Slice

Quote from: Poison on June 17, 2016, 09:09:00 AM

Quote from: Foad on June 17, 2016, 08:44:27 AM

Quote from: Poison on June 17, 2016, 12:51:03 AM

Did Quincy Roberts, Dwight Hardy and DJ Kennedy get better because Norm always knew there was something special about them, or was it because quite often players grow up and simply get better just because they've grown up?

So you believe that the under the radar guys Norm identified merely randomly got better. Odd how few of Lavin's players randomly just got better, or Jarvis's. Too bad Mo Diakite and Abe Vigoda Keita and Heath Orvis didn't randomly get better, or Jamal Branch or Marco Borgault or Felix Balamou, we sure could used some of those prize recruits to grow  up and randomly become NBA players. No, I think your's a stupid theory. I mean, they did grow up and get better, but they had to have somewhere to get better from and pretty clearly Norm saw it. That's why he's been recruiting at the highest levels of college basketball for years, for some of the successful coaches and programs in college basketball. Because he has a keen eye for talent. That and his indefatigable work ethic obviously, and his personal integrity, and don't get me started on his warmth and charm, I'll start gushing like a school girl.

If Norm had such a keen eye for talent why he did he start Eugene Lawrence at the point instead of IDK anyone else? He was such a bad evaluator of talent he couldn't recognize it on his own team. Why did he bury Brownlee and Hardy on the bench? The answer is that he did it because he didn't know what he had. He recognized nothing, and simply added as many players as he could because he saw it as an opportunity to save his job. It didn't, because even with 10 upperclassmen, he still had no idea who could play, and who couldn't. He had no eye for talent because he had no eye at all. He was too stupid to recognize anything.

He was a shit recruiter compared to both Jarvis and Lavin.

He was also a shit person, blaming everyone and everything else for his failures. He was the worst thing that ever happened to St.John's basketball next to Harrington. But please, by all means kiss his feet for the great job he did finding the true sleepers out there.

Yes that's fascinating Gene Lawrence and Father Harringzzzzzzzzzzz. Sorry, I dozed off there for a minute.

Not anything of anything you said has anything to do with Norm's ability to recognize talent and potential in a high school basketball player. Not one single solitary word of it. Whereas his accomplishments at the highest levels of the basketball world speak for themselves. Thus does your essay fail. As for your rehash of midseason grievances from 2005: Zzzzzzz. As for Mike Jarvis, he's A the worst coach in SJU history bar none and not just because he bequeathed the university Norm and B, Zzzzzzzzzzz. And as for Lavin, he's a buffoon who managed to gull the rubes, and by rubes I mean you and your ilk, and by your ilk I mean there's one of you born every minute.

Why does he get all of the blame for how his students behaved?

And yes, again, there's one of me born every minute who would rather watch us come back in thrilling fashion to beat Duke, watch us take out a nationally ranked Wake Forest, hold our own with Nova and Pittsburgh, than watch Maryland hold us to 10 points at the half in our own house.

BTW, during that Maryland vs STJ game in Nov 2006, St.John's fans got to see Norm's newest well regarded recruits. His keen on display on the big stage. The game opened with a walk down memory lane as fans behind the Maryland began to chant "Darryl". They didn't do that for long. Apparently DJ Strawberry has heard that one before.

But the thing is Mason Jr, Spears, Calhoun, Jasuloines, and Torres were Norm's 2nd and 3rd years of recruiting. We can forgive his 1st class considering the time he had to recruit. There were some sleepers that he found like Tomas, but Spears was once a top 100 talent. Calhoun, Torres and Mason Jr were ranked between 90-125 nationally. So you can understand what means, that's about where Obekpa was ranked, too. Well, Norm's keen eye saw the brilliance here that no one else could.

Tom Pecora, went to Buffalo to find Loren Stokes, a kid who took our lunch money every f'ing time he faces us, no matter where the game was. Respect. Antoine Agudio, another kid who we had no answer for.

Why did it Norm Roberts 5 years for his keen eye for talent to manifest into an actual St.John's recruit? The talent wasn't simply avoiding him, he simply made plenty of lousy choices when better options were out there.

