For those of you who keep talking about Stith transferring...read this

I don't understand what you disagree with?  Are you saying that Malik won't have value?  That we should just write him off right now without ever seeing him play a game as an upperclassman or ever seeing any of our new recruits play a minute of D-1 basketball?

I believe Stith will be a very valuable asset to this team.  I certainly don't think he'll be a star, but I can envision a situation where he is called upon and comes through in big situations in the NCAA tournament next season. 

I also think he will be valuable to begin this season on the court--specifically defensively.  That role will probably lessen as the new guys develop.  Perhaps his role can be similar to that of Bobby Frasor for UNC a few years back.

I think you are into something regarding Stith.  As good as the incoming players are, they are freshman.  Freshman make mistakes as they learn, such as using their hands rather than their feet on defense and getting caught for cheap fouls.  Also Freshman don't get respect from refs they get quick whistles.  He will be needed in the rotation.  Also as you point out he will be valuable in practice as he can be a focal point of demonstrating for the coaches.  furthermore, he can help the freshmen when it comes to understanding the coaches, what they mean when they say certain things such as nuance/tone/sarcasm/wit/motivation

I don't understand what you disagree with?  Are you saying that Malik won't have value?  That we should just write him off right now without ever seeing him play a game as an upperclassman or ever seeing any of our new recruits play a minute of D-1 basketball?

I believe Stith will be a very valuable asset to this team.  I certainly don't think he'll be a star, but I can envision a situation where he is called upon and comes through in big situations in the NCAA tournament next season. 

It's somewhat strange to see posters who have just witnessed what happened last year and over the last couple - last year the maturation of a group of relatively inept unclassmen into an NCAA tournament team and before that how a lack of experience and continuity of personnel absolutely crippled the program - completely ignoring the importance of a couple of years of seasoning as an underclassman to a player's success. Strange to see the same posters who say eg that just because Stith was good in HS doesn't mean he will succeed in college postulate the success in college of unseen recruits based merely on their HS rankings. I think its because to some the belief in TGAPL takes on an religious aspect - his staff his recruits his system, infallible - in the same way primitive peoples might credit a good corn harvest to the happy disposition of various rocks and imps.   

How many impact freshman has SJ had, ever? Going back to David Russell I can count them on one hand. And suddenly we have 10. Its enough to make you feel sorry for poor Duke and Kentucky. But glass half full: last year the California  player of the year flopped whilst simultaneously the worst freshman I have ever seen play significant minutes - the unheralded Cedric Jackson - completed another year in the NBA. That he did without the laying on of hands by TGAPL would induce fear and trembling in a less righteous man.

Quote from: Marillac on July 21, 2011, 07:26:55 PM

I don't understand what you disagree with?  Are you saying that Malik won't have value?  That we should just write him off right now without ever seeing him play a game as an upperclassman or ever seeing any of our new recruits play a minute of D-1 basketball?

I believe Stith will be a very valuable asset to this team.  I certainly don't think he'll be a star, but I can envision a situation where he is called upon and comes through in big situations in the NCAA tournament next season. 

It's somewhat strange to see posters who have just witnessed what happened last year and over the last couple - last year the maturation of a group of relatively inept unclassmen into an NCAA tournament team and before that how a lack of experience and continuity of personnel absolutely crippled the program - completely ignoring the importance of a couple of years of seasoning as an underclassman to a player's success. Strange to see the same posters who say eg that just because Stith was good in HS doesn't mean he will succeed in college postulate the success in college of unseen recruits based merely on their HS rankings. I think its because to some the belief in TGAPL takes on an religious aspect - his staff his recruits his system, infallible - in the same way primitive peoples might credit a good corn harvest to the happy disposition of various rocks and imps.   

How many impact freshman has SJ had, ever? Going back to David Russell I can count them on one hand. And suddenly we have 10. Its enough to make you feel sorry for poor Duke and Kentucky. But glass half full: last year the California  player of the year flopped whilst simultaneously the worst freshman I have ever seen play significant minutes - the unheralded Cedric Jackson - completed another year in the NBA. That he did without the laying on of hands by TGAPL would induce fear and trembling in a less righteous man.

