The age old debate

Anthony Davis would be playing in the NBA right now but for a CBA to which he is not a party. 

True, but Anthony Davis could have had opportunities to play professional basketball this past year if he decided not to attend Kentucky. They might not have been optimal options for him but he had options. Brandon Jennings & Jeremy Tyler choose to explore their options before the NBA.

David Stern also pointed out that players ineligible for the NBA draft are still welcome to play in the NBDL if they would like rather than go to college.  Options abound.

Quote from: pmg911 on April 10, 2012, 08:53:53 AM

Anthony Davis would be playing in the NBA right now but for a CBA to which he is not a party. 

True, but Anthony Davis could have had opportunities to play professional basketball this past year if he decided not to attend Kentucky. They might not have been optimal options for him but he had options. Brandon Jennings & Jeremy Tyler choose to explore their options before the NBA.

David Stern also pointed out that players ineligible for the NBA draft are still welcome to play in the NBDL if they would like rather than go to college.  Options abound.

A worker over the age of 18 should be able maximize his talents and earn the maximum that the market is willing to pay. The NBA age rule creates an artificial barrier to this since NBA GMs would gladly draft high school seniors in the first round.

The NBA age rule creates an artificial barrier to this since NBA GMs would gladly draft high school seniors in the first round.

The league and the players union just went through a brutal negotiation on their CBA. The age limit was not even an issue.

So the players don't feel strongly enough to stick up for the future players and rhe owners don't feel strong enough that they want to be able to acquire the 18 years olds.

It is just a shame that these kids are handed opportunities to go to college for free and they don't think its fair.

Kahnight....you kind of made the point for your adversaries.  A bachelors degree today IS like a high school diploma in the 80s.  So any kids who go to thr NBA after 1 year, and fail, are totally screwed, because they never got that bachelors...whereas in the 80s and 90s, the high school diploma by itself was worth more if thats all they had to fall back onto. 

The other major difference from the 80s is that there are viable leagues in europe now where kids could earn a lot of money from their 18 to 21 years.  Aint such a bad option, and kids that dont want to go to college should definitely utilize it.  Thr NBA is less of a monopoly now because of increased competition, exposure, numberof teams, and salaries in europe. 

Quote from: KAHNIGHT on April 06, 2012, 09:26:48 AM

I am glad you named the thread "The age old debate" because it all revolves around colleges losing money & Race. If you Polled random people through out the country and asked about the sports age limit I would put money up that more Caucasians would want players to stay in college as long as possible. I just find it funny Republicans who shift funds to the rich leaving inner city areas where most of the basketball talent comes from, with terrible public schools all of sudden care about their college education.

If you look at Rubio he went pro at 14 you think people were like he needs education , he is lazy or he is not physically ready.This wouldn't be a debate if the majority of the top college athletes who played in sports generate which generated the most money(Basketball & Football)were Caucasian.

For every High School player Robert Swift there is a 4 year college athlete like Michael Olowokandi. Just Look at Dwight Vs Okafor debate. I won't lie I said the Magic are dum if they take Howard over  Okafor even bet money to a friend he was going to have a better career! Boy was I wrong, but I was brainwashed by the media since I was a kid watching Kemp , they used to say HS kids are so raw it is a terrible idea.Nevertheless , I took it upon myself looking at the NBA draft honing in on 4 year Mcd-All Americans/Jordan Classic players Vs High School players and there is zero evidence that college made them better. Some of those 4yr  college players numbers actually went down & weren't even drafted.

Especially in the economy today there should be no debate with a Bachelors being equivalent to a high school diploma in the 80s

What I meant by equivalent is my last two jobs since getting my degree at SJU  I ran into co-workers on a parallel  pay scale some didn't even finish high school, some had just their associates others just like me kicking ourselfs in the a$$ for going to a private university stuck with these gigantic loans.
With that said ,if this so call kid just came out of the NBA for a year he at least has enough money to buy a house and can go back to college at 19. He is still in much better shape than a 22 year old with a bachelors who didn't make it to the NBA. And still has a possible of working with me at my job with co-workers who have their GED.The smarter path is the 19 year old with a house vs a 22 year with a bachelors.