Quote from: Poison on June 17, 2016, 10:23:32 AM

Why does he get all of the blame for how his students behaved?

Well A because he's the HEAD coach and that's where the buck stops and B because he wrote a book called SKILLS FOR LIFE which purported to teach young people that there are things more important than winning basketball games and to equip them to be the best they can be after their careers ended.

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And yes, again, there's one of me born every minute who would rather watch us come back in thrilling fashion to beat Duke, watch us take out a nationally ranked Wake Forest, hold our own with Nova and Pittsburgh, than watch Maryland hold us to 10 points at the half in our own house.

BTW, during that Maryland vs STJ game in Nov 2006, St.John's fans got to see Norm's newest well regarded recruits. His keen on display on the big stage. The game opened with a walk down memory lane as fans behind the Maryland began to chant "Darryl". They didn't do that for long. Apparently DJ Strawberry has heard that one before.

Yeah, I didn't say Norm was a good coach or a successful one, so I don't see the relevance of this stroll down memory land.

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But the thing is Mason Jr, Spears, Calhoun, Jasuloines, and Torres were Norm's 2nd and 3rd years of recruiting. We can forgive his 1st class considering the time he had to recruit. There were some sleepers that he found like Tomas, but Spears was once a top 100 talent. Calhoun, Torres and Mason Jr were ranked between 90-125 nationally. So you can understand what means, that's about where Obekpa was ranked, too. Well, Norm's keen eye saw the brilliance here that no one else could.

SJU was on probation when Norm took over, after which he was recruiting against the greatest collection of college basketball coaches that has ever been assembled. And also Mick Cronin. So all the actual BE players went to those schools. A kid would go to Louisville where Rick Pitino would pay to have him blown a couple of times and then he'd wing his way to Syracuse where Bernie Fine's wife would give him a handy and then he'd go out drinking in West Virginia with Huggy and meanwhile poor Norm'd be sitting around in Jamaica showing off the state of the art facilities in Alumni Hall. Considering which I'm not surprised things turned out as poorly as they did I'm surprised things weren't worse.

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Tom Pecora, went to Buffalo to find Loren Stokes, a kid who took our lunch money every f'ing time he faces us, no matter where the game was. Respect. Antoine Agudio, another kid who we had no answer for.

Maybe those were two of those players who just grew up and randomly got better? I don't remember them so I Can't say. Maybe Loren Stokes didn't want to go to a mediocre school in the paradise that is Jamaica. Maybe Agudio wanted to stay home and play for his friends and family on Long Island. It doesn't matter, because Loren Stokes wasn't going to punk Jim Calhoun and Bob Huggins and he wasn't going to score 20 PPG in the old BE and even if he did SJU would still have stunk like they did when Darryl Hill scored 20 PPG.

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Why did it Norm Roberts 5 years for his keen eye for talent to manifest into an actual St.John's recruit? The talent wasn't simply avoiding him, he simply made plenty of lousy choices when better options were out there.

No, the talent was avoiding him. Landesburg avoided him, Lance Stephenson avoided him, And Krauser and all the players that went to Pitt avoided him. Everyone avoided him except under the radar players to whom Saint John's was a step up from their usual suitors, kids like Kennedy and Horne, and late bloomers like Quincy Roberts, and foreigners like Jasilionustein, and cripples like Rob Thomas, and retreads like Kitchen and Spears. And everyone else - the actual BE players - went to Pitt and West Virginia and Uconn and Syracuse and Louisville and all the perennial winners. Which is why we got our teeth kicked in for 5 years, not because Norm failed to recruit Loren Stokes.

And anyway, that's your exemplar? Tom Pecora, good grief.

Now, my turn: if Norm has a lousy eye for talent, how come Kansas is so good year after year? Why does Bill Self drag him around from school to school. Why'd Billy Donovan hire him if he is not skilled at identifying skilled HS basketball players?

First off, Norm had nothing to with Krauser's recruitment. He was already in college by the time he took over. Carl is, however an example of a local talent who was overlooked. Kind of like Darryl "Truck" Bryant, a terrific point guard who wanted to come here, but couldn't because Norm's keen eye wanted Malik Boothe instead.
 