I just don't think Stith will garner big minutes.  How many impact freshmen have we had?  It doesn't really matter.  We have a team full of new players so some better be impactful.  Maybe those Imps you speak of will turn Malik Stith from the horrid shooter that you pointed out into Kemba Walker.  I just watched Stith over the past 2 years running fast breaks, unable to see 1 or 2 guys wide open on the break. I'm hoping he gets better.  I think he'll offer some intangibles like leadership, experience etc.  He had a decent game or two last year and I hope that will translate to some more consistency as a junior.  I'm not discounting anything.  Maybe Stith will really improve like Chudney Gray did?  I don't know.  I never discounted his value.  I just don't believe he will all of sudden be shooting 45% from 3 and earning 30 minues and 6 assists per game.  Talent usually wins out.

Foad, thank you for being a voice of reason,

That he did without the laying on of hands by TGAPL would induce fear and trembling in a less righteous man.

How many impact freshmen have we had?  It doesn't really matter.  We have a team full of new players so some better be impactful. 

In  Fear and Trembling Kierkegaard characterizes faith as the great leap into the absurd. If I had been clever enough to set a trap you would have just fallen into it.

Quote from: pmg911 on July 19, 2011, 10:19:45 AM

Stith is a "work out wonder" and will never play major minutes for Lavin.

Workout wonders don't win Class A MVP of the NEPSAC.  Read the writeups on this kid from high school.  He controlled the pace of the game in both the NC State Championship and the NEPSAC championship.  MVP for both.
Let's see what the this kid can do when he's not afraid to miss a shot or make a mistake for fear of getting yanked for an upperclassman.

Yeah, now he's going to fear being yanked for an underclassman.

Quote from: Foad on July 22, 2011, 08:28:59 AM

That he did without the laying on of hands by TGAPL would induce fear and trembling in a less righteous man.

Quote from: MCNPA on July 22, 2011, 09:08:16 AM

How many impact freshmen have we had?  It doesn't really matter.  We have a team full of new players so some better be impactful. 

In  Fear and Trembling Kierkegaard characterizes faith as the great leap into the absurd. If I had been clever enough to set a trap you would have just fallen into it.

Not really sure what your point is by asking how many impact freshmen we have had in this circumstance.  Ther will be freshmen with impact, depending on what your definition of impact is.  Will Stith go from having almost zero impact as a soph to a full-time starter?  I have bigger doubts about that than I do our freshmen stepping up. Remember that Stith did play under Lavin and Co. Last year.  It's not like we're bringing in a new staff again.   He had a hard time grabbing minutes even last season.  You foresee it getting much better?

Not really sure what your point is by asking how many impact freshmen we have had in this circumstance.  Ther will be freshmen with impact, depending on what your definition of impact is. 

My point is that most impact freshmen - freshmen who lead their teams to immediate collegiate success - have impact because they have the talent and physique that allow them to excel against bigger, stronger, older, more experienced players, and the maturity to overcome the adjustment between high school and college. Even considering my contempt for the idea that SJ was ever a basketball powerhouse, consider how few players over the past 40 years - I can think of Ron Artest, Chris Mullin, David Russell, and Malik Sealy - have had that combination of wisdom and skill. We've had just as many heralded HS players who did not pan out, either as freshmen or ever - Felipe Lopez, Zendon Hamilton, Omar Cook, Wayne McKoy, Shelton Jones, its a long list. The ones that did were NBA ready coming out of HS. If their rankings are any indication none of these kids are Carmello Anthony or John Wall, who are the sort of player that lead collegiate teams to top 10 rankings.

Consider a hypothetical game between a  good mid major, say Butler or Gonzaga, and a team of high school all stars. Who would you think would win? I'd take Butler every time. Well we don't have a team full of all stars, we have players who participated in some all star games, and they won't be playing mid majors, they'll be playing Syracuse and Uconn and Pitt, teams that comprise three or four elite recruiting classes, of the sort that we're so pleased by, except their kids have for years been lifting weights and playing in their systems and playing against similar elite teams in the most competitive conference in college BB. Being an athiest I expect our frosh to get their brains kicked in, and if not heaven will be all the sweeter.

Quote from: MCNPA on July 22, 2011, 11:32:05 AM

Not really sure what your point is by asking how many impact freshmen we have had in this circumstance.  Ther will be freshmen with impact, depending on what your definition of impact is. 

