Program expectations + reality

Pete88 is killing it.   I'm with you.  Can't say it enough.  You're living in a fantasy world if you still think NYC is as desirable as it once once.   

I know tons of people who have gotten out in last 7-8 years.  Counting the days until I join them. 

Quality of life.    You should get out more.

Yea, I'm sure it really sucks for Lavin having to suffer in Soho. He'd be much happier somewhere in Ohio across the street from the Olive Garden, and a gun range. This country is filled with flyover states. If you want to live in one, have at it. It will def be a shit ton cheaper than NYC.

The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.

Quote from: boo3 on March 22, 2015, 02:00:49 PM

Pete88 is killing it.   I'm with you.  Can't say it enough.  You're living in a fantasy world if you still think NYC is as desirable as it once once.   

I know tons of people who have gotten out in last 7-8 years.  Counting the days until I join them. 

Quality of life.    You should get out more.

Yea, I'm sure it really sucks for Lavin having to suffer in Soho. He'd be much happier somewhere in Ohio across the street from the Olive Garden, and a gun range. This country is filled with flyover states. If you want to live in one, have at it. It will def be a shit ton cheaper than NYC.

 Huh? Your response has nothing to go with my statement.   Yeah, living on the beach in Charleston SC really would have me pining for good old NYC.  Please. 

You can have the urban filth.   I'll be here on the beach in February. 

The bottom line is this, although Lavin's results is not what we would like, its not bad. Plus we know he will bring in recruits. The guards in this upcoming class is better than the guards in his first class. He just needs to bring in some bigs. Do you really want to take a flyer on a coach after what this program has been through the past decade? If we are no going to bring in a proven coach, and by that I also mean recruiter, then we need to keep Lavin.

Yes, I do, and you're kidding yourself saying these new recruits are better than the guards in Lavin's first class. That first class is Lavin's greatest accomplishment at St.John's. Brandon Sampson is a top 60 recruit. Very good. The other two are not in the top 100.

As of now, we have one player (probably) capable of playing in the BE. Brandon Sampson.
Alibegovic, Delarosa, Balamou, Jones and Stewart look overmatched the second they step on the court. Between the 5 of them, they couldn't put together one solid BE game against ANY opponent.

Lavin doesn't deserve the rebuilding year he's setting us up to go through. It doesn't matter if he brings in more players. He'll be the one teaching them life lessons, and ruining our season. He doesn't know what he's doing. He has no control over his program. Let him go back to Califoria. He can coach San Francisco, or Pepperdine. They'll love his bullshit out there.

Quote from: Poison on March 22, 2015, 02:52:29 PM

Quote from: boo3 on March 22, 2015, 02:00:49 PM

Pete88 is killing it.   I'm with you.  Can't say it enough.  You're living in a fantasy world if you still think NYC is as desirable as it once once.   

I know tons of people who have gotten out in last 7-8 years.  Counting the days until I join them. 

Quality of life.    You should get out more.

Yea, I'm sure it really sucks for Lavin having to suffer in Soho. He'd be much happier somewhere in Ohio across the street from the Olive Garden, and a gun range. This country is filled with flyover states. If you want to live in one, have at it. It will def be a shit ton cheaper than NYC.

 Huh? Your response has nothing to go with my statement.   Yeah, living on the beach in Charleston SC really would have me pining for good old NYC.  Please. 

You can have the urban filth.   I'll be here on the beach in February. 

Who is talking about you? This is about the coach.

  Well,  proof is in the pudding as they say.   Show me the coaches lining up to coach in NY? 

Best Knicks could do was Derek Fisher.   Steve Kerr decided Bay Area over NyC.   

Free agent players no longer look at NYC as the great destination. 

Before you say, well the Knicks suck,  um. ... So does St Johns.

  Well,  proof is in the pudding as they say.   Show me the coaches lining up to coach in NY? 

Best Knicks could do was Derek Fisher.   Steve Kerr decided Bay Area over NyC.   

Free agent players no longer look at NYC as the great destination. 

Before you say, well the Knicks suck,  um. ... So does St Johns.

James Dolan might be a reason for Steve Kerr to take the job in the Bay Area. But if you're trying to make a point by bringing up one, and not the rest, you're not making a convincing argument. The Bay Area is a nice place to live. It's limited, like Chicago, but it's still pretty nice.

You don't think free agents look at NY as a great place to live? Not that this is proving or disproving your point, but if you haven't noticed, the Yankees have once again a $200 million dollar payroll made almost entirely of free agents.