I didn't say that Jarvis didn't deserve blame. He certainly does. I said that he didn't deserve all of the blame. Quite frankly, a lot of players had successful pro careers after being coached by him. Players at GW and STJ. That last group made their bed. He picked the wrong guys in terms of character, and ability apparently. He was never known to be a great recruiter. He was always a better coach. Not a great coach, but overall he was a good one.

In regards to Loren Stokes and Antoine Agudio. First off, they didn't grow into good players. They were good players from day 1. Two sleepers that woke up freshman year game 1 ready to ball, and make no mistake about it, they were good enough to play in any league in the country. BE, ACC, Big Ten, anywhere. Norm could have found talent like that. He didn't.

And why should anyone feel the need to give Norm credit for asking McDonald's All Americans to play for Bill Self? How hard is that? This is how hard it is: Would you like to play for Bill Self, one of the best coaches in the game at one of the most prestigious programs in the game? Why yes, yes I would. Great job Norm.

At St.John's Norm recruited plenty of 4 and 3 star players. My criticism of his recruiting is that usually when he landed one of those recruits, even though he beat out programs like Pitt for Coker, and other respected programs for Torres, his Keen eye for talent should have seen that they weren't BE players despite their high school ranking. If you have a keen eye you have it for the top levels and you have it for the mid major/BE reach recruit, too. Much more often than not Norm's recruits were poor choices, and there were better options available. He got lucky a few times, but what BE over a 6 year period didn't get lucky with 2/3 recruits?

Quote from: Poison on June 17, 2016, 09:11:36 PM

First off, Norm had nothing to with Krauser's recruitment. He was already in college by the time he took over. Carl is, however an example of a local talent who was overlooked. Kind of like Darryl "Truck" Bryant, a terrific point guard who wanted to come here, but couldn't because Norm's keen eye wanted Malik Boothe instead.
 
I didn't say that Jarvis didn't deserve blame. He certainly does. I said that he didn't deserve all of the blame. Quite frankly, a lot of players had successful pro careers after being coached by him. Players at GW and STJ. That last group made their bed. He picked the wrong guys in terms of character, and ability apparently. He was never known to be a great recruiter. He was always a better coach. Not a great coach, but overall he was a good one.

In regards to Loren Stokes and Antoine Agudio. First off, they didn't grow into good players. They were good players from day 1. Two sleepers that woke up freshman year game 1 ready to ball, and make no mistake about it, they were good enough to play in any league in the country. BE, ACC, Big Ten, anywhere. Norm could have found talent like that. He didn't.

And why should anyone feel the need to give Norm credit for asking McDonald's All Americans to play for Bill Self? How hard is that? This is how hard it is: Would you like to play for Bill Self, one of the best coaches in the game at one of the most prestigious programs in the game? Why yes, yes I would. Great job Norm.

At St.John's Norm recruited plenty of 4 and 3 star players. My criticism of his recruiting is that usually when he landed one of those recruits, even though he beat out programs like Pitt for Coker, and other respected programs for Torres, his Keen eye for talent should have seen that they weren't BE players despite their high school ranking. If you have a keen eye you have it for the top levels and you have it for the mid major/BE reach recruit, too. Much more often than not Norm's recruits were poor choices, and there were better options available. He got lucky a few times, but what BE over a 6 year period didn't get lucky with 2/3 recruits?

I do not agree with your theory that first time HC Norm Roberts was able to recruit on a par with the hall of fame coaches that he was competing with players for but that he just happened to pick the wrong ones. I do not remember him recruiting "plenty of" four star recruits at all, much less just choosing badly. I remember him gathering the crumbs that fell from the maws of the half dozen HOF coaches he was competing against. And anyway it seems strange to me that none of the plenty of 4 star recruits he signed randomly got better like the less heralded player he signed like DJ Kennedy and Horne and Roberts and Edmundson did.

Re Malik Boothe, he was a year older than Truck Bryant, so I don't take your point. And anyway perhaps Malik Boothe might have been more successful if he was passing to Quincy Douby, an NBA player who wanted to come to SJU his dream school in the worst way, except Mike Jarvis's keen eye wanted Tyler Jones instead. See how easy that game is to play?