My point is that most impact freshmen - freshmen who lead their teams to immediate collegiate success - have impact because they have the talent and physique that allow them to excel against bigger, stronger, older, more experienced players, and the maturity to overcome the adjustment between high school and college. Even considering my contempt for the idea that SJ was ever a basketball powerhouse, consider how few players over the past 40 years - I can think of Ron Artest, Chris Mullin, David Russell, and Malik Sealy - have had that combination of wisdom and skill. We've had just as many heralded HS players who did not pan out, either as freshmen or ever - Felipe Lopez, Zendon Hamilton, Omar Cook, Wayne McKoy, Shelton Jones, its a long list. The ones that did were NBA ready coming out of HS. If their rankings are any indication none of these kids are Carmello Anthony or John Wall, who are the sort of player that lead collegiate teams to top 10 rankings.

Consider a hypothetical game between a  good mid major, say Butler or Gonzaga, and a team of high school all stars. Who would you think would win? I'd take Butler every time. Well we don't have a team full of all stars, we have players who participated in some all star games, and they won't be playing mid majors, they'll be playing Syracuse and Uconn and Pitt, teams that comprise three or four elite recruiting classes, of the sort that we're so pleased by, except their kids have for years been lifting weights and playing in their systems and playing against similar elite teams in the most competitive conference in college BB. Being an athiest I expect our frosh to get their brains kicked in, and if not heaven will be all the sweeter.

Agree with your post wholeheartedly.  The point I was making was that while I agree you are right, I don't necessarily see our lone upperclassmen Malik Stith as being the one capable of doing it, as much as I love his fire.  I just am not sure he has the tools to have that sort of impact on the court.  Off the court, in practice and in scattered minutes?  Yes his experience will certainly help.  It is the situation we are in.  I'd rather us have a mix of upperclassmen mixed in.  I'd rather their names were DJ Kennedy, Paris Horne, Dwight Hardy etc, but these is the cardsthat Norm left us to play.  I'd say Lavin has handled the revamp of the roster as good as humanly possible, but then again Lavin is the other son of Jor-El

Funny thing is that I'm an atheist too, but I don't expect us to get our brains kicked in.  I like yourself, don't ever think we "made it" in NCAA basketball with one Final 4.  I think it nauseating that we celebrate it as if we won a national championship.  I imagine the Butler fans will be having ticker tape parades in 2065 because of their TWO national championship bridesmaid appearances.  The sad part is that nobody will likely remember they were even there in a few years.

This season I think we'll struggle handily at times, but I actually thing we can sneak into the middle of the Big East pack because we are sufficiently more talented and deeper than in the past.  I welcome any positive impact that Stith can provide.  Forgive my skepticism that it will be significant with regards to game-time impact.

I think we gonna take some lumps next year, no doubt.
But the program has great things ahead wit this class.

And I think Erick Barkley was the best STJ frosh I ever seen 'cause he came in and played the hardest position in bball like a senior.

Quote from: Marillac on July 21, 2011, 07:26:55 PM

I don't understand what you disagree with?  Are you saying that Malik won't have value?  That we should just write him off right now without ever seeing him play a game as an upperclassman or ever seeing any of our new recruits play a minute of D-1 basketball?

I believe Stith will be a very valuable asset to this team.  I certainly don't think he'll be a star, but I can envision a situation where he is called upon and comes through in big situations in the NCAA tournament next season. 

It's somewhat strange to see posters who have just witnessed what happened last year and over the last couple - last year the maturation of a group of relatively inept unclassmen into an NCAA tournament team and before that how a lack of experience and continuity of personnel absolutely crippled the program - completely ignoring the importance of a couple of years of seasoning as an underclassman to a player's success. Strange to see the same posters who say eg that just because Stith was good in HS doesn't mean he will succeed in college postulate the success in college of unseen recruits based merely on their HS rankings. I think its because to some the belief in TGAPL takes on an religious aspect - his staff his recruits his system, infallible - in the same way primitive peoples might credit a good corn harvest to the happy disposition of various rocks and imps.   

How many impact freshman has SJ had, ever? Going back to David Russell I can count them on one hand. And suddenly we have 10. Its enough to make you feel sorry for poor Duke and Kentucky. But glass half full: last year the California  player of the year flopped whilst simultaneously the worst freshman I have ever seen play significant minutes - the unheralded Cedric Jackson - completed another year in the NBA. That he did without the laying on of hands by TGAPL would induce fear and trembling in a less righteous man.

