orlando Sanchez, Chris Obekpa
Providence-

Advantage +3

Thanks, Dave.  I was awaiting go's response, and then I was gonna hit him with the very, same thing you just posted. 

By the way, it was 75-66 in our second win against the Friars this season.   

In these last 4 years (since Cooley got to Providence) Providence will have 1 more NCAA tourney appearance and Cooley has a BET championship already. Also, very very hard to argue that SJU is in a better position for success than PC going forward as it stands right now. Now Lavin can definitely tie him in BET championship category this season and could put SJU in a better position for success with a solid class here, but Providence has been far more successful than SJU over these past 4 years and its really not that close.

That wasn't your initial argument, but nice way to move the goal posts.  Your argument was basically debunked and you change midstream.  Likely of you. 

IMO, Cooley and Lavin are basically in the same boat (that is even with Cooley's Big East tournament trophy). St. John's and Providence will be even when it comes to tourney appearances by both coaches (go back and check your math).  Cooley has been to one at Providence and Lavin the same at St. John's (they'll both likely have two in a couple weeks).

We don't know who is better shaped up for success in the long run.  In your opinion, you believe it to be PC.  IMO, that's yet to be determined.

Quote

Also, who cares that Lavin won recruits from Cooley if those recruits didn't do anything productive?  Sampson and Sanchez did not take us to an NCAA tournament so how could that viewed as a success?

Obviously, Cooley cared, as he went after Sampson and Sanchez.  I'm sure he didn't go after them to intentionally waste Providence College's resources.  Only you would attempt to denigrate it, as it supports your obvious agenda. 

A) Cooley beat us in our most important game of last season. My argument hasn't changed. Thats a fact. Go ahead and try to debunk that

B) I said last 4 years, which is when Cooley got the PC job. He didn't have a team of solid seniors that he could bring to the tourney in year 1 like Lavin did. My math is correct, your reading comprehension is terrible

C) I didn't say PC is better suited for success going forward, but you can't argue that SJU is. I agreed that this is something that will be played out in recruiting in the next few months. Again, your reading comprehension needs a little work

D) I would take losing recruits to PC and winning the BET over winning the recruits and losing in the first round of the NIT to Robert Morris any day of the week and so would Providence

E) I have no agenda. I just want this program to be successful. You and I disagree about our current head coach. I respect your opinion but I disagree with it. That's the great thing about this country and sports

A) So, what?  That doesn't necessarily make him the better coach.  That's asinine.  Your argument did change.

B) So, now you're putting asterisks and stipulations on Lavin's tourney team, huh?  Agenda.  Besides, Cooley's top dog's on last season's team wasn't his recruits (Cotton and Batts).  So, should I place an asterisk and put a stipulation on his Big East tournament title and NCAA appearance? 

C) That is pretty much the message you conveyed.  Stop with the manipulation and riddles.

D) Yeah....  It's easy to say that when it's all said and done.  Revisionist at its best.

E) You sound eerily familiar with someone else, per the latter sentences.  Whatever. 

There is a difference between an opinion and conveying things like it's the truth.   I don't care about you or anyone else having an opinion.  My issue is more about approach and style that either falls on deaf ears or a few of you fail to know the difference.   

Your posts also screams something entirely differently (on having an agenda).  You're not the only one who wants the program to succeed.  Stop repeating yourself over and over, and manipulating conversations, while conveying them like it's the gospel.  Then, you also occasionally contradict what you've previously stated.   You're someone who would probably complain about any coach of St. John's.  Just a vibe that resonates from your posts.     

Dude, I don't give a crap who is the coach, as long as we're winning.  Trust me on that one!   

A) You're the one arguing that since Lavin beat him more times that makes Lavin the better coach. But now head to head matchups don't matter I guess. You're the one changing your argument now.

B) I never put an asterisk next to Lavin's tourney team. I have just been comparing the success of each program the past 4 years since that is how long Cooley has been at PC. This year will be the 2nd tournament these coaches have been to with their respective schools, and Cooley had one less year to do it.

