Butler Game 2

Quote from: simplyred on February 19, 2014, 03:25:29 PM

I'm not sure why but I appreciate more what each kid brings rather than focusing just on what they did wrong.  This team is playing incredible ball right now.  Each kid is a contributor on some level, whether it be an end of the bench kid who comes in at garbage time or a walk-on who helps the team get better at practice.  We are on an incredible run, yet we are still discussing what the coach could have done earlier in the year, or how far Phil plays off his man.  You guys are ridiculous.  Enjoy the wins and stop knocking the kids.  They all add value to the TEAM.

It's a sports forum, relax and accept opinions are part of the process. 

As is my opinion.

 I'm with you Simply Red..  I'm enjoying the heck out of this.. Critique is part of the deal here..  There are no perfect games or players...

 I've gotten really good at skipping over certain posters....

Quote from: paultzman on February 19, 2014, 03:33:57 PM

Quote from: simplyred on February 19, 2014, 03:25:29 PM

I'm not sure why but I appreciate more what each kid brings rather than focusing just on what they did wrong.  This team is playing incredible ball right now.  Each kid is a contributor on some level, whether it be an end of the bench kid who comes in at garbage time or a walk-on who helps the team get better at practice.  We are on an incredible run, yet we are still discussing what the coach could have done earlier in the year, or how far Phil plays off his man.  You guys are ridiculous.  Enjoy the wins and stop knocking the kids.  They all add value to the TEAM.

It's a sports forum, relax and accept opinions are part of the process. 

As is my opinion.

Personally, I appreciate the counter-balance your comments provide Simplyred.     

 I like that you provide some context when the rest of us might start focusing on the few negatives ad mist a winning streak. (I don't think that's happening now - but I admit sometimes it does).   

I'm with you Simply Red..  I'm enjoying the heck out of this.. Critique is part of the deal here..  There are no perfect games or players...

 I've gotten really good at skipping over certain posters....

So what do you do just read MCNPA posts?

I'd respond but I skipped the post...

"circle, circle.. Geno, Moses/Jackson, Circle, Larry, Mase fadeaway , Circle"...rinse and repeat.

I'd respond but I skipped the post...

"circle, circle.. Geno, Moses/Jackson, Circle, Larry, Mase fadeaway , Circle"...rinse and repeat.

You clearly are a fan as the fadeaway jr stuff was from BEB. If I was on WFAN you would be a long time first time guy when you called me.
 BTW You forgot the infamous Larry Wright playing time campaign
And for the record Greene stopped dribbling in a circle as most of his point guard duties have been taken away. Does dribble with his head down like a kid first learning to dribble.

I'd respond but I skipped the post...

"circle, circle.. Geno, Moses/Jackson, Circle, Larry, Mase fadeaway , Circle"...rinse and repeat.

LOLOLOL!!!

Quote from: SJUFAN on February 19, 2014, 02:48:45 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 01:27:13 PM

Sanchez vs. Gift is a debate that should be had at this point. I agree he's flashier, and has more raw skill, but he tends to hurt the team when he's out there. He's a turnover machine, not smart with the ball, thinks he's better than he is, thinks he can shoot, and thinks he can dribble, and has little to no awareness on defense. Put all of that together and he hurts the team. I mean sometimes he simply refuses to pass the ball to a guard after a rebound. He has more offensive skill that Gift, but he cancels it out with his completely out of control play.

Gift does not hurt the team. He knows he is not out there to score, or be a main cog. He knows his limitations. He plays better defense and does not give up easy baskets. He should get Sanchez's minutes. They are about the same when it comes to rebounding.

Think your being a bit harsh on Sanchez. His biggest problem has been his defensive awareness like you stated but Gift is Dom 2.0 on the offensive end. Sanchez presence changes the way teams play us on defense. I rather him in the low post but if he is at the three point line defenses have to account for him. If the other teams are playing man that opens up driving lanes for our guards.

I disagree. Gift would come pretty close to putting up Sanchez numbers if given the same amount of minutes. And I haven't seen a whole lot of reason to defend Sanchez at the 3 pt line. Most of his 3pt attempts are wide open and he's shooting 25%.