And one thing you are not considering is just how much damage Harrington did to the St.John's program. People think Jarvis alienated high school coaches? Maybe he did, but that's nothing compared to the reputation Harrington had and completely earned as an unfair and unreasonable SOB. What coach would work for that man? The future of the program will come down to Gempesaw.

Is he here save our program, or destroy it?

Good for Mike Repole for refusing to accept mediocrity. I can't imagine he's made so much money by an it's better than it was attitude.

I think a lot of discussion will be had over the next month or more about:

-Where the program is.
-Where the program should be.
-Where the program is going.

In the next 4 years what are your expectations for this program?

What is threshold you consider this team should reach annually?

X Wins
X Place
NCAA Appearance?
NIT Appearance?
1 win, 2 wins, 3 wins in tourney?

I'll bite. First, I'll say that the level the program was at under Norm is underrated. It wasn't good, but there were two okay years, and Norm did his job - clean program. It was time to change (probably a year earlier). From there, the goal should be consistency in wins and losses, stability, and something to build on every year.

Where the program is - the win totals the past two years are solid, but obscures a few important facts - for the level of recruit brought in, that's a pretty poor outcome; and that a lot of drama that makes the program look less than "clean" (a word that encompasses different things to different people) went on, punting the progress from the previous years. Players suspended, ineligibility - why? Isn't it possible to build a program without the drama that the previous President so disliked?

And in those win totals, there should be a consideration that the Big East of Norm Roberts' era and Lavin's first era is no longer. The new Big East is competitive, but it's not like facing big $$ programs like Syracuse, Connecticut, Louisville every year - or a consistent program like Cincinnati, which is closer to where St. John's should be.

Still, those are fine totals, an improvement.

The problem is that the future looks far bleaker. A coach who has demonstrated a lack of ability to develop non-top-100 players has, through his own recruiting struggles/ choices, put himself in a situation where he doesn't have plug-n-play talent coming in aside from Brandon Sampson and Marcus LoVett - and those are maybes.

If it took four years to reach the NCAAs with an incredible recruiting class of top 30-80 players...

Expectations: build something stable and solid, with a core to build around every year.

The team should expect to have a winning record each season. Three of every four years, St. John's should compete for a top half of Big East finish. At least every other year/ two of four years, St. John's should make the NCAA Tournament. The team should have an identity, give a consistent effort every season.

NCAA Tournament wins are kind of luck of the draw. But being one of the 34 or so at-large teams making the Tourney is NOT.

Quote from: Dave on March 21, 2015, 11:34:34 PM

I think a lot of discussion will be had over the next month or more about:

-Where the program is.
-Where the program should be.
-Where the program is going.

In the next 4 years what are your expectations for this program?

What is threshold you consider this team should reach annually?

X Wins
X Place
NCAA Appearance?
NIT Appearance?
1 win, 2 wins, 3 wins in tourney?

I'll bite. First, I'll say that the level the program was at under Norm is underrated. It wasn't good, but there were two okay years, and Norm did his job - clean program. It was time to change (probably a year earlier). From there, the goal should be consistency in wins and losses, stability, and something to build on every year.

Where the program is - the win totals the past two years are solid, but obscures a few important facts - for the level of recruit brought in, that's a pretty poor outcome; and that a lot of drama that makes the program look less than "clean" (a word that encompasses different things to different people) went on, punting the progress from the previous years. Players suspended, ineligibility - why? Isn't it possible to build a program without the drama that the previous President so disliked?

And in those win totals, there should be a consideration that the Big East of Norm Roberts' era and Lavin's first era is no longer. The new Big East is competitive, but it's not like facing big $$ programs like Syracuse, Connecticut, Louisville every year - or a consistent program like Cincinnati, which is closer to where St. John's should be.

Still, those are fine totals, an improvement.

The problem is that the future looks far bleaker. A coach who has demonstrated a lack of ability to develop non-top-100 players has, through his own recruiting struggles/ choices, put himself in a situation where he doesn't have plug-n-play talent coming in aside from Brandon Sampson and Marcus LoVett - and those are maybes.

If it took four years to reach the NCAAs with an incredible recruiting class of top 30-80 players...

Expectations: build something stable and solid, with a core to build around every year.

The team should expect to have a winning record each season. Three of every four years, St. John's should compete for a top half of Big East finish. At least every other year/ two of four years, St. John's should make the NCAA Tournament. The team should have an identity, give a consistent effort every season.