C) I'm the one that's manipulating conversations? All you've done this entire thread is state that i've said things that I've clearly never said or claim I've meant something different than what I've actually said. Tell me where in this sentence "Also, very very hard to argue that SJU is in a better position for success than PC going forward as it stands right now" I say the PC is in a better position. That isn't the message I conveyed

D) Revisionist at it's best? Isn't part of the argument that Cooley has been more successful in his time at PC than Lavin at SJU? Kind of need to look at the past for that

E) Not sure who you're referring to but I liked the Lavin hire at the time and am still willing to give him a chance. If they win a game or 2 in the tourney this year and/or lands commitments from Diallo or multiple 4 star guys then I'd be in favor of keeping him around a few more years.

I wouldn't complain about any coach, I am just not as accepting of mediocrity as some people here. It seems to me that the thought around here (not everybody but a sizable portion) is that this has become somewhat of a magical season that proves that Lavin is such a great coach, when in reality it's Lavin's 5th year and the talent and experience of this team has us where we should be and perhaps even underachieving a little bit. I was hoping and realistically expecting we'd be ranked throughout the season and finish around a 5 seed. All that said, I understand that the most important part of the season has yet to be played and that the season can still be an overwhelming success.

This is not a magical season, still I am enjoying it. Hoping for much more. Also think Lavin did a good job.

To say Ed Cooley is doing a good job and Lavin isn't doesn't make much sense. Their teams look very equal to me. I wish we would have won the big east, they did. Great for them. What did they beat us by 3 points? This year we have similar records and we beat them twice.
John Thompson- Lavin was better his first year and better last year. This year is close. I think we are going to end better. Many of you who are bashing Lavin think this guy is a good coach.

To say Lavin was better than him last year when the season ended with a blowout loss at home to Robert Morris in the NIT is ridiculous. To make sure I don't get words put in my mouth again, I am not saying JT3 was better than Lavin or had a better year last year, I would call it a push as both coaches had seasons that were failures.

JT3 has been to a Final 4 and this will be his 8th NCAA appearance in 11 years. He's probably not a great coach, but he's a good coach

A) You're the one arguing that since Lavin beat him more times that makes Lavin the better coach. But now head to head matchups don't matter I guess. You're the one changing your argument now.

B) I never put an asterisk next to Lavin's tourney team. I have just been comparing the success of each program the past 4 years since that is how long Cooley has been at PC. This year will be the 2nd tournament these coaches have been to with their respective schools, and Cooley had one less year to do it.

C) I'm the one that's manipulating conversations? All you've done this entire thread is state that i've said things that I've clearly never said or claim I've meant something different than what I've actually said. Tell me where in this sentence "Also, very very hard to argue that SJU is in a better position for success than PC going forward as it stands right now" I say the PC is in a better position. That isn't the message I conveyed

D) Revisionist at it's best? Isn't part of the argument that Cooley has been more successful in his time at PC than Lavin at SJU? Kind of need to look at the past for that

E) Not sure who you're referring to but I liked the Lavin hire at the time and am still willing to give him a chance. If they win a game or 2 in the tourney this year and/or lands commitments from Diallo or multiple 4 star guys then I'd be in favor of keeping him around a few more years.

I wouldn't complain about any coach, I am just not as accepting of mediocrity as some people here. It seems to me that the thought around here (not everybody but a sizable portion) is that this has become somewhat of a magical season that proves that Lavin is such a great coach, when in reality it's Lavin's 5th year and the talent and experience of this team has us where we should be and perhaps even underachieving a little bit. I was hoping and realistically expecting we'd be ranked throughout the season and finish around a 5 seed. All that said, I understand that the most important part of the season has yet to be played and that the season can still be an overwhelming success.

A)  When did I say that or even convey it?  It was only a reply to in your inane post about Cooley beating Lavin last season in the Big East tournament, as a way of measuring the two. 

Dave stated....