Are you serious? Are you not forgeting Gift played 30 mins a game his first year? We know exactly what kind of numbers he would put up and its not even close. Sanchez shooting 25% from 3 is 25% better than Gift and that's good enough that other teams has to respect. If we compare Gifts first year stats to Sanchez first year you will see that Sanchez is better in almost every statistical category while playing 8 fewer minutes per game than Gift with more games yet to play. Gift had NINE assists his entire first year and ONE this year. Sanchez already has 3 times that amount. Gift has a better feel defensively, but that's about it. 

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 03:52:11 PM

Quote from: SJUFAN on February 19, 2014, 02:48:45 PM

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 01:27:13 PM

Sanchez vs. Gift is a debate that should be had at this point. I agree he's flashier, and has more raw skill, but he tends to hurt the team when he's out there. He's a turnover machine, not smart with the ball, thinks he's better than he is, thinks he can shoot, and thinks he can dribble, and has little to no awareness on defense. Put all of that together and he hurts the team. I mean sometimes he simply refuses to pass the ball to a guard after a rebound. He has more offensive skill that Gift, but he cancels it out with his completely out of control play.

Gift does not hurt the team. He knows he is not out there to score, or be a main cog. He knows his limitations. He plays better defense and does not give up easy baskets. He should get Sanchez's minutes. They are about the same when it comes to rebounding.

Think your being a bit harsh on Sanchez. His biggest problem has been his defensive awareness like you stated but Gift is Dom 2.0 on the offensive end. Sanchez presence changes the way teams play us on defense. I rather him in the low post but if he is at the three point line defenses have to account for him. If the other teams are playing man that opens up driving lanes for our guards.

I disagree. Gift would come pretty close to putting up Sanchez numbers if given the same amount of minutes. And I haven't seen a whole lot of reason to defend Sanchez at the 3 pt line. Most of his 3pt attempts are wide open and he's shooting 25%.

Are you serious? Are you not forgeting Gift played 30 mins a game his first year? We know exactly what kind of numbers he would put up and its not even close. Sanchez shooting 25% from 3 is 25% better than Gift and that's good enough that other teams has to respect. If we compare Gifts first year stats to Sanchez first year you will see that Sanchez is better in almost every statistical category while playing 8 fewer minutes per game than Gift with more games yet to play. Gift had NINE assists his entire first year and ONE this year. Sanchez already has 3 times that amount. Gift has a better feel defensively, but that's about it. 

Yes I'm serious. Gift 2 years ago was different than the Gift now. We don't NEED him to score like we did in 2012. For every flashy assist Sanchez gets, he has 2 moves/passes he tries that are just horrendous and often result in TO's.

I'd rather have a guy in the game that knows his role and is capable of it. And Gift's added defense is a plus. Again, not saying Sanchez should get no minutes, but until he stops the terrible decisions, and putrid defense, he needs to take a seat.

Also, Sanchez's numbers since BE play started are not THAT much better than Gifts in 2012.

Gift has been playing great in spot minutes. His job is to come in and play with high intensity for 3-4 sprints. He isn't capable of more on a regular basis.

Sanchez can do things a lot of other bigs in college basketball can't. Did he play well against Butler? Absolutely not. He was awful but that doesn't change the fact he brings versatility and added dimension to this team. His defense is very suspect but have to take the good with the bad.

Yes I'm serious. Gift 2 years ago was different than the Gift now. We don't NEED him to score like we did in 2012. For every flashy assist Sanchez gets, he has 2 moves/passes he tries that are just horrendous and often result in TO's.

Your making statements that isn't backed up by the numbers. Sanchez has 36 assists to 37 turnovers, almost a 1:1 ratio, not 1:2 like you suggested. On the other hand, Gifts first year he had 9 assists to 58 turnovers. Your right we don't need Gift to score, nor do we need Sanchez to score, but its beneficial to have someone that keeps the defense honest and can find the open man, and Sanchez offers that more so than Gift.

I'd rather have a guy in the game that knows his role and is capable of it. And Gift's added defense is a plus. Again, not saying Sanchez should get no minutes, but until he stops the terrible decisions, and putrid defense, he needs to take a seat.