NCAA Tournament wins are kind of luck of the draw. But being one of the 34 or so at-large teams making the Tourney is NOT.

What specifically were the two good years that St.John's had under Norm? I only remember 6 terrible seasons.

Oh wait, 2010 was a good year. That's the year they finally fired him.

I honestly have zero expectations for this program. 

How folks can seriously expect to make the tournament on a regular basis is crazy.  We've made it 3 times I'm 15 years.

The reality is the program has a much national exposure as its had in 2 decades. 

I'm not convinced blowing it up is a smart move at all. 

If it happens, so be it.   Just be prepared to be irrelevant until the 2020s.

I honestly have zero expectations for this program. 

How folks can seriously expect to make the tournament on a regular basis is crazy.  We've made it 3 times I'm 15 years.

The reality is the program has a much national exposure as its had in 2 decades. 

I'm not convinced blowing it up is a smart move at all. 

If it happens, so be it.   Just be prepared to be irrelevant until the 2020s.

St.John's could have hired John Calipari. They could have hired Jay Wright. There is an endless list of coaches who wanted this job, and didn't get it. Harrington is what you are not considering. He came to this school with the mission of making St.John's a well rounded University that was known for more than basketball.

With his behavior regarding Fran Fraschilla, Mike Jarvis and Norm Roberts, what coach would come here?

 Can't change the past.  Move on  coulda woulda shoulda.   This program hasn't made a right decision in a long time.  Lavins hiring was pretty much universal in being a positive. 5 years later ... Some good points, some bad points. 

Question is, do you trust these guys to make the right decision if they were to blow up the basketball program.  Sorry.  I don't have blind faith in these guys. 

 Repole hired Lavin right?  Now everyone hates the move, including Repole himself?  So we are going to let him try again? all those in favor of firing Steve,  would agree Repole made a bad call, so lets give him a Mulligan?    I have serious doubts the guy knows what he's doing.   This isn't horse racing.

Can't change the past.  Move on  coulda woulda shoulda.   This program hasn't made a right decision in a long time.  Lavins hiring was pretty much universal in being a positive. 5 years later ... Some good points, some bad points. 

Question is, do you trust these guys to make the right decision if they were to blow up the basketball program.  Sorry.  I don't have blind faith in these guys. 

 Repole hired Lavin right?  Now everyone hates the move, including Repole himself?  So we are going to let him try again? all those in favor of firing Steve,  would agree Repole made a bad call, so lets give him a Mulligan?    I have serious doubts the guy knows what he's doing.   This isn't horse racing.

Lavin was by no means a bad hire. I don't think you're following what I'm saying. This isn't a them thing. It's a Harrington thing. Harrington decided who got hired. It's not Queens, or money, or violations, it's him. All of it. The program's worst enemy is gone.

Not everyone is a NY guy. I can accept that despite whether or not I think that makes you a pussy. Do you really think that no coach wants to come to NY?

Harrington has been gone for a while though, no? 3-4 years?

Of course some guys are willing to come to NY.  But NY itself isn't going to sell a big name coach to leave a big time program that has big time money.   Time to face facts.  We aren't a big time program.  We don't have football $$$. 

Who are we talking about convincing to come here?  People mentioned Donovan.  Come on. He already said no.  He has it made in Gainsville . Had NBA offers a few years ago.  He's not coming to Union Tpke. 

 I'd be in favor of a change if they have a legit , established candidate that can get.  No up and comer from a shit  conference.   Lets not fire the staff and then have this giant open csndidate search.  We will end up being told no but our first choices then end up settling.  Back to square one. 
      You wanna tell me Gregg Marshall will take the job, I'm in. 

Massielo , no.   Hurley , not sold. 

Every other team in the Big East's coach was either an up and comer from a shit conference or had no head coaching experience. McDermott is the only exception (was mediocre  at Iowa St.).

Can't change the past.  Move on  coulda woulda shoulda.   This program hasn't made a right decision in a long time.  Lavins hiring was pretty much universal in being a positive. 5 years later ... Some good points, some bad points. 

Question is, do you trust these guys to make the right decision if they were to blow up the basketball program.  Sorry.  I don't have blind faith in these guys. 

 Repole hired Lavin right?  Now everyone hates the move, including Repole himself?  So we are going to let him try again? all those in favor of firing Steve,  would agree Repole made a bad call, so lets give him a Mulligan?    I have serious doubts the guy knows what he's doing.   This isn't horse racing.