4. Ed Cooley- Close to Lavin in recruiting department but Lavin has been him in both recruiting and on court.

Your reply.... 

Not in the most important game of both team's season last year on our home court

Basically, you used the Big East tournament, as a way to give Cooley the advantage.  A one-game scenario.  Your words above. 

B) LOL  C'mon, dude. 

These are your two quotes on this particular topic.... 

In these last 4 years (since Cooley got to Providence) Providence will have 1 more NCAA tourney appearance and Cooley has a BET championship already.

B) I said last 4 years, which is when Cooley got the PC job. He didn't have a team of solid seniors that he could bring to the tourney in year 1 like Lavin did. My math is correct, your reading comprehension is terrible

Regardless, they have both been to the same amount of NCAA tournaments, and Lavin didn't even coach one season.  So, in actuality it is 4 years for Lavin. 

C) IMO, that is the message conveyed.  We'll agree to disagree.

D) No!  That isn't true at all.  This was the initial argument here.... 

Also, who cares that Lavin won recruits from Cooley if those recruits didn't do anything productive?  Sampson and Sanchez did not take us to an NCAA tournament so how could that viewed as a success?

So, to minimize Cooley missing out on those targets and winning a Big East tournament without 'em seems revisionist.

E) Being ranked all season and receiving a high seed in the tournament is all fine and dandy (those were things I was expecting, as well, this season).  But if we're anywhere between a 6-8 seed, and finish the regular season and Big East tournament out playing well, and continue to play well in the NCAA Tournament, then all's well that ends well, IMO. 

Landing Diallo and/or any, other high-quality talent would also certainly suffice. 

Fair point on 'E.'

Quote from: mjdinkins on March 03, 2015, 06:07:36 PM

Quote from: Dave on March 03, 2015, 06:04:05 PM

Quote from: mjdinkins on March 03, 2015, 05:45:28 PM

Quote from: goredmen on March 03, 2015, 05:34:35 PM

Quote from: Dave on March 03, 2015, 04:49:11 PM

4. Ed Cooley- Close to Lavin in recruiting department but Lavin has been him in both recruiting and on court.

Not in the most important game of both team's season last year on our home court

Guess their record against one another.

On Court

2011-12: W 91-67
2012-13: L 62-59
2013-14: L 83-84 2OT, W 86-76, L 79-74
2014-15: W 83-70, W 75-76

Advantage +1

Recruiting

St. John's- JaKarr Sampson, Orlando Sanchez, Chris Obekpa
Providence-

Advantage +3

Thanks, Dave.  I was awaiting go's response, and then I was gonna hit him with the very, same thing you just posted. 

By the way, it was 75-66 in our second win against the Friars this season.   

In these last 4 years (since Cooley got to Providence) Providence will have 1 more NCAA tourney appearance and Cooley has a BET championship already. Also, very very hard to argue that SJU is in a better position for success than PC going forward as it stands right now. Now Lavin can definitely tie him in BET championship category this season and could put SJU in a better position for success with a solid class here, but Providence has been far more successful than SJU over these past 4 years and its really not that close.

Also, who cares that Lavin won recruits from Cooley if those recruits didn't do anything productive?  Sampson and Sanchez did not take us to an NCAA tournament so how could that viewed as a success?

Fair points to success of Providence. As I previously mentioned Lavin, Cooley, Mack are nearly interchangeable. You could make solid points for all 3.

Your recruiting points are very far off though. If Sanchez makes the Knicks roster next year (I understand this is a lofty 'if') then those would be two NBA players produced. That definitely means something to recruiting momentum and the next recruit and recruit after. Lavin has gotten two guys out of school early into the NBA. Kids pay attention to that more so than results on the floor. That isn't my opinion either, it's fact.

Just another post for all the haters to disparage Lavin.

No just healthy discussion and debate.

@mjdinkins and @goredmen you both have opposing views and that's fine. Agree to disagree. Both of you have fair points and neither of you are right/wrong.