Re Ricky Torres, I checked, he was the 102nd ranked player in his class. Dele Coker was ranked 81st in 2007. In 2007 Syracuse signed Jonny Flynn, Antonio Jardine, Rick Jackson and Donte Green, Georgetown signed Austin Freeman and Chris Smith, Nova signed Coreys Fisher and Stokes, and Pitt signed Dejaun Blair. Saint John's signed Coker and also the great Mike Cavataio. You are free to believe that Norm Roberts couldn't tell the difference between Johnny Flynn and Mike Cavataio and just happened to pick the wrong one, but I think that unlikely.

Neither do I believe Norm would have been more successful if he had recruited on a par with giant nothing burger Tom Pecora, who was a mere 20 games over .500 at Hofstra, has lost 30 games more than he won over his mid major coaching career, and never made the NCAA tournament in 15 tears. Tom Pecora - how'd you put it? "What [coach] over a 6 year period didn't get lucky with 2/3 recruits" - is just about the one bullet SJU has managed to dodge in my lifetime. And this despite his bitch slapping of Steve Lavin at Rose Hill in one of the most monumental collapses in college basketball over the past 25 years.

Re Norm, I do not understand why the plenty of 4 star players Norm recruits at Kansas are not randomly not as bad as the plenty of 4 star players he recruited at SJU. Neither do I understand why Hall of Fame coaches like Billy Donovan and Bill Self keep him around if he cannot recognize basketball talent. I notice you carefully avoided that question. That is, why would coaches whose livelihood depends on the procurement of talented high school athletes employ a person who was unable to recognize it when there are so many others who can who would like nothing more than to work for a HOF coach at a perennial national championship contender.

Finally re the repulsive Mike Jarvis, he travels around the country giving speeches about leadership, he has written a book about leadership, and he has a website where he describes himself as a mentor and an educator. That's why he gets all the blame. Because he inherited from his predecessor an NCAA tournament team and bequeathed to his successor a 6 win team on NCAA probation and facing the death penalty from Father Harrington and all the while that was happening assured anyone who would listen that he was a man of impeccable integrity to whom there were more important things than winning. If not for Mike Jarvis there would never have been Norm Roberts. That's why.

Quote from: Scheppy on June 17, 2016, 08:03:53 AM

How come nobody answer the question how good of a coach Slice was at Manhattan and how did he recruit there.

Fran did alright there in recruiting and coaching
Norm brought more impact recruits to Kansas than Slice has ever did anywhere

Fran did more than alright at Manhattan. They were a BE level when he coached there. They beat the snot out of Oklahoma.

Did Rob Thomas, Derwin Kitchen, Aaron Spears, Rickey Torres, Anthony Mason Jr and Dele Coker all fail for the same reason? No. The fact is that they were choices that Norm made, when he could made better ones. His biggest flaw as a professional was his judgement.

His judgement in recruiting is one example of the worst professional judgement I've ever seen in college basketball.

Guys like Kennedy weren't sleepers. He was a 4 star recruit. He played like one. Not every 4 star recruit was a bust. Most of them were, but Kennedy was the lone 4 year exception.

In regards to Jarvis, he inherited very talented players. We all know that. And don't get me wrong, I don't like the man. He's not who I wanted to coach my team. However, to call him out as someone who doesn't have integrity because of one concrete example is unfair considering that quality institutions such as BU, GW and STJ for the first 4 years he was with us is didn't see anything of the sort from Jarvis. He was exactly what he claimed to be for most of his career. The situation at STJ went to hell after Jarvis was fired on Christmas Eve by a man who should be in the early stages of a significant prison term for stealing.

Jarvis taught his life lessons, or skills for life long before St.John's. The decisions that Abe Keita, Grady Reynolds and Elijah Ingram made shouldn't erase his entire body of work. No one thought to say how can Jarvis recruit a disgusting thug like Ingram from St.Anthony's. At the time, we were all thrilled with that choice. Did Grady Reynolds or Abe Keita have criminal records that should have been a red flag for Jarvis? No. Actually, even the great Jim Calhoun had no issue signing Caron Butler, and that guy had a record.