Can Lavin recruit at the required level for sustained success given his in-game and/or player development deficiencies without Repole?

What does Repole have to do with recruiting?

Lavin can recruit when he wants to.  There is evidence to support that through his entire career.  I don't understand your point. 

The good thing about this thread is it seems as though the Tm Cluess talk has kind of died down.

Quote from: boo3 on March 22, 2015, 04:02:21 PM

  Well,  proof is in the pudding as they say.   Show me the coaches lining up to coach in NY? 

Best Knicks could do was Derek Fisher.   Steve Kerr decided Bay Area over NyC.   

Free agent players no longer look at NYC as the great destination. 

Before you say, well the Knicks suck,  um. ... So does St Johns.

James Dolan might be a reason for Steve Kerr to take the job in the Bay Area. But if you're trying to make a point by bringing up one, and not the rest, you're not making a convincing argument. The Bay Area is a nice place to live. It's limited, like Chicago, but it's still pretty nice.

You don't think free agents look at NY as a great place to live? Not that this is proving or disproving your point, but if you haven't noticed, the Yankees have once again a $200 million dollar payroll made almost entirely of free agents.

And one thing you are not considering is just how much damage Harrington did to the St.John's program. People think Jarvis alienated high school coaches? Maybe he did, but that's nothing compared to the reputation Harrington had and completely earned as an unfair and unreasonable SOB. What coach would work for that man? The future of the program will come down to Gempesaw.

Is he here save our program, or destroy it?

Good for Mike Repole for refusing to accept mediocrity. I can't imagine he's made so much money by an it's better than it was attitude.

The Yankees can and HAVE to overpay for every free agent in order to get them to play here.  Other than Derek jeter name one guy who has taken a hometown discount?

So Id say this point is irrelevant as one could argue it's the money (or the history).  We have neither.

Quote from: Poison on March 22, 2015, 04:08:51 PM

Quote from: boo3 on March 22, 2015, 04:02:21 PM

  Well,  proof is in the pudding as they say.   Show me the coaches lining up to coach in NY? 

Best Knicks could do was Derek Fisher.   Steve Kerr decided Bay Area over NyC.   

Free agent players no longer look at NYC as the great destination. 

Before you say, well the Knicks suck,  um. ... So does St Johns.

James Dolan might be a reason for Steve Kerr to take the job in the Bay Area. But if you're trying to make a point by bringing up one, and not the rest, you're not making a convincing argument. The Bay Area is a nice place to live. It's limited, like Chicago, but it's still pretty nice.

You don't think free agents look at NY as a great place to live? Not that this is proving or disproving your point, but if you haven't noticed, the Yankees have once again a $200 million dollar payroll made almost entirely of free agents.

And one thing you are not considering is just how much damage Harrington did to the St.John's program. People think Jarvis alienated high school coaches? Maybe he did, but that's nothing compared to the reputation Harrington had and completely earned as an unfair and unreasonable SOB. What coach would work for that man? The future of the program will come down to Gempesaw.

Is he here save our program, or destroy it?

Good for Mike Repole for refusing to accept mediocrity. I can't imagine he's made so much money by an it's better than it was attitude.

The Yankees can and HAVE to overpay for every free agent in order to get them to play here.  Other than Derek jeter name one guy who has taken a hometown discount?

So Id say this point is irrelevant as one could argue it's the money (or the history).  We have neither.

It's a well known fact that 10 years ago, when they were buying everyone under the sun, Carlos Beltran offered to take less money from the Yankees than the Mets offered him. Do you people really think NY is such a hole? If it's a such a hole why is it so expensive to live here?

In addition, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams and Paul O'Neill all took less to stay.  The Yankees are being outbid by Chicago, Boston and Seattle because they are finished with overpaying for players. Those examples, which is actually the present day, grossly overpaid to pry them away from NY.

The one thing Lavin has done better than anything else is he sold St.John's as NY, not as some tiny mom and pop school. And that's exactly how St.John's should be selling their head coaching position. Lavin likes a good restaurant. He likes culture. If a head coach likes to go out and kill his own dinner, ok then, stay in Ohio. It's not a fit.

Saying that people don't want to come to NY because it's a hole is insane. You may not want to but quite a few people do. The head coach, as we've seen with Lavin doesn't have to live in Queens. His digs in Soho are probably pretty damn nice.