Honestly I want all the coaches who make the tournament to be successful this year. It is one thing to have a succesful regular season, but it is quite another to do it the postseason.  We can't have another flameout like last year, that would weaken the conference more then anything else. That is when the old BE and New BE comparisons start to come out and hurt us.

For those who hold recruiting ability against McDermott, let's remember he is recruiting to Omaha, Nebraska. Luckily he had a son who was all world but he does impress me as a good coach, like the way his team plays and competes, had nova on the ropes last night.

For those who hold recruiting ability against McDermott, let's remember he is recruiting to Omaha, Nebraska. Luckily he had a son who was all world but he does impress me as a good coach, like the way his team plays and competes, had nova on the ropes last night.

I brought up McDermott first. I am not knocking him. Saying Lavin is a better recuirter is not a slight on him.

Quote from: Celtics11 on March 04, 2015, 12:35:44 PM

For those who hold recruiting ability against McDermott, let's remember he is recruiting to Omaha, Nebraska. Luckily he had a son who was all world but he does impress me as a good coach, like the way his team plays and competes, had nova on the ropes last night.

I brought up McDermott first. I am not knocking him. Saying Lavin is a better recuirter is not a slight on him.

My post has nothing to do with Lavin just an observation and opinion that I believe he is a good basketball coach whether or not he can recruit well to his present school.

Quote from: TONYD3 on March 04, 2015, 01:02:30 PM

Quote from: Celtics11 on March 04, 2015, 12:35:44 PM

For those who hold recruiting ability against McDermott, let's remember he is recruiting to Omaha, Nebraska. Luckily he had a son who was all world but he does impress me as a good coach, like the way his team plays and competes, had nova on the ropes last night.

I brought up McDermott first. I am not knocking him. Saying Lavin is a better recuirter is not a slight on him.

My post has nothing to do with Lavin just an observation and opinion that I believe he is a good basketball coach whether or not he can recruit well to his present school.

I think he might be the best x & o guy in the league, but he does need to recruit well or it's going to be loss after loss after loss.

Jay Wright
John Thompson III
Greg McDermott
Chris Mack
Ed Cooley
Oliver Purnell
Kevin Willard
Steve Wojciechowski
Chris Holtmann
Steve Lavin

Lists your power rankings 1-10

Wright
JTIII
Cooley
Mack
Wojoblos
Lavin
McDermott
Holtmann (not proven yet)
Willard
Purnell (retiring soon)

Quote from: Dave on March 03, 2015, 03:47:10 PM

Jay Wright
John Thompson III
Greg McDermott
Chris Mack
Ed Cooley
Oliver Purnell
Kevin Willard
Steve Wojciechowski
Chris Holtmann
Steve Lavin

Lists your power rankings 1-10

Wright
JTIII
Cooley
Mack
Wojoblos
Lavin
McDermott
Holtmann (not proven yet)
Willard
Purnell (retiring soon)

How is Holtmann not proven yet but Wojo #5?

For those who hold recruiting ability against McDermott, let's remember he is recruiting to Omaha, Nebraska. Luckily he had a son who was all world but he does impress me as a good coach, like the way his team plays and competes, had nova on the ropes last night.

His location isn't going to change any time soon. Also him getting Mo Watson as a transfer was a tremendous get for them.

Quote from: Celtics11 on March 04, 2015, 12:35:44 PM

For those who hold recruiting ability against McDermott, let's remember he is recruiting to Omaha, Nebraska. Luckily he had a son who was all world but he does impress me as a good coach, like the way his team plays and competes, had nova on the ropes last night.

His location isn't going to change any time soon. Also him getting Mo Watson as a transfer was a tremendous get for them.

Great fan base also.

So I think it's safe to say you have to put Cooley #3 right now.

1. Jay Wright
2. JTIII
3. Ed Cooley

So I think it's safe to say you have to put Cooley #3 right now.

1. Jay Wright
2. JTIII
3. Ed Cooley

So, where do you rank Lavin Dave?