I was about to just give up with this thread.  Freshman rarely make an impact and for as good as our class is, we don't have one projected first round draft pick out of the bunch.  It's not like we are dealing with NBA ready players like a John Wall or Carmelo Anthony.  These guys will needs time--like most freshman--and a quick scan of the physiques of our class makes that very clear.  Freshman make mistakes and they have holes in their games they have to patch.  The transition from high school to the Big East is huge.  The transition from low JUCO to the Big East is not that much easier. 

I don't see us any better than .500, and I fine with that.  I think we will make a deep run in 2012-2013 with added experience and extra 100+ lbs of muscle spread out between this class.  What I do know is that tough kids tend to see the floor...hard workers tend to see the floor...kids that can handle the ball tend to see the floor...and kids that have experience tend to see the floor. 

I went back and forth with this the last few months with some days thinking this year will be real bad and other days thinking we will be real good.

But now my final conclusion is that at best we will play .500 ( but I'm prepared for worse and that fine ) and the only way we will beat that is if Nuri has a huge affect on us and GG provides a much needed up consistent presence. If that happens it will take a lot of pressure off the others and let them grow.

Their soph year is when I think things explode

Regardless of all the history and platitudes the pleasant fact is that nobody, not even Steve Lavin, knows what this team is going to do.  For now I prefer to deal with what few facts and observations we do have.  First of all Nuri is anything but a freshman both chronologically and by statistical reputation.  He may have some positional and control issues but he does not fall into the innocent youth category.  I did see Harrison play against equivalent competition and his talent and attitude stood out among his supposed peers.  If anything he appears to be a confident born leader. That's our backcourt and I'm optimistic about them. Then there's Pointer who seems to have a similar package of heart and skills albeit a bit of a question mark position-wise. Sampson and Harkless may be a bit raw but both impressed me a great deal in the free form games I saw them in.  Both were far superior to Polee in my eyes.  While that's not a standard by any stretch it is an indication that they'll be capable of contributing at the next level.  God's Gift seems to have potential and Pelle is oozing with it.  Overall I think we have a very solid basis with room for plenty of pleasant surprises.  Given what the staff did last year I see no reason to worry about these guys and believe their chances of success far outweigh the possibility of disappointment. 

Regardless of all the history and platitudes the pleasant fact is that nobody, not even Steve Lavin, knows what this team is going to do.  For now I prefer to deal with what few facts and observations we do have.  First of all Nuri is anything but a freshman both chronologically and by statistical reputation.  He may have some positional and control issues but he does not fall into the innocent youth category.  I did see Harrison play against equivalent competition and his talent and attitude stood out among his supposed peers.  If anything he appears to be a confident born leader. That's our backcourt and I'm optimistic about them. Then there's Pointer who seems to have a similar package of heart and skills albeit a bit of a question mark position-wise. Sampson and Harkless may be a bit raw but both impressed me a great deal in the free form games I saw them in.  Both were far superior to Polee in my eyes.  While that's not a standard by any stretch it is an indication that they'll be capable of contributing at the next level.  God's Gift seems to have potential and Pelle is oozing with it.  Overall I think we have a very solid basis with room for plenty of pleasant surprises.  Given what the staff did last year I see no reason to worry about these guys and believe their chances of success far outweigh the possibility of disappointment. 

Wow!  I'm in agreement.  LOL  Totally agree with the highlighted quote.   By the way, the recruiting guy who I spoke to, in reference to Anderson, at the Peach Jam....  His eyes literally lit up when I mentioned our 2011 recruiting class.  This guy LOVES Harrison.  He couldn't stop raving about Harrison's toughness; passion; rebounding ability; and scoring and shooting prowess.

He also talked about how Pointer seems to be getting better and spoke highly about Harkless and Sampson.  I, mentioned that I was certainly looking forward, but we're gonna be pretty young.... In his words, "Yes, they are....  But, they are gonna be so much fun!"

I believe we'll have our rough patches.  I also feel we're gonna be tough to handle midway through the conference season.   

It is true, there is something about this class, although young, makes you really look forward to BB season.Perhaps its a combination of skill, comradery,and confidence.