Is Gift that much better on defense? Sanchez is a better shot blocker, gets more steals, and they are about equal rebounders. Gift has a better understanding of team defense and positioning, but let's not act like Sanchez does not contribute on the defensive end.
 

Also, Sanchez's numbers since BE play started are not THAT much better than Gifts in 2012.

True....but they are MUCH better than Gifts numbers in BE play in 2012.

Gift has been playing great in spot minutes. His job is to come in and play with high intensity for 3-4 sprints. He isn't capable of more on a regular basis.

Sanchez can do things a lot of other bigs in college basketball can't. Did he play well against Butler? Absolutely not. He was awful but that doesn't change the fact he brings versatility and added dimension to this team. His defense is very suspect but have to take the good with the bad.

Why is it a given that Gift is incapable of playing more minutes? My only point is that Sanchez's bad IMO outweigh his good. And I see Gift as a safer play at the 5 while Obekpa is out.

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 07:12:07 PM

Yes I'm serious. Gift 2 years ago was different than the Gift now. We don't NEED him to score like we did in 2012. For every flashy assist Sanchez gets, he has 2 moves/passes he tries that are just horrendous and often result in TO's.

Your making statements that isn't backed up by the numbers. Sanchez has 36 assists to 37 turnovers, almost a 1:1 ratio, not 1:2 like you suggested. On the other hand, Gifts first year he had 9 assists to 58 turnovers. Your right we don't need Gift to score, nor do we need Sanchez to score, but its beneficial to have someone that keeps the defense honest and can find the open man, and Sanchez offers that more so than Gift.

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 07:12:07 PM

I'd rather have a guy in the game that knows his role and is capable of it. And Gift's added defense is a plus. Again, not saying Sanchez should get no minutes, but until he stops the terrible decisions, and putrid defense, he needs to take a seat.

Is Gift that much better on defense? Sanchez is a better shot blocker, gets more steals, and they are about equal rebounders. Gift has a better understanding of team defense and positioning, but let's not act like Sanchez does not contribute on the defensive end.
 

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 07:12:07 PM

Also, Sanchez's numbers since BE play started are not THAT much better than Gifts in 2012.

True....but they are MUCH better than Gifts numbers in BE play in 2012.

1.) I didn't say he had a 1:2 A/T ratio. The point I was trying to make was he makes 2 bad decisions for every good one. Not necessarily a TO every time.

2.) Yes, Gift is that much better on defense. Sanchez is just horrible on that end. No way around it.

3.) They actually aren't. Take a look at Sanchez's numbers since the BE started. Not impressive outside of  a couple games. Better than Gifts? Maybe. MUCH better? No.

Quote from: Dave on February 20, 2014, 12:37:20 AM

Gift has been playing great in spot minutes. His job is to come in and play with high intensity for 3-4 sprints. He isn't capable of more on a regular basis.

Sanchez can do things a lot of other bigs in college basketball can't. Did he play well against Butler? Absolutely not. He was awful but that doesn't change the fact he brings versatility and added dimension to this team. His defense is very suspect but have to take the good with the bad.

Why is it a given that Gift is incapable of playing more minutes? My only point is that Sanchez's bad IMO outweigh his good. And I see Gift as a safer play at the 5 while Obekpa is out.

He isn't incapable but wouldn't really be effective. What does he offer?

At times Gift will have to be leaned on during Obekpa's absence but long term he tops out at 6mpg as he should.

I particularly enjoyed the 1 on 3 "fastbreak" where he shot the ball off the side of the backboard.

I said he drove to the hoop 3 or 4 times.  I didn't say it was particularly successful.

He did commit a foul so kudos for actually trying to play D

PHIL GREENE IS OUR BEST GUARD DEFENSIVELY AND ONE OF HIS VALUABLE ROLES ON THE TEAM IS THAT OF DEFENSIVE STOPPER!  It doesn't matter either that I recognize it.  What's more important is that Hollywood and Whitesall recognize it.  Against Providence he guards Cotton.  Against SH he guarded Gibbs in the first half, holding him to 0 for 7 shooting and 3 points total.  Lavin switched him off Gibbs to Fuquan to start the second half since he had been getting off in the first half.  Against Georgetown second time, Mean Joe gets the call on Smith-Rivera since he smoked us for 31 first game on 6 for 7 from downtown.  Against Butler he's on Dunham. and so on and so on and so on...