And Jarvis cannot be held entirely accountable for giving Norm Roberts a 6 win team, because he wasn't the coach of that team for 2/3 of the season. It was a bad team. In this particular case, he recruited lazy, arrogant thugs who simply weren't interested in working on their games, but had they cared, guys like Willie Shaw and Eric King could have been 1st team all BE players. Jarvis picked them, but at 18, you may be young, but if you're not interested in working hard, the coach can't force you to.

Quote from: Poison on June 18, 2016, 11:37:44 AM

Did Rob Thomas, Derwin Kitchen, Aaron Spears, Rickey Torres, Anthony Mason Jr and Dele Coker all fail for the same reason? No. The fact is that they were choices that Norm made, when he could made better ones. His biggest flaw as a professional was his judgement.

Ron Thomas was a cripple, Spears and Kitchen were chances taken by a guy who needed to take chances, Torres was what he was, and Mason was pretty good when he wasn't injured which he often was. I had high hopes for Coker who I thought was ill used and poorly coached.

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His judgement in recruiting is one example of the worst professional judgement I've ever seen in college basketball.

Okay well Bill Self and Bill Donovan disagree with you, so we'll call that a draw.

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Guys like Kennedy weren't sleepers. He was a 4 star recruit. He played like one. Not every 4 star recruit was a bust. Most of them were, but Kennedy was the lone 4 year exception.

Kennedy was not a four star recruit. He was a three star, ranked 134th in the country and 36th at his position.

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/maple/37108

The only genuine 4 star I can recall was Burrell. Kitchen might have been. The rest of them were left overs.

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In regards to Jarvis, he inherited very talented players. We all know that. And don't get me wrong, I don't like the man. He's not who I wanted to coach my team. However, to call him out as someone who doesn't have integrity because of one concrete example is unfair considering that quality institutions such as BU, GW and STJ for the first 4 years he was with us is didn't see anything of the sort from Jarvis. He was exactly what he claimed to be for most of his career. The situation at STJ went to hell after Jarvis was fired on Christmas Eve by a man who should be in the early stages of a significant prison term for stealing.

Jarvis taught his life lessons, or skills for life long before St.John's. The decisions that Abe Keita, Grady Reynolds and Elijah Ingram made shouldn't erase his entire body of work. No one thought to say how can Jarvis recruit a disgusting thug like Ingram from St.Anthony's. At the time, we were all thrilled with that choice. Did Grady Reynolds or Abe Keita have criminal records that should have been a red flag for Jarvis? No. Actually, even the great Jim Calhoun had no issue signing Caron Butler, and that guy had a record.

And Jarvis cannot be held entirely accountable for giving Norm Roberts a 6 win team, because he wasn't the coach of that team for 2/3 of the season. It was a bad team. In this particular case, he recruited lazy, arrogant thugs who simply weren't interested in working on their games, but had they cared, guys like Willie Shaw and Eric King could have been 1st team all BE players. Jarvis picked them, but at 18, you may be young, but if you're not interested in working hard, the coach can't force you to.

I'm not going to argue about the Jarvae, because as the kid's say it is what it is: according the Sports Illustrated he ran the 24th most corrupt college basketball program in history. Now, I'm not sure how official that is and maybe the cesspool of corruption he allowed to fester at SJU was an anomaly in an otherwise stellar career. Whatever. However, how come when Willie Shaw and Eric King fail its because they didn't live up to their potential and when Norm's players fail it's because they weren't any good to begin with? See what you're doing there? Because I do.

Quote from: Scheppy on June 16, 2016, 06:43:27 PM

why are you gushing over him

Name one outstanding recruit he brought over to any team

You dam right I am proud of SJU grad Matt like you would be proud of you Iona

Gushing? You keep bringing him up, I havent spoken of that situation in some time.

I'm just hoping we get over 12 wins with Matts rectuits
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Hope you and Matt are enjoying the game tonight.  https://mobile.twitter.com/mabde33/status/744318744512630784

Sooooo does anyone have any insider information when this is going to be done? Its kind of been carrying on for a while now.