Other so call issue
LBJ , KG and Howard have been model citizens for the NBA. Immaturity isn't the issue with prep players.

Skill level isn't the issue the NBA has been having younger MVPs ,scoring champions and DPOY over the last few seasons.

Bottom Line is Stern did wonderful things for the NBA but now it is time for a former player to become a commissioner. The only way that will happen is for more NBA player to become owners. That is why I was so upset when I found out Jordan who used to complaining about Scotties and his salary with the bulls was dead set on lowering the wages during the lockout.

Another idea is making the D-league age limit 14 so players can develop faster against better competition and the D-league can gain more popularity thus more revue and creditability.

The NBA age rule creates an artificial barrier to this since NBA GMs would gladly draft high school seniors in the first round.

The league and the players union just went through a brutal negotiation on their CBA. The age limit was not even an issue.

So the players don't feel strongly enough to stick up for the future players and rhe owners don't feel strong enough that they want to be able to acquire the 18 years olds.

It is just a shame that these kids are handed opportunities to go to college for free and they don't think its fair.

1) The age rule sticks around because the NCAA lobbies the hell out of the NBA to make it so.  The NBA needs ncaa cooperation on numerous issues, and in order to have a friendly partner they put in the age limit.   

2) It's not a "shame", because they're not asking for a college education.   That's like saying it's a shame he doesn't think it's fair when I offer to pay my accountant in tomatoes grown in my backyard in exchange for doing my taxes, or if I tell the plumber he can have a year's stay in my spare bedroom the next time he services the boiler.

Both of those things have value.  No one's saying a college education doesn't have value, but it's not what young basketball players want in exchange for playing.   In effect, most kids in the major conferences want to be minor league basketball players.    And that's what they should be in my mind.   

When we combine amateur athletics with education you water down the quality of both.   

Re the post two up KG, Dwight and Lebron have stayed out of trouble but I'd hardly call them mature.  Howard's situation with SVG the latest evidence of a lack of maturity, Lebron's Decision and KG's cursing on TV as well.  ; )

In effect, most kids in the major conferences want to be minor league basketball players.    And that's what they should be in my mind.   

Cone on now.....? Scroll through the rosters of every team in the Big East and tell me how many of those kids are legitimate professional basketball players, anywhere.? Most of the kids that play college basketball should be using the opportunity to get a free education so they have something to do in life after basketball.

Even if some of them can go overseas and play basketball professionally, they are certainly not going to make enough money to retire on after 35 years old or when their window to stop playing basketball for money closes.

The answer here is simple and straight forward. If you don't like the rules, make the choice to go overseas or take your chances trying to make a D-League team.

For every kid that might be able to skip college and go straight to the NBA there are 100+ kids who are using the opportunity to get an education.

Cone on now.....? Scroll through the rosters of every team in the Big East and tell me how many of those kids are legitimate professional basketball players, anywhere.?

Truly bizarre. Take a look. The vast majority are. Hell, 6 out of 8 STJ seniors is gettin paychecks right now. And some y'all thought they was nuthin but scrubs.

The answer here is simple and straight forward. If you don't like the rules, make the choice to go overseas or take your chances trying to make a D-League team.

The answer you give is not simple, but simplistic. If you don't like it leave. Nah. Thats not the way a free society works nephew. When there is a clear injustice goin on - billions of dollars and only scraps goin to the labor force - you dont accept the rules and say meekly yessir.  You change 'em. 

The answer you give is not simple, but simplistic. If you don't like it leave. Nah. Thats not the way a free society works nephew. When there is a clear injustice goin on - billions of dollars and only scraps goin to the labor force - you dont accept the rules and say meekly yessir.  You change 'em. 

Please don't insult me and refer to me as your nephew - unless that is some sort of slang you are speaking in that I do not know the meaning...

You keep fighting that fight though.

Of the 6 of 8 guys playing professional basketball from St. John's last year year...   how many do you honestly think will be playing when they are 30 - 32 years old.? What do they do then..   they fall back and use the free education they received while at St. John's.? Those kids hopefully all graduated and received their degrees and will be viable candidates for employers in their field of choice moving forward.