Rysheed certainly has the physical tools to be our best defensive guard,  but he's obviously not there yet.  We're 27 games in and last night he spent large chunks of the first half on the bench in foul trouble and portions of the second half as well.  He's reach city and too valuable offensively to guard the opponents best for extended periods.  3'lo's too slow for the job, also no stranger to foul trouble and his defense is more gamble, steals and block, than shut down.  The Aggie hasn't shown much defensively to date. 

So there you have it. Thems the facts.

Triangle did seem slower than usual last night as he did get beat to the basket a couple of times.  I was surprised.  But than again, he was part of an equal guard rotation with Rysheed and 3'lo and the opposition scored 52 points!  So who am I to complain. 

A lot has been made of the improved offense recently.  But this Renaissance were having is more defensively driven than anything else - and make no mistake about it - Phil Greene is at the heart of it.  But don't believe me...ask Lavin. Or better yet...just take a look at who's guarding whom when we're in man!

Quote from: paultzman on February 19, 2014, 02:29:32 PM

Quote from: we are sju on February 19, 2014, 02:23:16 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 19, 2014, 02:15:18 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 11:59:35 AM

*I almost lost count from the shock of when Phil drove the lane.  But I was able to restart my count.

Drove to the hole 3 or 4 times yesterday.  Constantly improving and adding to his arsenal.  Respect yo!

I particularly enjoyed the 1 on 3 "fastbreak" where he shot the ball off the side of the backboard.
He did commit a foul so kudos for actually trying to play D

Not longing to engage in a 500 post discussion, but forget offense, On D Phill gets beat so easily off the dribble. Others on team equally guilty, but, between never getting through screens and his man always flying by him, he is such a negative on D.

It is funny but ever since Carmine busted out that ridiculous foul stat I find myself watching Greene closely on D and he gives his man like 3 feet. He never gets close enough to touch his man. Even when his man is shooting a three, he is like 2 feet away from his man when he goes to "contest" the shot.

We must be the only fan base in the country that believes that fouls and turnovers are a good thing!

I spend half my life in gyms hearing these familiar refrains yelled out constantly; "Move your feet!" "Move your feet!" and "Don't reach!" "Don't reach!" and "No fouls!" "No fouls".  Boy are they wrong.

Quote from: SJUFAN on February 20, 2014, 12:42:01 AM

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 07:12:07 PM

Yes I'm serious. Gift 2 years ago was different than the Gift now. We don't NEED him to score like we did in 2012. For every flashy assist Sanchez gets, he has 2 moves/passes he tries that are just horrendous and often result in TO's.

Your making statements that isn't backed up by the numbers. Sanchez has 36 assists to 37 turnovers, almost a 1:1 ratio, not 1:2 like you suggested. On the other hand, Gifts first year he had 9 assists to 58 turnovers. Your right we don't need Gift to score, nor do we need Sanchez to score, but its beneficial to have someone that keeps the defense honest and can find the open man, and Sanchez offers that more so than Gift.

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 07:12:07 PM

I'd rather have a guy in the game that knows his role and is capable of it. And Gift's added defense is a plus. Again, not saying Sanchez should get no minutes, but until he stops the terrible decisions, and putrid defense, he needs to take a seat.

Is Gift that much better on defense? Sanchez is a better shot blocker, gets more steals, and they are about equal rebounders. Gift has a better understanding of team defense and positioning, but let's not act like Sanchez does not contribute on the defensive end.
 

Quote from: redstorm212 on February 19, 2014, 07:12:07 PM

Also, Sanchez's numbers since BE play started are not THAT much better than Gifts in 2012.

True....but they are MUCH better than Gifts numbers in BE play in 2012.

1.) I didn't say he had a 1:2 A/T ratio. The point I was trying to make was he makes 2 bad decisions for every good one. Not necessarily a TO every time.

2.) Yes, Gift is that much better on defense. Sanchez is just horrible on that end. No way around it.

3.) They actually aren't. Take a look at Sanchez's numbers since the BE started. Not impressive outside of  a couple games. Better than Gifts? Maybe. MUCH better? No.