What happens to Moe Harkless in his future if he is walking down the street and gets injured (which I ceretainly hope doesn't happen to this young man, just using him as an example).? He has nothing to fall back on in life, and will have a tough time getting that educational opportunity he walked away from. This is his choice and just like there are risks in going back to school and getting hurt next season the risk of getting hurt in day to day life are there also.

Look at guys like Bobby Hurley and Jay Williams, both signed contracts for millions and got hurt in situations off the court and  both guys are working for living because that money doesn't last forever and they have to work. They both have their degrees. ? What are Antoine Walker, Scottie Pippen, Latrell Sprewell  up to these days..? Look at Kenny Anderson, he made millions, retired broke and had to go back to school so he could get a degree and a job.

You can vent against the system all you want but the reality of the situation is that most of these kids are getting really bad advice to not get their education, especially when its free. The reality of the situation is that any type college experience isn't hurting an incredible vast majority of these kids.

David Stern also pointed out that players ineligible for the NBA draft are still welcome to play in the NBDL if they would like rather than go to college.  Options abound.

So instead of choosing to play basketball for million of dollars a year during his peak earning years his abounding options are (1) to leave the country or (2) to play in the D League for about $15K year? I hope this was sarcasm.

I just don't see the problem here.  MOST jobs are not available to 18 year olds regardless of their talent, whether that be athletic talent, intelligence, political strategic talent, etc.  Most top notch jobs require college degrees, or have a certain age barrier, etc.  Proponents of no age limit: are you in favor of 18 year olds becoming lawyers if they can pass the bar?  Why is law school required if there are kids who could just study and pass the bar?  Are you in favor of 18 year olds running for President, or at least the House of Reps?  I bet Mark Zuckerberg, d-bag that he seems to be, is certainly intelligent enough, and has the funds, to make a run for President...but he is barred by his age.  Is that not fair too?

This is NOT a unique problem in our society.  Let's not pretend that it is.  There are way more important problems out there than these kids who are going to be FORCED to continue their top notch educations they would not have gotten otherwise and delay their potential NBA careers.

What happens to Moe Harkless in his future if he is walking down the street and gets injured

Who cares. You don't get to make decisions for Moe Harkless based upon your vague fears of what might happen to him in the future. Moe Harkless gets to make decisions for Moe Harkless based upon what he wants to do in the present. That's what liberty comprises: personal autonomy and personal responsibility.

He has nothing to fall back on in life

Whereas if he stayed in school he'd have a sports management degree from Saint John's to fall back on? Which would qualify him to do what exactly? Sell shoes at the Sports Authority?

If he wasn't a basketball player no one would care if he went to college. Whereas last year 150,000 black kids dropped out of high school. Nobody cares about them. This kid though, who could get a job paying millions a year, he has to go to college, for his own good. Hilarious.

and will have a tough time getting that educational opportunity he walked away from

Anyone can get into some college somewhere, especially a third rate college like Saint John's. Anyone can get a student loan. The only thing he's walking away from is a scholarship.

With double digit weekly practices, road trips and games etc.  even a good student would be hard pressed to get a true education.  It's been done yeah but the vast majority slip by if at all.  Meanwhile the colleges reap in the dividends and probably write off the schollies as operating expenses.  Compared to them the big, bad NBA is a bastion of virtue.  What a topsy turvy state of affairs.

I just don't see the problem here.  MOST jobs are not available to 18 year olds regardless of their talent, whether that be athletic talent, intelligence, political strategic talent, etc.  Most top notch jobs require college degrees, or have a certain age barrier, etc. 

I can think of few jobs that have age barriers and there are in fact a plethora of laws that prohibit discrimination in employment based upon age. There are laws that prohibit child labor; there are jobs that have experience barriers. Those are based on rational distinctions. No one wants a parent putting their 7 yo to work and no one wants a 90 year old flying a plane or taking out their gallbladder. Basketball players don't need a degree and are in peak physical condition at the age when they are prohibited from plying their trade. That is irrational.

Proponents of no age limit: are you in favor of 18 year olds becoming lawyers if they can pass the bar?  Why is law school required if there are kids who could just study and pass the bar?

In the first place, lawyers don't have to go to law school, it depends on the state. In Virginia eg you can read for the bar. In the second, attorney licensing laws are the result of democratic processes and are of local aspect. The NBA age limit is arbitrary, coercive and ubiquitous.

  Are you in favor of 18 year olds running for President, or at least the House of Reps?  I bet Mark Zuckerberg, d-bag that he seems to be, is certainly intelligent enough, and has the funds, to make a run for President...but he is barred by his age.  Is that not fair too?

Is their anything in the Constitution about age limits for basketball players? Because there's something in there about age limits for presidents and representatives. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land. The NBA age limit OTOH would be a violation of antitrust laws but for the NBA's exemption. It's not evenly vaguely the same thing.

This is NOT a unique problem in our society.  Let's not pretend that it is.  There are way more important problems out there than these kids who are going to be FORCED to continue their top notch educations they would not have gotten otherwise and delay their potential NBA careers.

There are way more important problems out there beside a lot of things. Half a million people got hacked to death with machetes in Africa last year. That seems important. Does that mean that nothing else should be discussed? Because there's a recruiting thread I was going to post on. Let me know if it's okay to discuss stuff like that or if we can only discuss way more important problems. Dave will have to change the site around a bit but he's already got the jungle part in there so he's at least a little ahead of the game.

Foad:

In New York, you cannot pass the bar unless you attended law school.  Also, regarding becoming a lawyer, and becoming an elected representative of the federal government, the respective governing body has decided age limits or requirements in order to advance.  Just like the NBA has here.  Since the NBA is a private institution, it is its OWN governing body.  They are not doing anything wrong or different than the examples I gave.

Basketball players don't need a degree and are in peak physical condition at the age when they are prohibited from plying their trade.

This statement is just not true. In general these kids are in far from peak physical form/shape when they are seniors in high school or even after a year in college. Please find me a high school senior, that made the jump to the league,  that was in better shape as a senior in high school then after either working with the college or NBA trainer.

Most 18 year old kids are not completely finished growing and filling out physically yet. Its after a college trainer or NBA gets their hands on them that most of these kids get into good physical condition.

Waiving the white flag on this topic, its clearly a case of people looking at the world a little differently because we can argue the points all day.

In New York, you cannot pass the bar unless you attended law school.

Yes I know. You didn't ask about that. You asked: "Why is law school required if there are kids who could just study and pass the bar?" The answer is that law school isn't always required and there are in fact kids who just study and pass the bar.

Also, regarding becoming a lawyer, and becoming an elected representative of the federal government, the respective governing body has decided age limits or requirements in order to advance.  Just like the NBA has here.  Since the NBA is a private institution, it is its OWN governing body.  They are not doing anything wrong or different than the examples I gave.

Whether they're doing anything "wrong" is what's under discussion and your mere gainsaying is neither interesting nor compelling. Whether it's "different" is obvious: the constitution is law; the NBA collective bargaining agreement is not. Could the NBA as its OWN governing body in capital letters ban blacks from the league? No, because the constitution and civil rights laws says it can't. The only reason the age limit survives is because the CBA is exempt from the Sherman Act. Otherwise it would be an illegal restraint of trade. Whereas the constitution can never be illegal. So they're not even vaguely similar.

Can solve this problem real easily-bring back the military draft and then these pampered spoiled brats won't have to worry about the sorry $ss NBA draft!

Quote from: yankcranker on April 10, 2012, 01:51:45 PM

David Stern also pointed out that players ineligible for the NBA draft are still welcome to play in the NBDL if they would like rather than go to college.  Options abound.

So instead of choosing to play basketball for million of dollars a year during his peak earning years his abounding options are (1) to leave the country or (2) to play in the D League for about $15K year? I hope this was sarcasm.

Yes it was, though I feel no pity for these kids forced to go to college for a year nor do I think the rules should be changed.