Gift struggled quite  bit at the Garden on defense. It seemed easy for Butler's bigs to get him off balance. I'm okay with Gift getting minutes, but they need to seriously stop giving him the ball. He gets it, by chance happens to catch it, you'll never see it again.

Sanchez just avoids contact. That's his biggest flaw. We thought he was a tough guy. He's a finesse guy.

Quote from: we are sju on February 19, 2014, 02:44:58 PM

Quote from: paultzman on February 19, 2014, 02:29:32 PM

Quote from: we are sju on February 19, 2014, 02:23:16 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 19, 2014, 02:15:18 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 11:59:35 AM

*I almost lost count from the shock of when Phil drove the lane.  But I was able to restart my count.

Drove to the hole 3 or 4 times yesterday.  Constantly improving and adding to his arsenal.  Respect yo!

I particularly enjoyed the 1 on 3 "fastbreak" where he shot the ball off the side of the backboard.
He did commit a foul so kudos for actually trying to play D

Not longing to engage in a 500 post discussion, but forget offense, On D Phill gets beat so easily off the dribble. Others on team equally guilty, but, between never getting through screens and his man always flying by him, he is such a negative on D.

It is funny but ever since Carmine busted out that ridiculous foul stat I find myself watching Greene closely on D and he gives his man like 3 feet. He never gets close enough to touch his man. Even when his man is shooting a three, he is like 2 feet away from his man when he goes to "contest" the shot.

We must be the only fan base in the country that believes that fouls and turnovers are a good thing!

I spend half my life in gyms hearing these refrains yelled out constantly; "Move your feet!" "Move your feet!" and "Don't reach!" "Don't reach!" and "No fouls!" "No fouls".  Boy are they wrong.

Of course every basketball fan in the world knows that a turnover hurts your team. The thing with turnovers and fouls though are they are byproduct of attempting to make plays for your team. There has to be a happy medium and an understanding of when to take those gambles. Rysheed has to work on it for sure. And so does Phil Greene.

PHIL GREENE IS OUR BEST GUARD DEFENSIVELY AND ONE OF HIS VALUABLE ROLES ON THE TEAM IS THAT OF DEFENSIVE STOPPER!

 

Quote from: we are sju on February 19, 2014, 02:44:58 PM

Quote from: paultzman on February 19, 2014, 02:29:32 PM

Quote from: we are sju on February 19, 2014, 02:23:16 PM

Quote from: carmineabbatiello on February 19, 2014, 02:15:18 PM

Quote from: Moose on February 19, 2014, 11:59:35 AM

*I almost lost count from the shock of when Phil drove the lane.  But I was able to restart my count.

Drove to the hole 3 or 4 times yesterday.  Constantly improving and adding to his arsenal.  Respect yo!

I particularly enjoyed the 1 on 3 "fastbreak" where he shot the ball off the side of the backboard.
He did commit a foul so kudos for actually trying to play D

Not longing to engage in a 500 post discussion, but forget offense, On D Phill gets beat so easily off the dribble. Others on team equally guilty, but, between never getting through screens and his man always flying by him, he is such a negative on D.

It is funny but ever since Carmine busted out that ridiculous foul stat I find myself watching Greene closely on D and he gives his man like 3 feet. He never gets close enough to touch his man. Even when his man is shooting a three, he is like 2 feet away from his man when he goes to "contest" the shot.

We must be the only fan base in the country that believes that fouls and turnovers are a good thing!

I spend half my life in gyms hearing these refrains yelled out constantly; "Move your feet!" "Move your feet!" and "Don't reach!" "Don't reach!" and "No fouls!" "No fouls".  Boy are they wrong.

Are u serious? The only people who play good D and don't get called for fouls in the history of basketball were Lebron James and Jordan. That was simply becuase refs didn't want to call fouls on them. It is actually almost impossible to play 20 plus minutes and not commit a foul as a guard. I hope you are just posting these things to bother people rather than actually believing them. Either way Lavin has finally decided to play Greene appropriate minutes and we just need to win so unless Lavin loses his mind again and starts playing Greene big minutes at point guard I am not responding to these nonsensical posts anymore.